Does Eastern Orthodoxy have a "Protestant Problem"?

[dzheremi]

Interesting. Are there any articles or books you can recommend on this effort to revive the faith in the communities of Muslims converted only a few centuries ago? (I seem to recall reading in the past couple years about one or more Protestant evangelists working among Ethiopian Muslims who were killed in retribution. I’m surprised such work is even attempted; as far as I know there isn’t much outreach to Muslims happening in Russia, with its millions of at least-nominal Muslims.)

I am unaware of any material specifically devoted to that topic, though many Ethiopian history books talk about the effect of Ahmed Gragn and the Sultanate of Adal on Ethiopia’s Christian identity. I am away from my books right now but I seem to recall that before the attacks of Gragn (16th century), nine out of ten Oromo (who are the largest single ethnic group in the country; ~40% of Ethiopia’s total population) were Tewahedo Orthodox; after Gragn, the ratio had flipped, with nine out of ten professing Islam. My source on this is Teffera Haile-Selassie’s “The Ethiopian Revolution” (Routledge, 1997), though my Ethiopian friends have disputed this, claiming that the Christian:Muslim ratio among the Oromo today is closer to 40:60 or 50:50, so I guess Christianity has regained some ground lost in the 16th century, though unfortunately not all of it is Orthodox. Probably the biggest name in Ethiopian Protestantism is the [Mekane Yesus Evangelical Church](Mekane Yesus Evangelical Church), which has it roots in the Lutheran missions of the late 19th century that specifically concentrated their efforts in the south and East of the country because the Orthodox influence was less strong there. They were the first ones to translate the entire Bible into Oromo (a Protestant translation, no doubt), which helped bring many Oromo to Christianity because it was not as closely tied to the Semitic/Amharic culture as the Orthodox Church is in Ethiopia, which many find alienating or unacceptable for personal, historical, and/or political reasons (Oromo is Cushitic, related to Somali, Afar, Agaw, etc, and there is an “Oromo liberation” movement active in the country, though I don’t know how popular it is).

As for outreach to Russian Muslims, I do not think there is much overt missionary work going on from the Orthodox there, but Muslims are still converting to Eastern Orthodoxy in much greater numbers than the other way around.

Of all the traditionally Eastern and Oriental Orthodox countries, Ethiopia by far has the largest Protestant population: the CIA World Factbook gives a figure of 18.6%! I wonder how many of them are converts from Islam?

Probably a larger than negligible amount, given the areas that Protestants have historically targeted (and the fact that many of these churches are really started or spread by natives who had been converted by outsiders). It has only been somewhat more recently that they’ve gone toe to toe with the Amhara, Tigray, and other highland peoples, and the vast majority of those historically Orthodox groups remain so today, thanks be to God.

I believe the Pentecostals are pretty active in India… but don’t know enough to comment further. One hopes a CAF member from India can speak to whether they’re proselytizing Catholics/Oriental Orthodox or Hindus/Muslims/Sikhs.

According to wiki (I had to look it up, as I don’t know much about Christianity in India outside of the Syriacs in Kerala), the first Protestants to evangelize in India were Lutherans in Tranquebar, Tamil Nadu in the early 16th century. I think most Christians in India are Roman Catholics, though.

 

[dcointin]

Could that be, in part, because of the scarcity of Orthodox churches in some areas, and perhaps the ethnic nature of some?

Jon

One problem is the loss of the newer generations as they begin to view themselves as American rather than of their parents cultural heritage. It tends to work this way (using Greeks as a random example):

1st Generation: Is born in Greece, a native Greek speaker, and moves to America and learns English as a second language. Helps to found or attends a Greek Orthodox church, insists on predominately Greek as the liturgical language, and emphasizes Greek culture. Views being Orthodox as synonomous with being Greek.

2nd Generation: Is born in America, a native English speaker, but taught Greek in the home and at church as well. Is raised Greek Orthodox and encouraged to find a Greek spouse. Identifies himself as both Greek and American, favors a balanced use of each as liturgical languages, and enjoys both American and Greek culture. Views being Orthodox as his family tradition, but is not judgemental toward other Christian faiths.

3rd Generation: Is born American, a native English speaker, and only knows some words and phrases in Greek. Is raised Greek Orthodox, but finding his own religious path is tolerated as long as he remains Christian, and is encouraged to just marry a good woman. Enjoys hearing a bit of Greek but favors mostly English as the liturgical language, and considers himself American with Greek heritage. Views being Orthodox as comfortable since it was how was raised, but is open minded to other faiths, and would attend services with his spouse if she weren’t Orthodox.

From here on in succeeding generations he may convert to another faith after college, chose his spouse’s faith, or lose his beliefs all together. He may also resent his grandparents, or possibly still parents, insistence on attending a Greek Orthodox church since he doesn’t view himself as Greek, and seek a church that’s more mainstream for American culture, again often with a spouse.

 

[Sixpence]

I’m curious if there is any substantial encroachment of Protestantism in Eastern Orthodoxy areas. Any info appreciated.

What does it say about Roman Catholicism, that you would have to ask what your Reformers are up to these days in the East whereas the Eastern Reformers essentially do not exist?

Russia and Romania are the two countries where Protestants have some success, largely through humanitarian efforts that help gain trust. I have met missionaries from Bulgaria as well, and while they haven’t had quite as much success they see that country as a crucial crossroads between Islam, Orthodoxy, and Catholicism (along with a substantial number of irreliguous- more than the Protestants and Catholics combined, actually-) which goes along with and at the same time is the result of the significance of its geographic location.

Bulgaria could be a really important country for Protestantism’s competitive viability if it can gain any traction there. It’s like a gateway to everything. I’d keep an eye on that one. Protestant membership actually doubled from '91 to '01. In '01, Catholics claimed about 15,000 more Bulgarians than the Protestants did. Five years later, the gap was between 5 and 6 thousand. And now, I think these are the most recent estimates. thearda.com/internationalData/countries/Country_35_2.asp

It’s coming along. Slow progress, but there is some movement up the leaderboard. And according to the source, those Protestants are mostly converts from the Roma ethnic minority and these converts tend to be split about 60-40 between Islam and non-traditional beliefs (basically non-Abrahamic religions).

Communism was more repressive of Protestantism than anything else in Bulgaria, so we’re in a process that could be seen as either a recovery or a dead cat bounce. I prefer to think that the Commie fears of the Protestants were justified in some sense, and our presence there is going to be a pretty serious thing. But there’s a lot that stands between us and the status of leading religious minority. Fortunately, however, Protestants have been able to show comparative success in gaining converts from the group that currently has that status.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_in_Bulgaria

 

[snarflemike]

What does it say about Roman Catholicism, that you would have to ask what your Reformers are up to these days in the East whereas the Eastern Reformers essentially do not exist?

I don’t know. What DOES it say about Catholicism that some guy on on the internet asks a question about Protestantism in Eastern Orthodox areas?

 

[Trebor135]

What does it say about Roman Catholicism, that you would have to ask what your Reformers are up to these days in the East whereas the Eastern Reformers essentially do not exist?

It shows that Western Christianity in the second millennium was troubled by the rise of many problematic doctrines (e.g., Baptism is purely symbolic) while Eastern Christianity in the first millennium was rocked by the sprouting of numerous egregious heresies (e.g., the material world is inferior to the spiritual realm).

 

[Sixpence]

I don’t know. What DOES it say about Catholicism that some guy on on the internet asks a question about Protestantism in Eastern Orthodox areas?

Oh, I don’t know, it might have something to do with comparative unity among ancient Christian traditions.

 

[snarflemike]

Oh, I don’t know, it might have something to do with comparative unity among ancient Christian traditions.

Or it might have something to do with the devil spending most of his effort attacking his greatest enemy. We can certainly go back and forth with that game.

To my Orthodox brethren, I don’t claim that the above is the case, and I’m not looking to start any Catholic-Orthodox quarrel. I simply put it out there to demonstrate that every theory can be countered by another theory.

 

[andrewstx]

Protestants have started going into former Eastern bloc countries, trying to “evangelize” them. Some are quite gracious, actually directing the people they evangelize to the native Orthodox Church. Others are basically out to take converts for themselves. It occasionally just so happens that Protestant ministers who go into Orthodox countries with the intention to convert the Orthodox to Protestantism wind up converting to Orthodoxy themselves. I guess the situation is multifaceted.

There is a gentelman in my Antiochian parisn who was sent by the “churchofChrist” to convert the Romainians to campbellism.

It backfired and he and his family became Orthodox, and now he is training to be a subdeacon, already he is a reader.

 

[andrewstx]

My parish is the opposite from the ethnic dominated parishes mentioned so much here.
Even though we are affiliated with Antioch there is only one Arab/Lebanese family, and one Coptic/Egyptian family.

The rest are converts from Latin Catholic, and Protestant backgrounds.

The priest was an Episcopalian, some were Baptists. some Lutherans (the deacon was LCMS Lutheran) church of Christ, I was Episcopal by way of the “church of Christ”. My matuska in a Russian parish was also cofC.

 

[Sixpence]

Or it might have something to do with the devil spending most of his effort attacking his greatest enemy. We can certainly go back and forth with that game.

To my Orthodox brethren, I don’t claim that the above is the case, and I’m not looking to start any Catholic-Orthodox quarrel. I simply put it out there to demonstrate that every theory can be countered by another theory.

Some theories are better than others, and the theory that the Western half of the Schism presents us with the one true paragon of Christian unity is not a very good one. You didn’t take care of your business, and others did. It’s hard to ignore this when you start a thread about the business you failed to take care of and the extent of its role in the lives of those who did take care of business.

And if you want to talk about who’s gotten attacked, why don’t you shift the focus from reformed Catholics who you failed to take care of and take a quick peek at things like Islam and Communism. Compare that to a life that’s lived in a mostly-Protestant country and tell me where you’re facing more persecution.

 

[snarflemike]

Some theories are better than others, and the theory that the Western half of the Schism presents us with the one true paragon of Christian unity is not a very good one. You didn’t take care of your business, and others did. It’s hard to ignore this when you start a thread about the business you failed to take care of and the extent of its role in the lives of those who did take care of business.

And if you want to talk about who’s gotten attacked, why don’t you shift the focus from reformed Catholics who you failed to take care of and take a quick peek at things like Islam and Communism. Compare that to a life that’s lived in a mostly-Protestant country and tell me where you’re facing more persecution.

You seem unreasonably provoked over a simple request for information.

 

[Trebor135]

Some theories are better than others, and the theory that the Western half of the Schism presents us with the one true paragon of Christian unity is not a very good one. You didn’t take care of your business, and others did. It’s hard to ignore this when you start a thread about the business you failed to take care of and the extent of its role in the lives of those who did take care of business.

And yet, you seem to condone or support the work of your fellow Evangelicals proselytizing in traditionally Orthodox countries… where you say previous generations “did take care of business”. Are you in favour of that successful maintenance of doctrinal unity being torn to pieces now?

 

[Sixpence]

And yet, you seem to condone or support the work of your fellow Evangelicals proselytizing in traditionally Orthodox countries… where you say previous generations “did take care of business”. Are you in favour of that successful maintenance of doctrinal unity being torn to pieces now?

The Eastern Orthodox (any kind of Orthodox, really) never went through a Reformation. And no, this is not because God loves the Latin rite the most and Satan attacks it extra hard- that’s absurd. It was a screw up. You screwed up. It happened because your people screwed up in a historically bad and completely unique kind of way that there is no going back from. It’s a series of screwups that will continue to bite you for all eternity, and everyone else is looking over at you thinking “I really hope we never screw up that badly.” Orthodox churches had no Reformations because they did not screw up- or, more precisely, they were set up in such a way that screwups could be contained to one country and brought into line by other countries working collectively. They were managed better, and while they faced many of the exact same challenges, they were able to take care of business. Unless the Protestant Reformation was part of the master plan of the Catholic Church, I can safely say that since it did happen, that was a screwup. Oopsy!

So I see it as a good thing that Orthodox churches were able to avoid screwing up the same way the CC did. I wouldn’t be all that enthusiastic about trying to convert EO Christians. But in a country like Bulgaria- as it is in most countries with a significant EO population- there are quite a few Muslims. Protestants tend to be a bit better at converting Muslims to Christianity, so I’d be more in favor of doing that. In the end, Muslim converts treat EO Christians as brothers and sisters in Christ, Protestantism gains a bit more of an Eastern identity, and everyone wins. Except the people who wish that all Christians everywhere would just be Catholic, I suppose. But you can’t make everyone happy.

Basically, in a country where the Orthodox are doing a pretty good job, you don’t have to worry too much about people choosing to leave and we will focus a lot more on non-Christian religions. There are some exceptions where a particular Orthodox church has been chronically mismanaged for quite a long time (like the Ethiopian Orthodox Church) and it comes as no surprise that so many of its laity leave it for something better. But when an Orthodox church is doing well- which is mostly how it is with Eastern Orthodoxy- I believe in staying away from the sheep-stealing mentality while focusing on accomplishing some other things that we might be a little better at doing. Converting Muslims is one example.

And yes, we are better at doing certain things. Not because of who we are- it’s not an identity thing. We just happen to be better at certain things, and it’s just because we are. That’s how it is.

 

[Trebor135]

The Eastern Orthodox (any kind of Orthodox, really) never went through a Reformation.

Thank goodness.

And no, this is not because God loves the Latin rite the most and Satan attacks it extra hard- that’s absurd.

Why God allowed the Reformation to occur is one of those things I’ll have to take him out to coffee at a heavenly Starbucks to chat about…

It was a screw up. You screwed up. It happened because your people screwed up in a historically bad and completely unique kind of way that there is no going back from. It’s a series of screwups that will continue to bite you for all eternity, and everyone else is looking over at you thinking “I really hope we never screw up that badly.” Orthodox churches had no Reformations because they did not screw up- or, more precisely, they were set up in such a way that screwups could be contained to one country and brought into line by other countries working collectively. They were managed better, and while they faced many of the exact same challenges, they were able to take care of business. Unless the Protestant Reformation was part of the master plan of the Catholic Church, I can safely say that since it did happen, that was a screwup. Oopsy!

Yours is an interesting interpretation, one I’ve seen a Catholic convert to Eastern Orthodoxy on CAF suggest. I’m not going to comment further–I don’t know enough of the historical details, and am still sorting out which Church to be affiliated with anyway.

So I see it as a good thing that Orthodox churches were able to avoid screwing up the same way the CC did. I wouldn’t be all that enthusiastic about trying to convert EO Christians. But in a country like Bulgaria- as it is in most countries with a significant EO population- there are quite a few Muslims. Protestants tend to be a bit better at converting Muslims to Christianity, so I’d be more in favor of doing that. In the end, Muslim converts treat EO Christians as brothers and sisters in Christ, Protestantism gains a bit more of an Eastern identity, and everyone wins.

I definitely see what you’re saying.

Except the people who wish that all Christians everywhere would just be Catholic, I suppose. But you can’t make everyone happy.

Well, they’re coming from the standpoint of a visible Church, adherence to which is regarded as generally necessary for salvation. Plus, Christians remaining divided really doesn’t help our credibility.

Basically, in a country where the Orthodox are doing a pretty good job, you don’t have to worry too much about people choosing to leave and we will focus a lot more on non-Christian religions. There are some exceptions where a particular Orthodox church has been chronically mismanaged for quite a long time (like the Ethiopian Orthodox Church) and it comes as no surprise that so many of its laity leave it for something better.

I see what you’re saying.

But when an Orthodox church is doing well- which is mostly how it is with Eastern Orthodoxy- I believe in staying away from the sheep-stealing mentality while focusing on accomplishing some other things that we might be a little better at doing. Converting Muslims is one example.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Our church just had a speaker who was from Russia (and previously Orthodox) who was introduced into Protestantism by a Mission funded English program. So they create these programs to teach them English, and try to convert them at the same time. I’m really not sure how I feel about this. It seems wrong to me on a certain level. I think you should be open about your intentions when trying to convert people and not cover it up by pretending you’re only trying to teach them English.

That is the “brilliance”, for lack of a better term, of Protestant communities. Here in Canada so many Catholic immigrants from the Philippines are converted because of the support system offered by these Protestant communities. When I was a new settler here one of the first Filipino friends I had tried to subtly convert me to her church by inviting me to their usual “Filipino gatherings” which start of as dinners by the Filipino community in the parish, but quickly turns into a service. And she’s not the only Filipino I met who tried to invite me into their community.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Eastern Orthodox (any kind of Orthodox, really) never went through a Reformation. And no, this is not because God loves the Latin rite the most and Satan attacks it extra hard- that’s absurd. It was a screw up. You screwed up. It happened because your people screwed up in a historically bad and completely unique kind of way that there is no going back from. It’s a series of screwups that will continue to bite you for all eternity, and everyone else is looking over at you thinking “I really hope we never screw up that badly.” Orthodox churches had no Reformations because they did not screw up- or, more precisely, they were set up in such a way that screwups could be contained to one country and brought into line by other countries working collectively. They were managed better, and while they faced many of the exact same challenges, they were able to take care of business. Unless the Protestant Reformation was part of the master plan of the Catholic Church, I can safely say that since it did happen, that was a screwup. Oopsy!

So I see it as a good thing that Orthodox churches were able to avoid screwing up the same way the CC did. I wouldn’t be all that enthusiastic about trying to convert EO Christians. But in a country like Bulgaria- as it is in most countries with a significant EO population- there are quite a few Muslims. Protestants tend to be a bit better at converting Muslims to Christianity, so I’d be more in favor of doing that. In the end, Muslim converts treat EO Christians as brothers and sisters in Christ, Protestantism gains a bit more of an Eastern identity, and everyone wins. Except the people who wish that all Christians everywhere would just be Catholic, I suppose. But you can’t make everyone happy.

Basically, in a country where the Orthodox are doing a pretty good job, you don’t have to worry too much about people choosing to leave and we will focus a lot more on non-Christian religions. There are some exceptions where a particular Orthodox church has been chronically mismanaged for quite a long time (like the Ethiopian Orthodox Church) and it comes as no surprise that so many of its laity leave it for something better. But when an Orthodox church is doing well- which is mostly how it is with Eastern Orthodoxy- I believe in staying away from the sheep-stealing mentality while focusing on accomplishing some other things that we might be a little better at doing. Converting Muslims is one example.

And yes, we are better at doing certain things. Not because of who we are- it’s not an identity thing. We just happen to be better at certain things, and it’s just because we are. That’s how it is.

To be fair to both sides, many of the heresies did arise from the East in the First Millennium. While Orthodoxy prevailed, it is not as if it was attacked.

But you’re right about the screw-up though. Reformation happened because of clergy abuses. And until today there are many clergy abuses of many kinds. From sex scandals to liturgical abuses.

 

[Trebor135]

To be fair to both sides, many of the heresies did arise from the East in the First Millennium.

Indeed.

While Orthodoxy prevailed, it is not as if it was attacked.

What do you mean here?

But you’re right about the screw-up though. Reformation happened because of clergy abuses. And until today there are many clergy abuses of many kinds. From sex scandals to liturgical abuses.

Actually, I read SixPence to be saying that the structure of the Catholic Church by its very nature made an event like the Protestant Reformation inevitable.

 

[reconman]

I’m curious if there is any substantial encroachment of Protestantism in Eastern Orthodoxy areas. Any info appreciated.

No. Orthodox have valid sacraments. Just like Catholics. To say otherwise would not only be an insult, but untrue.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Indeed.

What do you mean here?

I just think that some may have misrepresented history a bit by omitting to mention that there have been those who tried to question the Orthodox faith. Reformation was the same way, they questioned the Catholic faith. Of course Reformation was successful more than those who rose against Orthodoxy was. I’m just saying that it is not for a lack of trying.

Actually, I read SixPence to be saying that the structure of the Catholic Church by its very nature made an event like the Protestant Reformation inevitable.

Perhaps. Maybe a drawback of the centralized nature of the Church. If something is broken, you’d think it is rotten to the core, fair or not. A decentralization in Orthodoxy would mean if one bishop would become heterodox, it would be easy to single him out from other bishops. Perhaps this is why today many think they can blame the Pope for the sex scandals, because they see the Pope as a strong leader of the Catholic organization (this is the secular view) and thus he has control and command of everyone underneath him. People tend to see the Catholic Church as a corporation and the Pope as a CEO. The Orthodox Church is more like McDonald’s, where they are independently owned franchises running the same brand.

 

[ConstantineTG]

No. Orthodox have valid sacraments. Just like Catholics. To say otherwise would not only be an insult, but untrue.

I think you misunderstood the question. The OP wasn’t asking if Orthodoxy has become a Protestant faith. The question is about Protestant faiths gaining ground in lands that traditionally are Orthodox, which is most of Eastern Europe.