Does "Eternal Security" make Judgement redundant?

[Magnus1981]

I don’t know why I hadn’t thought of this before, but if a Christian (e.g. Evangelical) believes that they are guaranteed salvation and that they can never lose it, then what part does judgement play if anything at all?

We know there are four Last Things:

• Death
• Judgement
• Heaven; or
• Hell

What bothers me now that I think about it even more, is that the same Christians who preach a “Once saved, always saved” gospel, also, for some reason, teach that everyone (or an “elect”, depending on the team the preacher bats for) will come in to judgement. I guess it would be like an innocent person coming through the courts: the judge already knows without doubt that they’re innocent, the jury knows they’re innocent, the prosecution knows they’re innocent, etc., so why bother going through the court at all?

So my question, and the subject heading suggests is this:

Does “Eternal Security” make Judgement redundant?

 

[CB_Catholic]

I don’t know why I hadn’t thought of this before, but if a Christian (e.g. Evangelical) believes that they are guaranteed salvation and that they can never lose it, then what part does judgement play if anything at all?

We know there are four Last Things:

• Death
• Judgement
• Heaven; or
• Hell

What bothers me now that I think about it even more, is that the same Christians who preach a “Once saved, always saved” gospel, also, for some reason, teach that everyone (or an “elect”, depending on the team the preacher bats for) will come in to judgement. I guess it would be like an innocent person coming through the courts: the judge already knows without doubt that they’re innocent, the jury knows they’re innocent, the prosecution knows they’re innocent, etc., so why bother going through the court at all?

So my question, and the subject heading suggests is this:

Does “Eternal Security” make Judgement redundant?

Well, from what I’ve been told, for those “saved”, the judgement will determine how high your place in heaven will be. For those not “saved”, it means you’ll go to hell.

 

[milkbar]

Well, from what I’ve been told, for those “saved”, the judgement will determine how high your place in heaven will be. For those not “saved”, it means you’ll go to hell.

Having been raised a “once saved, always saved” Southern Baptist prior to finding the truth of the Church, I can tell you that’s exactly what I was taught, and I can also tell you there were certain verses I never heard a Bible study on – like Luke 12:59 and 1 Cor 3:15. I have yet to discuss this issue with anyone from my former church since my decision to convert, but I’m interested to hear their explanation now.

 

[milkbar]

OTOH, I’m having trouble finding Catholic commentary regarding John 10:29, the verse I was taught supports the “once saved, always saved” doctrine. I was taught if you can pluck yourself from the Father’s hand, you were never there to begin with.

 

[Chesster]

According to St. Aquinas the “no one shall pluck from My Father’s hand” refers to those who are already in heaven, i.e. the Church Triumphant. Those of us who are still in the Church Militant can still lose our salvation.

 

[JustaServant]

I don’t know why I hadn’t thought of this before, but if a Christian (e.g. Evangelical) believes that they are guaranteed salvation and that they can never lose it, then what part does judgement play if anything at all?

We know there are four Last Things:

• Death
• Judgement
• Heaven; or
• Hell

What bothers me now that I think about it even more, is that the same Christians who preach a “Once saved, always saved” gospel, also, for some reason, teach that everyone (or an “elect”, depending on the team the preacher bats for) will come in to judgement. I guess it would be like an innocent person coming through the courts: the judge already knows without doubt that they’re innocent, the jury knows they’re innocent, the prosecution knows they’re innocent, etc., so why bother going through the court at all?

So my question, and the subject heading suggests is this:

Does “Eternal Security” make Judgement redundant?

I will tell you when I bought into OSAS, the possibility of being judged by God was lessened to a large extent. OSAS lessens the impact of sin and the consequences of it. So yes, God’s judgement becomes less fearful.
On the other hand, when I swam the Tiber and discarded OSAS for the error that is, I felt a weight lifted from my shoulders. I think that is because I was finally accepting the authority of God over my life, instead of my own rationality.

 

[JustaServant]

OTOH, I’m having trouble finding Catholic commentary regarding John 10:29, the verse I was taught supports the “once saved, always saved” doctrine. I was taught if you can pluck yourself from the Father’s hand, you were never there to begin with.

That is because of the belief that salvation is a ‘one time event’ instead of a life-long process. OSAS is quite an inticing web. I also had a hard time discarding it when I reverted.

 

[milkbar]

According to St. Aquinas the “no one shall pluck from My Father’s hand” refers to those who are already in heaven, i.e. the Church Triumphant. Those of us who are still in the Church Militant can still lose our salvation.

Fantastic, thank you.

 

[Magnus1981]

That is because of the belief that salvation is a ‘one time event’ instead of a life-long process. OSAS is quite an inticing web. I also had a hard time discarding it when I reverted.

Yep, OSAS is a very appealing concept and I can understand why many are drawn to it.

Imagine you’re at a car dealership and two car salesmen come out. One car dealer offers you a car that is reliable, built by a trustworthy manufacturer, but needs servicing every three months, etc.; and the other car dealer offers you a car from a relatively new manufacturer, that will never break down or need maintenance. Obviously anyone in the car market is going to go for the more appealing product: the car that will never break down or need maintenance.

OSAS is a marketer’s dream.

 

[RedRedemption]

The OSAS approach to judgment is as someone said before. We believe that there is a judgment determining eternity with or apart from the Trinity (Revelations 20:11-15) in which all whose names are not “in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world(Revelations 17:8)” will be sentenced to the second death. Then those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be judged based on their works they did in Christ, in regards to rewards (1 Cor. 3:11-17). And yes there will be those spoken of in 1 Cor. 3:15 who are in Christ and will pass through the “fire” with much of his work burning up but still being saved and receiving eternal glory with Christ.

So, if you understand the judgment in that way, it is not redundant. There also will be those that think they are true believers and believe in OSAS and do good works in Christ’s name that will not be found in the Book of Life (Matt 7:21-23). For these people, the White Throne judgment will not be redundant either.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

So, if you understand the judgment in that way, it is not redundant. There also will be those that think they are true believers and believe in OSAS and do good works in Christ’s name that will not be found in the Book of Life (Matt 7:21-23). For these people, the White Throne judgment will not be redundant either.

So are you saying then that a person’s works (as in those that are following the will of the Father) count towards their salvation? This explanation always seemed to be a contradiction to OSAS.

 

[JustaServant]

Revelation 20 speaks of the judgment:

12 I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. 10 The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls. 13 The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades 11 gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.) 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.

Note how judgment according to deeds plays a role in whether one is in the book of life?

How about Rev. 22:

10 Then he said to me, “Do not seal up the prophetic words of this book, for the appointed time is near. 11 Let the wicked still act wickedly, and the filthy still be filthy. The** righteous must still do right**, and the holy still be holy.” 12 "Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.

The righteous must still do right, and holy still be holy. This indicates that it is possible that they may not do right, or be holy. “He who perseveres to the end will be saved.”
V. 12 is very telling. Christ will give recompense to each according to his deeds. This isn’t about which part of Heaven one is in, but whether one even gets there.

 

[carinapir]

So are you saying then that a person’s works (as in those that are following the will of the Father) count towards their salvation? This explanation always seemed to be a contradiction to OSAS.

I think that he was referring to the rewards such as the crowns and treasure in heaven, not salvation itself. I learned that from another thread.

 

[RedRedemption]

So are you saying then that a person’s works (as in those that are following the will of the Father) count towards their salvation? This explanation always seemed to be a contradiction to OSAS.

No, I’m not saying that the works count towards the salvation. I heard an EWTN radio show host discussing with a caller about 1 Cor. 3:12-15. The host asked the caller, a protestant, if he believed there were “varying levels of salvation”. The caller responded by saying that he believed in “varying levels of rewards, but only one salvation”. Bible reading protestants should not deny that there are the variable rewards received in eternity that are based on works done in Christ. The difference between the Catholic and Protestant view is the order of the salvation and works. Prostestants say Salvation produces Sanctification and Good Works. Catholics say Sanctification and Good Works produce Salvation. Protestant theology teaches that the good works God created us for is the evidence of the new creation we have become in Christ.

:Just to clarify something I’ve seen posted a lot about what Protestants believe: no true Christian that knows the Bible believes that professing Christ at some point in time gives them a free pass to Heaven without living a changed life. People that claim Christ and live like sinners demonstrate by their actions that their profession is not genuine and Christ’s spirit does not reside in them. Any protestant that tells you he is a Christian and lives like a sinner with no regard for righteous living, is not a Christian and has his theology all messed up. 1 John 2:3-6

 

[RedRedemption]

let me add one correction to my last post because I am sure someone will correct me. So, I will beat them to it .

In my last post I meant that Protestants believe faith leads to Salvation which produces good works and sanctification. Catholics believe that faith, sanctification, and good works leads to Salvation. Didn’t want to leave the faith part out. I know that Catholics don’t believe that Salvation is earned by good works outside of faith. Sorry for that original mis-write.

 

[carinapir]

My question is why does the order matter so much? That probably sounds stupid but when I read the debates here about the Protestant versus the Catholic Church ideas of salvation, I’m always left thinking “wow, they are both talking about exactly the same thing, just from a different angle.”

 

[RedRedemption]

Well it makes a big difference in your view of the church. Catholics believe that the church imparts the grace of Christ. For example, they believe that in the Eucharist, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross is re-presented in an unbloody manner and they receive forgiveness for sins. You have to keep doing this regularly or you mortally sin. Well only the church and the priest can obtain this forgiveness and grace for you.
Evangelicals believe the church is for believers to gather to worship and study the Bible and celebrate communion as a memorial but not a sacrifice. They don’t believe the church is necessary for forgiveness of sins but that true believers should come to church and serve and love God and each other and confess their sins to each other. It is because they believe that their faith leads to their salvation and the works and sanctification comes afterward.

So, the the order does have important implications.

 

[clmowry]

My question is why does the order matter so much? That probably sounds stupid but when I read the debates here about the Protestant versus the Catholic Church ideas of salvation, I’m always left thinking “wow, they are both talking about exactly the same thing, just from a different angle.”

I agree this is frequently the case.

"We are saved by faith alone…but, if we are really saved it will be evidenced by our good works that God has prepared for us in advance…”

“We are Once Saved Always Saved…but…if someone were to commit some really bad sin then we would know they were never really saved in the first place….”

Etc.

Chuck

 

[clmowry]

Well it makes a big difference in your view of the church. Catholics believe that the church imparts the grace of Christ. For example, they believe that in the Eucharist, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross is re-presented in an unbloody manner and they receive forgiveness for sins. You have to keep doing this regularly or you mortally sin. Well only the church and the priest can obtain this forgiveness and grace for you.

Well, really, this isn’t a very accurate representation of Catholic beliefs, but I would expect that to be as true of most non-Catholic’s describing the Catholic Church as it would be of most cradle Catholics trying to describe an Evangelical Church.

Chuck

 

[Junebug999]

I will tell you when I bought into OSAS, the possibility of being judged by God was lessened to a large extent. OSAS lessens the impact of sin and the consequences of it. So yes, God’s judgement becomes less fearful.
On the other hand, when I swam the Tiber and discarded OSAS for the error that is, I felt a weight lifted from my shoulders. I think that is because I was finally accepting the authority of God over my life, instead of my own rationality.

You said that so well. Being raised Baptist (dad was a Baptist preacher), the OSAS always led to major rationalization in my life. Now with God’s grace am trying to live a holy life. When I believed OSAS, I didn’t think a holy life was possible. I used to think of the OSAS as a bus ticket to heaven, so it didn’t matter what I did. I always rationalized that God had forgiven my future sins as well, so any of my attempts of rejecting sinfulness were half-hearted at best.

I am thankful for God’s grace that I did not die in my unrepented mortal sins. : )