Does everyone want eternal life?

[GEddie]

Time is non existent in the life after. Time is made as a consequence of fear of death.

Man is selfish to fear death, and to plan for death.

Time will exist as long as one fears.

Time is very physical, and is inherent to the material of our human bodies.

It is not selfish, but natural and human to fear death.

ICXC NIKA

 

[VincentChristop]

Time is very physical, and is inherent to the material of our human bodies.

It is not selfish, but natural and human to fear death.

ICXC NIKA

It is very much a selfish quality to live your life accordingly to the fear of death.

It is not natural for humans to know, and fear death. What is natural is for humans to learn from their surroundings what to fear.

 

[steve_b]

Exactly, and that objection alone points to the weakness of Pascal’s wager.

Pascal lived in a time of great scepticism, so Pascal’s Wager is an argument for sceptics. Are these times we live in any different… i.e. re: are there fewer sceptics around today?

consider the following argument
peterkreeft.com/topics/pascals-wager.htm

 

[Robert_Sock]

I do not know if this has been mentioned yet, but I believe that all souls long to be united with their source, God.

LOVE!

 

[tonyrey]

No.
[The Buddha said:] “What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time — crying and weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — or the water in the four great oceans?”

“As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the tears we have shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time — crying and weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans.”

"Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.

“This is the greater: the tears you have shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time — crying and weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans.”

– Assu sutta, Samyutta Nikaya 15.3Both Christians and Buddhists are to love their neighbours as themselves. Since the eternal Christian heaven sits alongside the eternal Christian hell then everyone in heaven is separated from people they love and are aware that people they love are suffering eternally.

You are living in a five star hotel with every possible luxury available as you want it. In the next room your family is screaming in agony as they are being tortured. Are you happy? Do you want this situation to continue eternally? How many tears will you shed for the suffering of those you love?

rossum

Hell is not a imaginary torture chamber but the self-imposed isolation of those who love themselves at the expense of others. No tears will be shed for them because their callous selfishness makes even those who used to love them recoil in horror. Even in this world there is plenty of evidence of diabolical cruelty towards kith and kin in the insane pursuit of wealth, power and pleasure. To imagine everyone shares the same fate regardless of how they have lived is a mockery of belief in justice…

 

[Robert_Sock]

Hell is not a imaginary torture chamber but the self-imposed isolation of those who love themselves at the expense of others. No tears will be shed for them because their callous selfishness makes even those who used to love them recoil in horror. Even in this world there is plenty of evidence of diabolical cruelty towards kith and kin in the insane pursuit of wealth, power and pleasure. To imagine everyone shares the same fate regardless of how they have lived is a mockery of belief in justice…

I like what you said, but you may interested in knowing that in Jewish Mysticism, everyone will eventually be saved. Something to place in your memory for potentially future reference.

LOVE!

 

[tonyrey]

I like what you said, but you may interested in knowing that in Jewish Mysticism, everyone will eventually be saved. Something to place in your memory for potentially future reference.

LOVE!

It is a comforting thought, Robert, but it underestimates the horrific reality of evil. If we are genuinely free to shape our own destiny there is no guarantee that everyone will eventually be saved.

 

[rossum]

No tears will be shed for them because their callous selfishness makes even those who used to love them recoil in horror.

Where did Jesus say that Christian love only applies to nice people? That is not how I understand Him. He said to love everyone. Period. No exceptions. Please indicate in scripture where Jesus says you only have to love some people, not all people.

To imagine everyone shares the same fate regardless of how they have lived is a mockery of belief in justice…

Exactly, which is why I find the Christian system unsatisfactory.

• Commit adultery - an eternity in hell.
• Murder one person - an eternity in hell.
• Murder 100 people - an eternity in hell.

To me, that does not seem like a just system. The punishment does not vary with the crime. The Buddhist system is much more finely graded, and can allow for many more different outcomes.

rossum

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Where did Jesus say that Christian love only applies to nice people? That is not how I understand Him. He said to love everyone. Period. No exceptions. Please indicate in scripture where Jesus says you only have to love some people, not all people.

You do have to love all people, but you can recoil at the horrors committed by others.

• Commit adultery - an eternity in hell.
• Murder one person - an eternity in hell.
• Murder 100 people - an eternity in hell.

To me, that does not seem like a just system. The punishment does not vary with the crime. The Buddhist system is much more finely graded, and can allow for many more different outcomes.

**The most finely graded outcome of all is repentence and forgiveness. I’m not aware that your Buddhist gods can forgive. As you’ve said so often, your Buddhist gods can safely be ignored. The Christian God is not safely ignored; but he safely forgives if you ask him to forgive. That’s the kind of compassion and justice that works for me. **

 

[rossum]

It would be helpful if you enclosed your comments in [noparse]…

[/noparse] markers rather than set them in a different colour. That allows the software to deal with them more intelligently.

You do have to love all people, but you can recoil at the horrors committed by others.

It was the people I was talking about, not their actions. I was responding to tonyrey’s post:
tonyrey;11928498:

No tears will be shed for them because their callous selfishness makes even those who used to love them recoil in horror.

I’m not aware that your Buddhist gods can forgive.

They cannot. In Buddhism there is neither sin nor forgiveness of sin. There are actions and the consequences of those actions. All good consequences are temporary and can last a short time or a long time. All bad consequences are temporary and can last a short time or a long time. There are neither eternal heavens nor eternal hells in Buddhism. The heavens and hells are all temporary, similar to the Catholic Purgatory.

rossum

 

[tonyrey]

Where did Jesus say that Christian love only applies to nice people? That is not how I understand Him. He said to love everyone. Period. No exceptions. Please indicate in scripture where Jesus says you only have to love some people, not all people.

Strawman!

Exactly, which is why I find the Christian system unsatisfactory.

• Commit adultery - an eternity in hell.
• Murder one person - an eternity in hell.
• Murder 100 people - an eternity in hell.

To me, that does not seem like a just system. The punishment does not vary with the crime. The Buddhist system is much more finely graded, and can allow for many more different outcomes.

By total extinction!

 

[tonyrey]

They cannot. In Buddhism there is neither sin nor forgiveness of sin. There are actions and the consequences of those actions. All good consequences are temporary and can last a short time or a long time. All bad consequences are temporary and can last a short time or a long time. There are neither eternal heavens nor eternal hells in Buddhism. The heavens and hells are all temporary, similar to the Catholic Purgatory.

In other words no one is responsible for anything and everyone eventually disappears, neatly disposing of all problems!

 

[rossum]

In other words no one is responsible for anything and everyone eventually disappears, neatly disposing of all problems!

We are all responsible for the consequences of our own actions. You cannot avoid those consequences, no matter how much you pray to any God or gods.

rossum

 

[tonyrey]

We are all responsible for the consequences of our own actions. You cannot avoid those consequences, no matter how much you pray to any God or gods.

Ultimately we get what we deserve but do we deserve to disappear?

 

[rossum]

Ultimately we get what we deserve but do we deserve to disappear?

You have already disappeared, or are you now exactly the same as the day you were born, with the same level of knowledge of the English language and the same skills with a computer?

rossum

 

[tonyrey]

You have already disappeared, or are you now exactly the same as the day you were born, with the same level of knowledge of the English language and the same skills with a computer?

All of us have changed not disappeared. There is continuity in a person’s life; otherwise we wouldn’t be responsible for what we did five minutes ago, we wouldn’t have any legal identity and the Buddhist belief in reincarnation wouldn’t make sense…

 

[rossum]

All of us have changed not disappeared.

If we have changed, then we are not the same as we were. Hence our old self has disappeared and been replaced by our new self. Just as well, otherwise our unsaved unbaptised soul at birth could not have been replaced by a saved baptised soul. Since a single soul cannot be both unbaptised and baptised, then we are talking about two different souls. I assume you are not saying that baptism has zero effect.

There is continuity in a person’s life; otherwise we wouldn’t be responsible for what we did five minutes ago, we wouldn’t have any legal identity and the Buddhist belief in reincarnation wouldn’t make sense…

The continuity is causation. What we rare now is caused by what we were a moment ago. We are not the same because e have different memories and we are older. Some of our cells have died while other cells have grown. We are continually changing; we are not static.

rossum

 

[tonyrey]

I

All of us have changed not disappeared.

Non sequitur. The very fact that we use “we” implies that there is an enduring entity. A physical object like a house is still fundamentally the same house after it has been painted. A person is even more clearly the same person throughout his or her life. Otherwise the entire legal system would be based on a misconception of identity. Innocence and guilt would become illusions. How could we be responsible for what we did five minutes ago, let alone five years? Yet you have stated:

We are all responsible for the consequences of our own actions.

!

Just as well, otherwise our unsaved unbaptised soul at birth could not have been replaced by a saved baptised soul. Since a single soul cannot be both unbaptised and baptised, then we are talking about two different souls. I assume you are not saying that baptism has zero effect.

The soul is not replaced but sanctified:

1121 The three sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders confer, in addition to grace, a sacramental character or “seal” by which the Christian shares in Christ’s priesthood and is made ** a member of the Church according to different states and functions.

There is continuity in a person’s life; otherwise we wouldn’t be responsible for what we did five minutes ago, we wouldn’t have any legal identity and the Buddhist belief in reincarnation wouldn’t make sense…

The continuity is causation. What weare now is caused by what we were a moment ago. We are not the same because e have different memories and we are older. Some of our cells have died while other cells have grown. We are continually changing; we are not static. If we have changed, then we are not the same as we were. Hence our old self has disappeared and been replaced by our new self. Just as well, otherwise our unsaved unbaptised soul at birth could not have been replaced by a saved baptised soul. Since a single soul cannot be both unbaptised and baptised, then we are talking about two different souls. I assume you are not saying that baptism has zero effect.

It would have zero effect if the baptised person disappeared and were replaced by a **totally **different person!

The continuity is causation. What we are now is caused by what we were a moment ago. We are not the same because we have different memories and we are older. Some of our cells have died while other cells have grown. We are continually changing; we are not static.

Causation by itself doesn’t explain identity, continuity or responsibility. If nothing were ever the same the principles of logic would be invalid. An analytic, atomistic interpretation of reality fails to account for synthesis and integration. Modern medicine is based on a holistic view of persons instead of being restricted to separate symptoms.

Moreover the soul doesn’t consist of parts; it is an invisible and indivisible entity unaffected by spatial and temporal factors. We are dynamic because we have a spiritual source of energy which is independent of physical causes.

 

[Bradski]

Hell is not a imaginary torture chamber but the self-imposed isolation of those who love themselves at the expense of others.

So no time off for good behaviour then. No parole board. The key is thrown away. lucky we don’t use that as an example of how justice should work in the here and now.

But Rossum’s point about none of us being the same person is an interesting one. Yes, if you paint a house a different colour, then it’s still the same house (just finished painting mine actually). But what if you gradually replace all the bricks and timber and windows and doors. It’s still the same home, but it’s not the same house.

Similarly, I am still the same ‘Brad’ as I was when I was younger. But I’m almost certain I am not the same man as I was. Certainly physically, as everything has been replaced over time. But if I was to meet my younger self from thirty years ago, then I’m not sure I’d recognise him.

 

[rossum]

The soul is not replaced but sanctified

Can one soul be both sanctified and non-sanctified? Can one thing have two opposed properties?

The two statements: “my soul is sanctified” and “my soul is not sanctified” are a contradiction. Hence we either have two different souls or we have a logical contradiction.

rossum