Does Every Latin Catholic want unity

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The Pope has appealed to other Christians to work with the Catholic Church, (in Ut Unum Sint), to find a model for the Papacy that would be acceptable to all.

The Orthodox would not have to accept the Pope administering the whole Church as he does his Latin Rite, wearing his Bishop of Rome hat (mitre?!) This would be distinct from his role as Pope of the whole Catholic Church.

Unfortunately there still appears to be a triumphalist, ‘You come back on our terms, schismatics’ mentality out there with some. It’s not going to work.

So I think the vast majority of Latin Catholics want unity, it’s they have different ideas on what sort of unity on what terms…
 
Intrigued Latin:
Mel,
Can you elaborate on these gestures ? is there any documentation on the Greeks reaction on the return of the blessed icon of Our Lady of kazan ?
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Yes. The Vatican website features a letter of gratitude from the Patriarch to the Pope.

vatican.va/holy_father/special_features/kazan/documents/kazan_message-alexis-ii_20040831_en.htm

Tinyurl tinyurl.com/6mbev

LETTER*** OF PATRIARCH ALEKSIJ II
TO THE HOLY FATHER JOHN PAUL II
ON THE OCCASION OF THE RETURN TO RUSSIA
OF THE KAZAN ICON OF THE MOTHER OF GOD***
 
Intrigued Latin:
How many of you Latin Catholics in here really want unity with Eastern Orthodox ? I purposelyleft out Eastern Catholics as their answer is a given “yes”.

What would it take ?
Would you embrace the East with open arms even if our Holy Father’s role in the Universal Chruch changed ?

Are you happy in a status quo situation, eg." I’m a Latin Catholic and I don’t feel we need the Eastern Orthodox church to be complete.

I for one feel that we need unity, especially amoung our Orthodox sisters and brothers. I feel that it would be far easier for Rome to unite with the east far easier that our Protestant brothers and sisters.
This is something I pray for everyday…:gopray:
Hopefully in my lifetime I will see it.
Do you think the successor of JP II will have a big part to play.

Brad
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I think it is an immense scandal that the two are not one. Christ came to break down barriers between Jews and Gentiles - Christians insist on building barriers and insisting they are sacred or infallible or traditional. 😦​

I doubt it will ever happen: too much dogma in the way, and too much ill-feeling, and too much sectarian mindedness - both insist that there is “no salvation outside the Church”, but unfortunately they can’t agree on which one LOL 🙂

I do think though that there is an awful lot of blurring of genuine issues - but it’s not natural for the Pope to function without the other Patriarchs. It’s lop-sided. It’s insanity for one part of the Church to try getting on without the others - and completely unrealistic.

Constantinople, Rome, the other ancient Churches, Protestantism, need each other.

I’ve noticed a lot of contempt for anything Roman from some Eatern Catholics; as well as from some Orthodox. Maybe this is how it feels to be one of those no less despised Protestants. Maybe this something for us to use, as an opportunity to love in return, instead of giving back the negativity 🙂 ##
 
Intrigued Latin:
How many of you Latin Catholics in here really want unity with Eastern Orthodox ? I purposelyleft out Eastern Catholics as their answer is a given “yes”.

What would it take ?
Would you embrace the East with open arms even if our Holy Father’s role in the Universal Chruch changed ?

Are you happy in a status quo situation, eg." I’m a Latin Catholic and I don’t feel we need the Eastern Orthodox church to be complete.

I for one feel that we need unity, especially amoung our Orthodox sisters and brothers. I feel that it would be far easier for Rome to unite with the east far easier that our Protestant brothers and sisters.
This is something I pray for everyday…:gopray:
Hopefully in my lifetime I will see it.
Do you think the successor of JP II will have a big part to play.

Brad
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I would love it if the churches would unite and become one. The Orthodox church only confusses me because they are another church that holds to orthodox christianity. It causes confussion so I would love unity.

If the pope would down size his own role a little in order to help toward union, I would accept it. If the pope is infallable there is no reason not to accept it.

I don’t know what the next pope will be like but he will be very important in the path of the church either he could lead us closer to reunion or he can destroy everything JPII has done to lead to reunion.

There will never be reunion if they require that the east must bow to the pope as infallable leader of the whole church. There will have to be some sacrifice for it to happen. Ratzinger says that we can not expect more out of the East than what was taught at the split.

I agree with Melchior, the Orthodox tend to look down on the Catholic church as a whole. Not only will it take a pope that is enthusiastic about the issue of ecumenism, it will also take enthusiastic bishops of Constantionople and Russia and others.

I personally think it will be a very tough thing to do. I can’t see the Orthodox accepting the differences in the Catholic church as legitimate.
 

How many of you Latin Catholics in here really want unity with Eastern Orthodox ? I purposelyleft out Eastern Catholics as their answer is a given “yes”.​

Um… may I offer a suggestion? It sounds as if you need to work on realizing that our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters are in full communion with us in the West and just like Latins, they can’t be lumped into a stereotypical “yes, I want unity” mold. Why purposefully “leave them out?” Aren’t they Catholic, too? Aren’t they completely and totally in line with the Holy Father just as we profess to be? Has it occured to you that they get enough ridicule and maltreatment as it is (from the Orthodox and Latins alike!)?! Let’s just go about making more stereotypes, why don’t we? throws up his hands God love you.
 
The Orthodox Church is a schismatic one. During the first millenium they were manny times in heresy and schism. They isolated themselves, so they have only one rite: byzantine rite. The Catholic Church have all rites, and keep the same faith.

Orthodox Church abandoned the primacy of Rome and we know that the Fathers of the Church affirmed in a way or other this primacy: St. Basil asked Pope to depose two bishops even he was in East, St. John Christotom asked Pope to revoke a decision of a Council (I think Quercus) who deposed St. John.
And the Fathers afiirm the primacy of Rome.
Filioque is based on the Tradition, see Fathers Know Best and other catholic apologies.

Those who abandoned the Catholic Church I can say what St. Cyprian of Carthage sayed: those who are not in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, Peter’s succesor, they are not in the Catholic Church, in the Church of Crhist. They are heretics or schismatics.
 
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Melchior:
The Orthodox tend to have a long memory and are frankly not very forgiving towards past Catholic “sins” against them.
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Which makes you wonder what the Orthodox understand about the Gospels. Jesus would tell the Orthodox to their faces, “Hey, get over it for crying out loud. When did I ever tell you that you could hold grudges and be unforgiving?”

But you are right, the Orthodox can whip themselves into a self righteous rage about an injustice committed a thousand years ago. :rolleyes:
 
I would love to see the East and West reunite. I see when that happens Catholicism will become much stronger and all the Protestants will have a tough time attacking such a big communion of faith. However I know it will not happen over night, there will have to be a comprimise, but Papal infallibility and superiority is one thing that must never change. I see that if the Orthodox and Catholics reunite it will be one church at a time. I am guessing that the Russian Orthodox will be the last church to reunite.
 
I would be delighted if a reconciliation could be achieved; I pray every day for unity between the Catholic Church and the various Orthodox communions (I am not especially more concerned that we should reconcile with the Greeks than with the Copts, etc). That said, I absolutely would not accept a reunion which proceeded from a compromise of the Faith. The Church is, by definition, indefectible; if we were to agree that the Pope is not the head of the whole Church militant, or the infallible vicar of Christ on Earth, then we would be admitting that the Catholic Church had made a serious mistake in a matter of faith.

This would be proof beyond cavil that the Catholic Church is not the One Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church. As such, there would be no sense, in such circumstances, in remaining Catholic. That would be all I would need to prove that I had been mistaken when I joined the Catholic Church, and I would leave to start looking elsewhere for the real Church. For this reason, all talk of not requiring any more of the eastern Churches than was explicitly taught before the various schisms is nonsense. A council cannot be ecumenical in Rome but not ecumenical in Kiev. If a council is ecumenical then it is binding on everyone. Reunion presumes that we all agree on the status of the 21 councils which we Catholics regard as ecumenical, and if such an agreement is reached by declaring that some of those 21 are not ecumenical, then the Catholic Church is a fraud and there is no sense in pretending otherwise.

Thinking of compromises which could be achieved, however, within the framework of the Faith which has been handed on to us from the Apostles, I wonder if the various Papal claims could be made more acceptable to the Orthodox if we agreed to shift the seat of the Apostolic See to some other jurisdiction instead of Rome? For instance, what if we all agreed to move the See of Peter to Moscow, and to look to the Moscow Patriarch as the infallible head of the whole Church militant? One way or another, however, I know that the successor of Peter must be the head of the Church, and I would oppose a reconciliation which soft-peddles this truth with the last breath from my lips.
 
It’s pretty beyond my understanding why Orthodox clergy are so immovable, just so hard, to move towards unity. They have this attitude of “mind your own church, I will mind my own” when it comes to unity.

Christ has given us only one Church and He wishes upon His return to see only one–not two, nor three nor a thousand, etc. He will only be going to wed one Bride–not two, nor three, nor a thousand, etc.

Now, how can this Church be united if, according to Orthodox, every Patriarch of the Orthodox and all heads of certain dioceses is his own Pope? They just need to look at their own house to see if they are really united. It’s true they have a patriarch who is considered “first among equals” but, is he really first? I see that he is only a decoration. Orthodox Churches (Russian, Greek, etc.) are not really united since they mind their own and they all have a independent stature with the rest of Orthodox Churches. And this is what they are proposing to the Catholic Church who already established unity in a very diversed Catholic Church, yet holds this unity with a single head? If they are really serious, they should put Christ head above first and foremost, and their heads far below Christ’s. If they maintain their heads above, they can never see Christ’s desire to have this unity.

Pio
 
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theodorro:
The Orthodox Church is a schismatic one. During the first millenium they were manny times in heresy and schism. They isolated themselves, so they have only one rite: byzantine rite. The Catholic Church have all rites, and keep the same faith.
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The Orthodox churches have a western rite.

This thread is has gone so far it is hard to believe. It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.
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Matt16_18:
Which makes you wonder what the Orthodox understand about the Gospels. Jesus would tell the Orthodox to their faces, “Hey, get over it for crying out loud. When did I ever tell you that you could hold grudges and be unforgiving?”

But you are right, the Orthodox can whip themselves into a self righteous rage about an injustice committed a thousand years ago.
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Catholics are not innocent any all of this. They sacked Constantinople, they stole Churches from the Orthodox. We are all at fault in this.

They have “whiped” themselves into a self righteous rage the same as you have.

No every Latin Catholic does not want unity. If this thread it any evidence, most want supremecy.
 
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GrzeszDeL:
I would be delighted if a reconciliation could be achieved; I pray every day for unity between the Catholic Church and the various Orthodox communions (I am not especially more concerned that we should reconcile with the Greeks than with the Copts, etc). That said, I absolutely would not accept a reunion which proceeded from a compromise of the Faith.
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Amen to that. 👍

The wrong question is being asked: “Does Every Latin Catholic want unity?” The Catholic Church already possesses that unity. We don’t have to wait for it, it is here now. Jesus prayed for his church to be one, and that prayer has been answered. That is why Catholics confess that we believe in the ONE, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Jesus told us to “"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.” Peter repeats that warning when he says, “there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies.” That many would fall away was predicted by Jesus. That men should be led astray by false prophets is a tragedy, but that in no way compromises the unity that the Catholic Church possesses.

We should pray that the Orthodox will repent of their schism and humbly return to the fold. But God will never allow his Church to have a false “unity” through a compromised faith.

If the Orthodox won’t repent of their schism, then we should ignore the Orthodox hierarchy altogether, and get on with the task of evangelizing the world. The Blessed Mother predicted at Fatima that the world would be granted a time of peace, and that Russia would be converted. IMO, it is time to get on with the task of evangelizing Russia, and to quit wasting time waiting for the proud and the arrogant to repent of the sin of schism. Bring the truth to the Russians, and the Russians will respond to the truth.
 
Catholics are not innocent any all of this. They sacked Constantinople, they stole Churches from the Orthodox. We are all at fault in this.
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What do you mean when you say “we”? Are you saying that the Pope ordered the sacking or it was just done by few Catholics?

You are just like saying that the whole of the Catholic Church has done these things which is VERY UNFAIR to the others who didn’t do it. DOn’t make us be involved in a crime we didn’t commit.

What about the Orthodox Church who seized many Greek Catholic Churches in Ukraine and until now they haven’t returned it to the Greek Catholic Church?

Pio
 
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ByzCath:
Catholics are not innocent any all of this. They sacked Constantinople, they stole Churches from the Orthodox.
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No Catholic that is alive today had anything to do with the sack of Constantinople. The Orthodox claim to be appalled at the “Catholic” belief that men and women bear personal guilt for the sin of Adam. Then the Orthodox do an about face, and want the Catholics that are alive today to bear personal guilt for acts committed by someone else centuries ago. But hey, no one ever claimed that logical thinking and consistency of belief was a strength of Orthodoxy.

If will help the Orthodox learn to forgive, I will personally apologize for the sack of Constantinople.I am sorry that the sack of Constantinople happened. Now get over it, not for my sake, but for Christ’s sake, and for the sake of your own salvation.If you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses
Matt. 6:15
 
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hlgomez:
What do you mean when you say “we”? Are you saying that the Pope ordered the sacking or it was just done by few Catholics?

You are just like saying that the whole of the Catholic Church has done these things which is VERY UNFAIR to the others who didn’t do it. DOn’t make us be involved in a crime we didn’t commit.
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Hmmm, did you not say…
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hlgomez:
It’s pretty beyond my understanding why Orthodox clergy are so immovable, just so hard, to move towards unity. They have this attitude of “mind your own church, I will mind my own” when it comes to unity.

Christ has given us only one Church and He wishes upon His return to see only one–not two, nor three nor a thousand, etc. He will only be going to wed one Bride–not two, nor three, nor a thousand, etc.
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So its not ok to say that Catholics are guilty but it is ok to lump all the Orthodox together as you do here?

Double standard?
 
Matthew 7

Judging Others

1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4 "Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5 "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
6 "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
 
So its not ok to say that Catholics are guilty but it is ok to lump all the Orthodox together as you do here?

Double standard?
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The one you are referring to is a totally different question. I’m not showing any double standard here. As far as I am concerned, that comment is based on the view of the Orthodox clergy right from the top–the leader itself. So if it’s the leader’s saying that, the followers have to follow their leader, otherwise they can be excommunicated or be referred to as “heretic”, just like what they call all the Catholics because we don’t agree with what they say.

Now, my question for you is this: What do you mean by “we” in your allegations saying the “we” catholics are guilty of that sack in Constantinople? Are you saying the WHOLE of the Catholic Church is in “error” or “sin” for doing such horrible crimes? I can’t imagine the Body of Christ will go against its Head which is Christ himself. Or are you trying to say, which is more likely correct, that her members did it, but not the whole of the Catholic Church?

If you want to assume the guilt of those people, I can’t do nothing about that.

Pio
 
Watching this thread alone show that there is a long way to go! 🙂

I will say this with all due respect to the Orthodox. There can never really be any true Catholic reunion with “the Orthodox Church”, simply because there is no one Orthodox Church. The fundamental unifying factor of the Church is Holy Communion. Yet there are several Orthodox Churches that are not in communion with each other, despite identical belief and practice. There can be Catholic reunion with individual Orthodox Churches but there will certainly be other ones that reject reunion and thus will say that those who have joined communion with “Rome” have simply left Orthdoxy. Of course this has already happened with most of the Eastern Catholic churches.

But if we are going to ask if there is going to be a reunion between Catholics and Orthodox we need first ask which Orthodox.

In short you can’t have unity with a church that is not “one”.

Mel
 
Intrigued Latin:
How many of you Latin Catholics in here really want unity with Eastern Orthodox ?
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Absolutely, following Christs admonition that “they all may be one”.
What would it take ?
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The Orthodox Catholics understanding is virtually the same as the Eastern Orthodox. I don’t think there is anything standing in the way of full Communion other than the desire on the part of both parties to work out the details.
 
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