Does faith alone a.k.a. "sola fide" lead to atheism?

[Estevao]

Protestantism might get you to heaven the same way that a run-down ford pinto might get you to where you want to go in one piece, but I’d rather get there in a BMW myself. The BMW would also be able to drive faster if there weren’t a bunch of ford pintos clogging up the road. And finally, I think there would be less people aimlessly wandering on the road, some even going the wrong way, if people didn’t have experiences with ford pintos breaking down and leaving them without a ride in the BMW.

Also I don’t accept appeals to the majority of academics as a legitimate argument when it comes to the use of loaded terms. By calling protestant rebels “reformers” it implies that they were on the same level as real reformers such as St Catherine of Siena or St Francis of Assisi. By calling the protestant revolt of the 16th century a “reformation” it implies there was something to be reformed and that the reformation actually did it.

Honestly I’m not sure if my one idea here would pan out, but I think there must be some thought put into whether or not the protestant revolt begot atheism. There is a rather direct line between the chief heresiarch of Protestantism, Luther, and the high-point of materialist atheism during the 20th century, Nazi Germany and Hitler. I believe that categories created by Luther and fulfilled in Hitler were rejection and hatred of authority, individualism and nationalism, and perhaps anti-semitism. I suppose sola fide would go into the individualism category. Of course atheism still exists rather widely and with these same categories after its hey-day in the 20th century, but I think that it is coming down due to low birth rates and the death of atheistic materialism.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Protestantism might get you to heaven the same way that a run-down ford pinto might get you to where you want to go in one piece, but I’d rather get there in a BMW myself. The BMW would also be able to drive faster if there weren’t a bunch of ford pintos clogging up the road. And finally, I think there would be less people aimlessly wandering on the road, some even going the wrong way, if people didn’t have experiences with ford pintos breaking down and leaving them without a ride in the BMW.

Also I don’t accept appeals to the majority of academics as a legitimate argument when it comes to the use of loaded terms. By calling protestant rebels “reformers” it implies that they were on the same level as real reformers such as St Catherine of Siena or St Francis of Assisi. By calling the protestant revolt of the 16th century a “reformation” it implies there was something to be reformed and that the reformation actually did it.

Honestly I’m not sure if my one idea here would pan out, but I think there must be some thought put into whether or not the protestant revolt begot atheism. There is a rather direct line between the chief heresiarch of Protestantism, Luther, and the high-point of materialist atheism during the 20th century, Nazi Germany and Hitler. I believe that categories created by Luther and fulfilled in Hitler were rejection and hatred of authority, individualism and nationalism, and perhaps anti-semitism. I suppose sola fide would go into the individualism category. Of course atheism still exists rather widely and with these same categories after its hey-day in the 20th century, but I think that it is coming down due to low birth rates and the death of atheistic materialism.

Then one has to wonder what your purpose of being here is, other than to belittle and insult fellow baptized members of the body of Christ. It clearly isn’t to have rational discourse with them, apparently.

But hey, I am glad our Savior bled and died for you to beat your chest triumphally that the congregation you attend is superior to all others.

 

[Estevao]

Then one has to wonder what your purpose of being here is, other than to belittle and insult fellow baptized members of the body of Christ. It clearly isn’t to have rational discourse with them, apparently.

But hey, I am glad our Savior bled and died for you to beat your chest triumphally that the congregation you attend is superior to all others.

Uh I’m sorry if you think I’m belittling protestants any more than John Macarthur does when he refers to the Catholic Church as the kingdom of satan or the pope as an anti-christ. John Macarthur is widely respected in the protestant world, so as long as he says what he does, I won’t feel one ounce of guilt in referring to the hundreds of protestant communities as run-down ford pintos at risk of exploding at any second and scarring people for life.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Uh I’m sorry if you think I’m belittling protestants any more than John Macarthur does when he refers to the Catholic Church as the kingdom of satan or the pope as an anti-christ.

John McArthur doesn’t post here and he is not subject to forum rules.

 

[manualman]

Uh I’m sorry if you think I’m belittling protestants any more than John Macarthur does …John Macarthur is widely respected in the protestant world, so as long as he says what he does, I won’t feel one ounce of guilt in referring to the hundreds of protestant communities as run-down ford pintos at risk of exploding at any second and scarring people for life.

Yeah, but he’s not respected at all in the catholic world, so it’s kind of strange for a catholic to decide that his is an acceptable model of Christian behavior in dialogue, eh? So unless you really are gunning for sharing a purgatory cell with McArthur, how about you model personal interactions on Jesus instead?

On topic, I think the OP thesis is close, but wrong. Sola Fide is not the major problematic theme of Protestantism. In fact, I’d go so far as to say that it’s very nearly what a scrupulous person needs to hear in order to get over that spiritual problem. Interpreted generously, it can be said to be true.

Sola Scriptura is far more easily identifiable as one of the major causes of Christianity losing credibility in the history of western civilization. I suspect that Luther came up with it out of desperation to preserve the idea of Sola Scriptura that had so soothed his scrupulous conscience and was under significant criticism by the Magisterium. If the authority of the church was going to oppose SF, the that authority obviously couldn’t be real and a new source found. SS opened Pandora’s box to every Tom, Dick and Harry with basic literacy establishing his own form of Christianity subject only to the discipline of the Holy Spirit (highly convenient since He rarely uses the bully pulpit!). Once we lost the visible unity Christ commanded us to maintain, it was no longer so immediately clear how beneficial the faith had been on society as a whole. It became possible to imagine the silly philosophy of individualism in which each of us is an independent agent only minimally affected by what goes on around us. Only then did philosophical atheism (as opposed to de facto atheism) become common in society.

I forget the poster’s name, but one guy above defined atheism so broadly, that from his definition, the United States is an atheist nation and public schools teach atheism. I don’t agree. In effect, it’s sometimes true that government behaves in a de facto atheist manners and schools teach in a de facto atheist sense. But de facto atheism isn’t really what the OP was talking about. I think he meant overtly philosophical atheism: the actual belief that there is no god rather than just a life lived as if there weren’t, but not really pondered about.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Yeah, but he’s not respected at all in the catholic world, so it’s kind of strange for a catholic to decide that his is an acceptable model of Christian behavior in dialogue, eh? So unless you really are gunning for sharing a purgatory cell with McArthur, how about you model personal interactions on Jesus instead?

Amen, indeed.

On topic, I think the OP thesis is close, but wrong. Sola Fide is not the major problematic theme of Protestantism. In fact, I’d go so far as to say that it’s very nearly what a scrupulous person needs to hear in order to get over that spiritual problem. Interpreted generously, it can be said to be true.

Amen and amen.

Sola Scriptura is far more easily identifiable as one of the major causes of Christianity losing credibility in the history of western civilization.

I would say the difficulty for “Protestantism” (and here, by Protestantism, I am speaking broadly) is not sola scriptura, which is true depending on how it is defined.

The real issue is ecclesiology.

 

[manualman]

I would say the difficulty for “Protestantism” (and here, by Protestantism, I am speaking broadly) is not sola scriptura, which is true depending on how it is defined.

The real issue is ecclesiology.

If you can figure out how to reconcile “Scripture Alone” with a church that teaches holding the keys of the kingdom and a recognition that the Bible is a narrative story, not a comprehensive catechism, I’m open to it. But it sounds like a tall order!

 

[Per_Crucem]

If you can figure out how to reconcile “Scripture Alone” with a church that teaches holding the keys of the kingdom and a recognition that the Bible is a narrative story, not a comprehensive catechism, I’m open to it. But it sounds like a tall order!

Sure; one could define it similar to the way many Anglicans view Scripture (commonly called Prima Scriptura). This would be compatible with both Catholicism and some forms of Protestantism. The point I was making, though, isn’t to reconcile sola scriptura with Catholicism, but rather, where the fundamental divide between Reformation churches and Catholicism actually is. Authority is an issue, yes, but I would contend ecclesiology is the root division.

 

[JonNC]

=Estevao;12291144]Protestantism might get you to heaven the same way that a run-down ford pinto might get you to where you want to go in one piece, but I’d rather get there in a BMW myself. The BMW would also be able to drive faster if there weren’t a bunch of ford pintos clogging up the road. And finally, I think there would be less people aimlessly wandering on the road, some even going the wrong way, if people didn’t have experiences with ford pintos breaking down and leaving them without a ride in the BMW.

Protestantism (whatever that is) doesn’t get one to Heaven. Grace alone does that.
I don’t know about a Pinto, but Christ made His way into Jerusalem on a donkey, “and a colt the foal of her that is used to the yoke.”

Honestly I’m not sure if my one idea here would pan out, but I think there must be some thought put into whether or not the protestant revolt begot atheism. There is a rather direct line between the chief heresiarch of Protestantism, Luther, and the high-point of materialist atheism during the 20th century, Nazi Germany and Hitler. I believe that categories created by Luther and fulfilled in Hitler were rejection and hatred of authority, individualism and nationalism, and perhaps anti-semitism.

Plain nonsense, as is the claim that Pope Pius XII was “Hitler’s pope”, or the blaming of a 14 year old Ratzinger for being in Hitler Youth.

Jon

 

[SteveVH]

Plain nonsense, as is the claim that Pope Pius XII was “Hitler’s pope”, or the blaming of a 14 year old Ratzinger for being in Hitler Youth.

Jon

Absolutely.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Yeah, but he’s not respected at all in the catholic world, so it’s kind of strange for a catholic to decide that his is an acceptable model of Christian behavior in dialogue, eh? So unless you really are gunning for sharing a purgatory cell with McArthur, how about you model personal interactions on Jesus instead?

I love this. I really, really do. This has to be one of the most brilliant things I’ve ever seen posted on this site.

And as a side note, he isn’t very well respected in mainline Protestant circles either. He only appeals to the most literal and conservative of conservative biblical literalists. He also on record as calling other Protestant churches ‘Satan’s Church’. I grew up in a very Protestant community, and most people despised him.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Protestantism might get you to heaven the same way that a run-down ford pinto might get you to where you want to go in one piece, but I’d rather get there in a BMW myself. The BMW would also be able to drive faster if there weren’t a bunch of ford pintos clogging up the road. And finally, I think there would be less people aimlessly wandering on the road, some even going the wrong way, if people didn’t have experiences with ford pintos breaking down and leaving them without a ride in the BMW.

And if I’m one of those people aimlessly wandering the road, and someone stops and offers me a ride, I’ll be far more likely to get into a ford with a polite, humble driver, than I will be to get into a BMW that’s being driven by someone with such a lofty opinion of himself and his car.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

I was wondering if you guys had ever considered how the protestant revolt led to atheism in how the protestant rebels said that we don’t really have to do anything, or that the works we do are unimportant, just believe in Jesus and be set. Faith alone as they called it.

It seems it’s just one small step from believing in Jesus and leaving it at that to not believing in Jesus and leaving it at that. It’s like flipping a light switch rather than undoing years worth of works in charity, volunteering, etc.

I think imputed righteousness might also lead to atheism as well. If you think that God doesn’t really change your being, just imputes righteousness to you but still knows in the back of His mind that you’re nothing but a filthy sinner, don’t you think it’s not a big step to thinking that “I’ll just remain a filthy sinner since I really am one anyway in the eyes of God”?

Discuss.

Not all. In fact I was a hairs breadth away from losing faith altogether before I believed in justification by grace alone through faith alone, and imputed righteousness.

 

[Estevao]

And if I’m one of those people aimlessly wandering the road, and someone stops and offers me a ride, I’ll be far more likely to get into a ford with a polite, humble driver, than I will be to get into a BMW that’s being driven by someone with such a lofty opinion of himself and his car.

My high opinion of the BMW comes from it being manufactured by the second Person of the Trinity, God incarnate. If people want to get into cars manufactured by murderous adulterers, anti-semites and control-freak dictators, that’s their call.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Protestantism (whatever that is) doesn’t get one to Heaven. Grace alone does that.
I don’t know about a Pinto, but Christ made His way into Jerusalem on a donkey, “and a colt the foal of her that is used to the yoke.”

Plain nonsense, as is the claim that Pope Pius XII was “Hitler’s pope”, or the blaming of a 14 year old Ratzinger for being in Hitler Youth.

Jon

Plain nonsense, as is the claim that Pope Pius XII was “Hitler’s pope”, or the blaming of a 14 year old Ratzinger for being in Hitler Youth.

Total nonsense. But it sure sounds pretty good to declare that Hitler came from Luther, or that the Pope is “Hitlers Pope”.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Even if you consider the other atheists I know in person and online as well as myself, I represent a very small sample size. Still I don’t know of anyone who became an atheist due to the idea of faith alone or the idea of imputed righteousness. It was a disagreement with the basic tenets that cover most/all stripes of christianity that caused me and the people I know to be atheists. I hope that helps.