Does dying in mortal sin ALWAYS lead to hell?

[Patrick_Cox]

I posted this question in the specific context of another thread, but have received no replies as of yet…

The Catechism says (Para 1472): “Grave (mortal) sin deprives us of communion with God, and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life…”

Para 1859 confirms the basic tenets: “Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent.”

Para 1860 says that: “Unintentional ignorance…” as well as “the promptings of feelings and passions can diminish the voluntary and free character of the offence.”

Finally, para 1861 says: “If it (mortal sin) is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back.” It then says (and this is the important bit): "However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offence, we must entrust judgement of persons to the justice and mercy of God."

So my question is:
Can one interpret this final part of para 1861 (as well as para 1860) to imply that there are in fact times when a person who dies in a state of mortal sin (eg dying suddenly before having gone to confession) will not in fact be destined for hell for all eternity?

I have my own thoughts on this, but would appreciate some thoughts of others first…

God bless

Patrick

 

[Scoobyshme]

I posted this question in the specific context of another thread, but have received no replies as of yet…

The Catechism says (Para 1472): “Grave (mortal) sin deprives us of communion with God, and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life…”

Para 1859 confirms the basic tenets: “Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent.”

Para 1860 says that: “Unintentional ignorance…” as well as “the promptings of feelings and passions can diminish the voluntary and free character of the offence.”

Finally, para 1861 says: “If it (mortal sin) is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back.” It then says (and this is the important bit): "However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offence, we must entrust judgement of persons to the justice and mercy of God."

So my question is:
Can one interpret this final part of para 1861 (as well as para 1860) to imply that there are in fact times when a person who dies in a state of mortal sin (eg dying suddenly before having gone to confession) will not in fact be destined for hell for all eternity?

I have my own thoughts on this, but would appreciate some thoughts of others first…

God bless

Patrick

Yes, anyone who dies in the state of mortal sin always and forever goes to hell.

The real question, though, is whether the grave act they committed was, indeed, a mortal sin. Not all grave acts are. They are lacking in either full knowledge or complete consent in light of that full knowledge.

 

[nodito]

Patrick Cox:

Can one interpret this final part of para 1861 (as well as para 1860) to imply that there are in fact times when a person who dies in a state of mortal sin (eg dying suddenly before having gone to confession) will not in fact be destined for hell for all eternity?

"If it (mortal sin)** is not redeemed by repentance**and God’s forgiveness…

God is not limited by the sacrament of confession. If a person, even on his deathbed, repents of his mortal sin, then he has the opportunity to be saved. The Church says that those who die with unrepentant mortal sin on their soul go to hell, but does not stipulate that the only way for repentence to count is for the person to go to confession. This is why we can’t definitely say whether this evil person or that one is now in hell. It’s also why the Church doesn’t teach that all non-Catholics who have ever committed a mortal sin (and yet don’t have access to confession) are in hell. We have no way of knowing whether they reconciled to God prior to death.

 

[Patrick_Cox]

Yes, anyone who dies in the state of mortal sin always and forever goes to hell.

The real question, though, is whether the grave act they committed was, indeed, a mortal sin. Not all grave acts are. They are lacking in either full knowledge or complete consent in light of that full knowledge.

Thanks Scooby.

Would you then contend that an addiction to something which is objectively a mortal sin is NOT a mortal sin in the case of the addict because the addict is acting without complete consent?

Or would you contend that it remains a mortal sin even for the extreme addict because even the addict still has the possibility of turning away from his addiction despite the difficulty this might involve? So in a sense it comes down to a definition of what constitutes “consent”?

Is their such a thing as a sliding scale of consent (ie which depends on the state of mind, emotion, psychology and spirit of the person at any particular point in time)?

Patrick

 

[JRKH]

Does dying in mortal sin ALWAYS lead to hell?

Yes, dying in a state of mortal sin ALWAYS leads to hell.
The question then becomes what constitutes dying in a state of mortal sin?
The requirements for something to be a mortal sin leads inevitably to one underlying theme. The rejection of God and His salvic plan for us. The turning from the path of rightiousness and Love. So long as one remains in this state of rejection and follow the path of defiance, we are seperated from God and if we die in this state, hell is our chosen destination.

So my question is:
Can one interpret this final part of para 1861 (as well as para 1860) to imply that there are in fact times when a person who dies in a state of mortal sin (eg dying suddenly before having gone to confession) will not in fact be destined for hell for all eternity?

I have my own thoughts on this, but would appreciate some thoughts of others first…

God bless

Patrick

No- These paragrpahs do NOT imply that a person can die in a state of Mortal sin and avoid hell.
What these paragraphs do is try to clarify what actually constitutes a mortal sin.

What one must be extremely careful about is to NOT try to “imply” or “interpret” their way out of Hell. One must be extremely careful in this so as to not become confused or lose sight of the underlying principles of Love, Repentance, and Faith, that guide us on our journey.

If one is fucused on and seeks to follow the two Great Commandments of Love (Mt 22:36-40), and stay focused only on pleasing God and Serving God and “putting on Christ”, submitting our will to His - - If this is what one seeks, then one cannot fall into the trap of mortal sin.
If - on the other hand, one is NOT committed to following the Great commandments, and instead focuses on “avoiding sin” one is at far greater risk. For by focusing on “sin” and trying to “imply” or “interpret” what is or is not a sin, one gives teh devil many opportunities to draw one away from Chirst.

Peace
James

 

[Patrick_Cox]

God is not limited by the sacrament of confession. If a person, even on his deathbed, repents of his mortal sin, then he has the opportunity to be saved. The Church says that those who die with unrepentant mortal sin on their soul go to hell, but does not stipulate that the only way for repentence to count is for the person to go to confession. This is why we can’t definitely say whether this evil person or that one is now in hell. It’s also why the Church doesn’t teach that all non-Catholics who have ever committed a mortal sin (and yet don’t have access to confession) are in hell. We have no way of knowing whether they reconciled to God prior to death.

Thanks Nodito.

OK - so if an addicted person is desperate NOT to commit the sin they are addicted to (eg certain sexual sins, lust etc), yet they fall into that temptation and in a moment of weakness can not stop themselves… and they are immediately thereafter repentant - and this is a cycle that repeats itself over and over… What then?

In their heart they are constantly and genuinely repentant for what they have done and may even be repenting the very instant their sin occurs (again - I think for example of the sin of lust which can happen in an instant). And were they then to die very suddenly say in an accident… is that constant sadness and repentance they carry in their heart for the particular sin they regularly commit, sufficient to attract the loving mercy of God such that God will not send that soul to eternal damnation?

In my previous post to Scooby I suggested it perhaps come down to a definition of “consent”. Perhaps my post here would be contingent upon a definition of “repentance”?

Not trying to ask you an unfair question - just interested in people’s opinions on this…

Thanks and God bless

Patrick

 

[Patrick_Cox]

Yes, dying in a state of mortal sin ALWAYS leads to hell.
The question then becomes what constitutes dying in a state of mortal sin?
The requirements for something to be a mortal sin leads inevitably to one underlying theme. The rejection of God and His salvic plan for us. The turning from the path of rightiousness and Love. So long as one remains in this state of rejection and follow the path of defiance, we are seperated from God and if we die in this state, hell is our chosen destination.

No- These paragrpahs do NOT imply that a person can die in a state of Mortal sin and avoid hell.
What these paragraphs do is try to clarify what actually constitutes a mortal sin.

What one must be extremely careful about is to NOT try to “imply” or “interpret” their way out of Hell. One must be extremely careful in this so as to not become confused or lose sight of the underlying principles of Love, Repentance, and Faith, that guide us on our journey.

If one is fucused on and seeks to follow the two Great Commandments of Love (Mt 22:36-40), and stay focused only on pleasing God and Serving God and “putting on Christ”, submitting our will to His - - If this is what one seeks, then one cannot fall into the trap of mortal sin.
If - on the other hand, one is NOT committed to following the Great commandments, and instead focuses on “avoiding sin” one is at far greater risk. For by focusing on “sin” and trying to “imply” or “interpret” what is or is not a sin, one gives teh devil many opportunities to draw one away from Chirst.

Peace
James

Thanks James for your reply.

I agree wholeheartedly with your approach to focus on the good and serving God, rather than looking to avoid sin. I do, however, believe that there are deeply spiritual and committed people out there who nevertheless DO fall into the trap of mortal sin on occasion despite “putting on Christ”. Certainly “putting on Christ” would constitute an immense and powerful barrier to mortal sin, but I would not go as far as to say that it would be an insurmountable barrier. Satan is sadly very powerful and active in this world.

I would also be interested in your reply to my previous post to Nodito regarding repentance and whether one’s immediate personal state of repentance (although unconfessed) immediately after consenting to a mortal sin would suffice to allow one to avoid hell, by the Grace of God, should one die shortly thereafter. I realise I am again doing exactly what you are suggesting I shouldn’t do, in terms of focusing on the interpretation of a state of mind and heart after sinning, instead of focusing on loving God, but I still believe the question is a valid one and would pertain to many people reading this forum.

I genuinely do believe people go through periods of weakness followed by periods of repentance and that this cycle of weakness and repentance is a battle many people fight continually…

God Bless and thanks

Patrick

 

[teachccd]

Whether or not a person is indeed in the state of mortal sin can only be determined by God since He is the object of the committed offense. His judgment is an infinite judgment since He knows us better than we know ourselves. God wants all to be saved so in that context we know that He will see us to the very core of our soul. This kind of judgment could never take place with human knowledge since that is limited. God’s judgment realizes every component that could possibly be realized when finding our disposition for Him and His love.

So, definitively, if one dies in the state of mortal sin they would go to hell, BUT we have to rely on the infinite mercy and infinite justice of our God. So if one were to choose hell we would rest assured eternally that his/her choice was complete as determined by our omniscient and almighty God… teachccd

 

[Bookcat]

I posted this question in the specific context of another thread, but have received no replies as of yet…

The Catechism says (Para 1472): “Grave (mortal) sin deprives us of communion with God, and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life…”

Para 1859 confirms the basic tenets: “Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent.”

Para 1860 says that: “Unintentional ignorance…” as well as “the promptings of feelings and passions can diminish the voluntary and free character of the offence.”

Finally, para 1861 says: “If it (mortal sin) is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back.” It then says (and this is the important bit): "However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offence, we must entrust judgement of persons to the justice and mercy of God."

So my question is:
Can one interpret this final part of para 1861 (as well as para 1860) to imply that there are in fact times when a person who dies in a state of mortal sin (eg dying suddenly before having gone to confession) will not in fact be destined for hell for all eternity?

I have my own thoughts on this, but would appreciate some thoughts of others first…

God bless

Patrick

Yes a person who dies in a state of mortal sin will know hell…not heaven.

But as to what ‘we know’ of that person is only partial at best. A person may actually be in a state of friendship with God…in a state of grace…when they die where as in appearance they may appear otherwise. This takes into account the other various passages you note.

Also God can give grace …even in the very last moment. We should not presume on this of course (though we should live in hope and Faith and trust).

Remember not only can a person have the grace of perfect contrition (which is by the grace of God…not like it is something that we ‘do ourselves entirely’…Jesus is our life) (with the intent to go to confession as soon as possible -reasonably) …but God may give graces in ways known only to him…

But again we should not presume…but live always in Christ…knowing that we know not the day or the hour (as Jesus tells in the Gospels)…

so let us watch and pray as he tells us…and let is always remain in him.…

Jesus Good Shepherd I believe in you, I hope in you, I love you!

 

[Patrick_Cox]

Whether or not a person is indeed in the state of mortal sin can only be determined by God since He is the object of the committed offense. His judgment is an infinite judgment since He knows us better than we know ourselves. God wants all to be saved so in that context we know that He will see us to the very core of our soul. This kind of judgment could never take place with human knowledge since that is limited. God’s judgment realizes every component that could possibly be realized when finding our disposition for Him and His love.

So, definitively, if one dies in the state of mortal sin they would go to hell, BUT we have to rely on the infinite mercy and infinite justice of our God. So if one were to choose hell we would rest assured eternally that his/her choice was complete as determined by our omniscient and almighty God… teachccd

I would support this view 100%

Where I would be careful is to equate committing a mortal sin as being exactly and always akin to “choosing hell”. I think some people possibly do equate these two concepts without exception… What lies deep within the heart does not always match up to actions - certain actions may happen in a moment of weakness, yet may immediately induce feelings of genuine repentance and sadness for having offended God.

 

[Patrick_Cox]

Yes a person who dies in a state of mortal sin will know hell…not heaven.

But as to what ‘we know’ of that person is only partial at best. A person may actually be in a state of friendship with God…in a state of grace…when they die where as in appearance they may appear otherwise. This takes into account the other various passages you note.

Also God can give grace …even in the very last moment. We should not presume on this of course (though we should live in hope and Faith and trust).

Remember not only can a person have the grace of perfect contrition (which is by the grace of God…not like it is something that we ‘do ourselves entirely’…Jesus is our life) (with the intent to go to confession as soon as possible -reasonably) …but God may give graces in ways known only to him…

But again we should not presume…but live always in Christ…knowing that we know not the day or the hour (as Jesus tells in the Gospels)…

so let us watch and pray as he tells us…and let is always remain in him.…

Jesus Good Shepherd I believe in you, I hope in you, I love you!

Thanks Bookcat - I also agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments - particularly when you say: “Also God can give grace …even in the very last moment. We should not presume on this of course (though we should live in hope and Faith and trust).”

Indeed we should not rely on God granting us His grace, or use this as an excuse to live with less urgency, but we should rather work on not requiring this grace at all…

Thanks for all your replies (thus far)…

God bless

Patrick

 

[Robertanthony]

One commits a mortal sin who commits a sin which is grave matter, one knows the gravity of the act, and gives free and full consent when committing it. Those are the criteria. The 2nd and 3rd criteria can only, IMHO, be judged by God. But if God does indeed rule that a person did commit a mortal sin and that he/she dies unrepentant, then his/her eternal fate (hell) is sealed. If I may I’d like to add a level of complexity to this: if someone dies with one unrepented mortal sin, but dies laying down his life for someone else, and he knew that he could very well lose his life if he did what he did (I leave fictional scenario up to you). Do “Love covers a multitude of sin” or “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his brother’s life” change the condemnation to hell?

 

[JRKH]

Thanks Nodito.

OK - so if an addicted person is desperate NOT to commit the sin they are addicted to (eg certain sexual sins, lust etc), yet they fall into that temptation and in a moment of weakness can not stop themselves… and they are immediately thereafter repentant - and this is a cycle that repeats itself over and over… What then?

In their heart they are constantly and genuinely repentant for what they have done and may even be repenting the very instant their sin occurs (again - I think for example of the sin of lust which can happen in an instant). And were they then to die very suddenly say in an accident… is that constant sadness and repentance they carry in their heart for the particular sin they regularly commit, sufficient to attract the loving mercy of God such that God will not send that soul to eternal damnation?

In my previous post to Scooby I suggested it perhaps come down to a definition of “consent”. Perhaps my post here would be contingent upon a definition of “repentance”?

Not trying to ask you an unfair question - just interested in people’s opinions on this…

Thanks and God bless

Patrick

None of us can speak for another so your post here about someone else is moot. We cannot know that person’s heart or their true convictions - those that will be exposed when they stand before the Lord at Judgement.
The only thing we can do is to look into our own hearts. Seek out those weaknesses and “addictions” and strive to overcome them. This is where the idea of being fixated on the goal rather than the error (sin) really comes in.

To me, an examination of dieting is a great analogy.
Consider a person who is trying to lose weight. They go on a diet and excersize program. So long as they persist in this they will reach the goal. If they stop, the goal becomes unobtainable - until they repent and get back on track. It really doesn’t matter the reason for their stopping, even a momentary weakness followed by repentance, does damage to the diet. Consistant weakness, consistant failures, even with "good intentions"and even with repeated recommitments continues to put the goal further and further away. And unless something is done by the dieter to overcome these weaknesses, they will never reach their goal.

In like manner, we must not accept our weakness. We must commit ourselves and stay committed. Many will seek to enter and not make it. (Lk 13:24)
Remember Our Goal of being with God forever is a “narrow gate”. It is a target that we must be fixed on and hit. heaven is not the default destination, attainable so long as we don’t mess up. No - the default destination is death in sin, and is something we must overcome by being fixed on and hitting our target.

Peace
James

 

[slywakka250]

Can one interpret this final part of para 1861 (as well as para 1860) to imply that there are in fact times when a person who dies in a state of mortal sin (eg dying suddenly before having gone to confession) will not in fact be destined for hell for all eternity?

According to Church teaching, anyone who dies with mortal sin on their soul(in which all 3 conditions for mortal sin are met) will go to hell for eternity.

I believe that the term mortal sin simply describes the state of separation from God. When you die you are either separated from God, or you are not. If you have mortal sin on your soul, you are separated, if you have no mortal you are not separated from God.

So, the presence of mortal sin, or the absence of it at death is the only factor which determines hell or heaven, as mortal sin is simply a term to define weather or not our relationship with God exists, or does not exist.

 

[Scoobyshme]

Thanks Scooby.

Would you then contend that an addiction to something which is objectively a mortal sin is NOT a mortal sin in the case of the addict because the addict is acting without complete consent?

Or would you contend that it remains a mortal sin even for the extreme addict because even the addict still has the possibility of turning away from his addiction despite the difficulty this might involve? So in a sense it comes down to a definition of what constitutes “consent”?

Is their such a thing as a sliding scale of consent (ie which depends on the state of mind, emotion, psychology and spirit of the person at any particular point in time)?

Patrick

Patrick,

 I would contend that someone who uses drugs or gets intoxicated has committed grave matter.  With regard to full consent, I would think someone who is totally addicted may have mitigating circumstances by which they may not be fully culpable in the sense of a mortal sin.  But only God truly knows anyone's heart.  He will judge them accordingly.  I think they may have been culpable when beginning to use the drugs or getting intoxicated (provided they had full knowledge), and my concern would be that since then they never went to Confession or repented, but just got worse and worse.  They may not be culpable for what they're doing now, but they will be held culpable for what they did then, when they had all their mental faculties, and never made it right with God.

I wouldn’t call it a “sliding scale” of consent. But there certainly can be mitigating factors. I wouldn’t hang my hat on those, though. I’d play it safe and go to Confession. We can go to Confession for venial sins, too.

 

[chain]

We do not know the extent of God’s mercy. There is always the possibility of final penitence.

I guess it could be looked at as a matter of semantics. Yes, by definition a state of mortal sin separates one from God. But we will not know on this side of eternity what state someone died in.

 

[teachccd]

I would support this view 100%

Where I would be careful is to equate committing a mortal sin as being exactly and always akin to “choosing hell”. I think some people possibly do equate these two concepts without exception… What lies deep within the heart does not always match up to actions - certain actions may happen in a moment of weakness, yet may immediately induce feelings of genuine repentance and sadness for having offended God.

I agree. I was alluding to a person who in fact separates him/herself from God and has no desire to repent. Hell actually is a choice since it is by our choices that we live our moral lives. Like I had previously said, only God knows the very depths of our hearts and the total consent that we give to those choices. We are on the same page with this but I just wanted to clarify my previous post. God bless you…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

We do not know the extent of God’s mercy. There is always the possibility of final penitence.

I guess it could be looked at as a matter of semantics. Yes, by definition a state of mortal sin separates one from God. But we will not know on this side of eternity what state someone died in.

And by some of the legalism seen on these threads, I thank God that I will be judged by Him and not my peers!

 

[hazcompat]

I posted this question in the specific context of another thread, but have received no replies as of yet…

The Catechism says (Para 1472): “Grave (mortal) sin deprives us of communion with God, and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life…”

Para 1859 confirms the basic tenets: “Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent.”

Para 1860 says that: “Unintentional ignorance…” as well as “the promptings of feelings and passions can diminish the voluntary and free character of the offence.”

Finally, para 1861 says: “If it (mortal sin) is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back.” It then says (and this is the important bit): "However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offence, we must entrust judgement of persons to the justice and mercy of God."

So my question is:
Can one interpret this final part of para 1861 (as well as para 1860) to imply that there are in fact times when a person who dies in a state of mortal sin (eg dying suddenly before having gone to confession) will not in fact be destined for hell for all eternity?

I have my own thoughts on this, but would appreciate some thoughts of others first…

God bless

Patrick

Lets imagine a man who takes a gun puts it in his mouth and blows his brains out. In the time it took for the hammer to propel the profectile down the barrel God might have shown him, and he repented of the error. we see what appears to be eternal death. in ways unkown to us we can not shorten the hand of God that he cannot save.
peace

 

[themeginthemoon]

The only straight answer is, that there is no straight answer Everyone’s responses have been wonderful and very insightful. To sum it up, in a nutshell; mortal sin separates the soul from God and this could mean you go to hell if you do not repent or are not shown God’s grace and mercy at the time of death. That is why they always say not to judge or guess whether people have gone to heaven or hell after they die, because we really don’t know. It’s one of those mysteries!

We’ll only know when we die And by God’s everlasting grace, we hopefully go to heaven so we can find out these things for sure.