Does Doctrine Matter (answering a question)

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I don’t just mean that it is physical in that we have to live it. I mean it is physical in the sense that worship itself is physical. We were given physical sacraments for a physical faith. Our worship involves the soul and body. We don’t just sit there and say prayers in church; we partake in the physical aspects of worship through the physical sacraments. We involve our bodies and souls.
lanman87 said:
What do you tell those folks who have a great love for Christ and live for Christ, but are not Catholic?
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I’m not Catholic, so I tell them “hello” every Sunday.
 
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Thanks for clarifying. Congrats to you on your son and new daughter in law. I do remember you had some questions about the faith when you first arrived. I hope Catholics here have done a adequate job in answering them.

Let me just state that I agree with C.S. Lewis…author of “Mere Christianity”. If you affirm the ancient creed, you are a Christian. And most protestants do.

I would contend that if a person is changed spiritually as you say, they would likely and eventually become seekers of even more truth and at some point come to the fullness of the faith. Either in the RCC or EO Church. But most do not because they are in a comfort zone that they don’t care to disturb.

Yes a person can have wrong doctrine and be a great Christian and go to heaven. And I don’t dismiss born again type experiences. In fact, introducing people to Jesus is typically something Protestants do much better at than Catholics. So it absolutely matters.

But I think it’s something we must be careful with. Gnosticism or modernism erects all kinds of heresy and it’s something we have been dealing with since the beginning. Even the first Santa Claus punched out a heretic at Nicea lol. Because at some point you don’t even know the real Jesus, you know a concocted Jesus that you have created for yourself in your own mind. And that violates the 1st commandment. And I am not sure it saves anyone.

You said":

Does the work of God in their life confirm their standing before Him and give evidence of their spiritual state."

I do not know for sure. Are Mormons Christian? They seem to be the best behaved and loving and compassionate people I have ever met. Yet if you ask just about any Christian out there, they will tell you they are not.

Been a fun discussion! Thank you!
 
Yes, doctrine does matter. What the Church teaches does matter.
St Paul holds it dear:
goout said:
I am reminding you, brothers and sisters,
of the gospel I preached to you,
which you indeed received and in which you also stand.
Through it you are also being saved,
if you hold fast to the word I preached to you,
unless you believed in vain.
For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received:
that Christ died for our sins
in accordance with the Scriptures;
that he was buried;
that he was raised on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures;
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Doctrine (authoritative teaching) is not for it’s own end, it points us to Christ.
It’s a common assertion today that what we believe doesn’t really matter as long as we love one another. And that is a feigned indifference that no person really believes. And it’s a false idea that love is disconnected from belief. As if love would tolerate anything.
That kind of indifference “works” until someone challenges your beliefs about what love is.
 
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lanman87 said:
Does Doctrine Matter? The answer is yes doctrine matters.
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Agreed.
lanman87 said:
However, it is not doctrine that saves us. It is Christ who saves us, not our doctrinal position on any given topic.
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Agree and disagree.

Yes it is Christ who saves us but I would argue our doctrinal position can condemn us.
lanman87 said:
Doctrine is, at its core, intellectual understanding of spiritual matters.
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This isn’t what the Catholic Church means when she uses the term doctrine. At it’s core doctrine is the teaching of the Church on matters of faith and morals. In my mind anyway I wouldn’t say this is the same as spiritual matters. Based on that definition how we live out our faith and moral life can play a role in whether or not we are saved.

I would say the Catholic Church’s definition of doctrine falls right in line with what you say here…
lanman87 said:
But more important than intellectual understanding of spiritual matters is the reality of spiritual change/adoption in a person’s heart/life.
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I would say this reality is what we would call ones faith and morals (doctrines).
lanman87 said:
The Holy Spirit is how we are united with Christ and how we abide in Christ and He is us
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Agreed and our faith and morals(doctrines) are the evidence of this unity.
lanman87 said:
The Holy Spirit living and working in a person’s heart and life trumps all intellectual and religious understanding.
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Don’t agree. In the end we are still fallible humans. Without the doctrines that give us the intellectual understanding of what the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is, we might just be fooling ourselves into believe something that is not true. There is a reason Jesus calls us sheep. Sheep want what they want and need a Shepherd to keep them from wanting what they desire and getting themselves eaten by wolves.
lanman87 said:
So a person can have all the facts straight and intellectually understand doctrine better than any person alive. But if they are not Spirituality united with Christ then they are just wasting their time.
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Agree
lanman87 said:
On the other hand someone can be spiritually united with Christ and intellectually not understand or have a wrong understanding about doctrinal matters and still be a “great, God fearing Christian” who is in Love with Jesus and has a spiritual burden to help his fellow man come to the same kind of relationship with Christ.
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This is kind of a vague statement so I would say it depends. I would ask what makes the man spiritually united to Christ? Is it because they say they are? or is it because we can see evidence of it in their faith and moral life, which is the definition of Catholic doctrine.

I think in the end the argument comes down to who gets to claim what faith and morality looks like? Basically, what is morally essential and what is non-essential.

God Bless
 
Yes, and I would add this…Jesus seemed to really dislike the Pharisees. But yet what did he tell people in Matthew 23?

23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

It seems Jesus was pretty big on the authority of the folks speaking from the chair. Don’t follow their bad examples, but you must listen to the doctrine they preach…ALL of it.

He also does not recommend they go and join the Samaritans, instead, if they think those folks have made a mess of the faith. Nor does he say start your own denomination.

I’m just sayin’ lol…
 
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Also nicely quashes Donatism. Even though they were awful, they still had authority.
 
They claim to believe in Jesus and the Gospel.

They also claim a born-again type experience after reading the BOM and praying about it.

They certainly look the part as the one’s I have encountered were all warm, compassionate and Christlike in their behavior. If I knew nothing about the LDS and I just judged the work of God in their live’s, or what appears to be the work of God, I would be compelled to believe they are indeed Christians and that their spiritual state is great.
 
Lenten_ashes said:
They claim to believe in Jesus and the Gospel.

They also claim a born-again type experience after reading the BOM and praying about it.

They certainly look the part as the one’s I have encountered were all warm, compassionate and Christlike in their behavior. If I knew nothing about the LDS and I just judged the work of God in their live’s, or what appears to be the work of God, I would be compelled to believe they are indeed Christians and that their spiritual state is great.
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If they believe the same gospel, and their conduct is so admirable (I am not arguing that their conduct isn’t admirable in many or most cases, just to be clear), then why are you not a Mormon? The fact of the matter is that their doctrine significantly departs from the gospel of Christ (unless you believe the apostles didn’t care about monotheism for instance, that Christ’s death did not provide atonement for sin, and that one is saved through works).
 
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I’m not LDS because I believe it is not true.

But if I just judge on the surface and not doctrinally, ‘God’s work in their life’, I would have to believe that they are changed people who know Jesus.

That’s why I say I do not know to Ian’s question on Protestants of :

" Does the work of God in their life confirm their standing before Him and give evidence of their spiritual state."

That’s the topic…does doctrine matter. If so, how much of it matters? And who determines that? And by what authority are they doing so?

And then it swerved of into, “Does God changing a person heart and filling them with the Holy Spirit matter”?

Obviously a change in a person is a good thing. No matter how they get there, praise God for it.

LDS folks exhibit the fruit of the Spirit. So do many Protestants, imo. So is that enough, or do they need to be on point doctrinally? And can we and should we know all there is to know about the Christian faith? Or is 80% sufficient? How about 50%?
 
I doubt it, since they think Christianity was corrupted immediately after Jesus ascended.
 
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