Does faith change a person?

[rcwitness]

rcwitness:

I think they are motivational sermons. I don’t think they are much different than the ones surrounding the “sinner’s prayer” calls.

I’ve heard good sermons which end in a call to the sinner’s prayer. I don’t have much problem with the sinner’s prayer.

I don’t have a problem with a sinners prayer when applied correctly. That is, it is an introduction of someone to Christ that may or may not be an indication of true conversion. I think the problem we evangelicals have had is that we automatically assume that if someone “Says the prayer” that they have come to faith in Christ. I believe much of the evangelical community is starting to realize that it isn’t always the case that the sinners prayer=faith/conversion.

Thankfully, in the circles I’m apart of we are starting to put more emphasis on discipleship of new believers and those who have said “the sinners prayer” in order to do our best to confirm that they truly have faith in Christ instead of just declaring their faith in Christ, which is sometimes done for extraneous reasons.

I agree… there are lots of ways to present the Gospel message. And it has to adjust to different levels of understanding, which individuals have.

But it all comes down to genuinely believing, and being humble in allowing the Spirit to work in us. He first has to work in us, then He can work through us.

Those who are led by the Spirit, come to His table of the Word and Eucharist with gladness!

 

[lanman87]

If you know all this, then why do Evangelicals cling to the idea that people can’t fall away?

When I say they are intellectual or cultural Christians I’m being a little facetious. Because intellectual or cultural Christians aren’t really Christians at all. They fake it well because they know the terminology and what is expected but they haven’t really been converted inwardly. Their heart hasn’t been changed.

BTW- the whole Calvinsim/Arminism thing really isn’t that big of a deal to most (not all) evangelicals. Presbyterians and strong Calvinist and Methodist are strong Arminians. But I’ve seen both fellowship together and call each other brother and support each others ministry efforts.

 

[De_Maria]

When I say they are intellectual or cultural Christians I’m being a little facetious. Because intellectual or cultural Christians aren’t really Christians at all. They fake it well because they know the terminology and what is expected but they haven’t really been converted inwardly. Their heart hasn’t been changed.

Does that really explain people who have been Christians for years, even decades? For example. I suppose many consider converts to Catholicism to have fallen away. Here’s one. He studied to be a Pastor. He grew to a ripe old age considering the Catholic Church the work of Satan. Yet, he fell away. Did he really not know his faith?

BTW- the whole Calvinsim/Arminism thing really isn’t that big of a deal to most (not all) evangelicals.

Yeah, I know. In the non-Catholic world, there is a very cavalier attitude towards the Word of God. One flavor of Christianity is as good as another. Well, except for Catholicism. But this is what Scripture says:

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Presbyterians and strong Calvinist and Methodist are strong Arminians. But I’ve seen both fellowship together and call each other brother and support each others ministry efforts.

Good for them. Unfortunately, they have divided the Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Was Calvin crucified for you?

 

[lanman87]

Does that really explain people who have been Christians for years, even decades?

Sometimes it does. I’ve seen a 70+ year old man, who had served as a deacon in the church for many years stand in front of a congregation and confess that he had never really believed in Christ until the week before. At which time he fell under conviction and finally and truly placed his faith in Christ.

I believe many of the people who are members or churches for long periods of time are faking it and fooling themselves and others. When they get tired of faking it they either have an actual conversion to Christianity or they fall away from the church and give into a sinful lifestyle.

BTW- I don’t consider an Evangelical becoming a Catholic to be a falling away. As a matter of fact, I appreciate many of the things the RCC does and stands for.

 

[lanman87]

Yeah, I know. In the non-Catholic world, there is a very cavalier attitude towards the Word of God. One flavor of Christianity is as good as another.

Is it really a bad thing that I consider all who have faith and trust in Jesus Christ as my brothers in Christ?

 

[rcwitness]

But you, yourself, just made the case that we don’t know who believes or who doesnt.

 

[hymin]

"The Church, ‘striving to proclaim the Gospel to all people,’[Cf. Ad Gentes, 1] has had the single aim of fulfilling her duty of being the messenger of the Good News of Jesus Christ - the Good News proclaimed through two fundamental commands: ‘Put on the new self’ [Cf. Eph 4:24, 2:15; Col 3:10; Gal 3:27; Rom 13:114; 2 Cor 5:17] and ‘Be reconciled to God.’ [2 Cor 5:20]
-Blessed Pope Paul VI, Evangelii Nuntiandi, 2

 

[lanman87]

But you, yourself, just made the case that we don’t know who believes or who doesnt.

No, I can’t say for certain that anyone is a true follower of Christ. In most cases there is evidence of a genuine faith however, I do belief it is possible to fake Christianity, at least for a time. Ultimately that is between them and God. However, If someone I know claims to follow Christ I respect their profession of faith and call them brother, especially if I see evidence of faith in their life.

 

[Vico]

Can someone be made a New Creation, be adopted as a Child of God and be filled with the Holy Spirit without displaying a changed life that seeks to Glorify God and seeks do the works we were created in Christ Jesus to do?

When you receive the grace (with the virtues of faith, hope, and charity), it is your free will choice to cooperate with it or not, and if you do cooperate then with each act of will your ability is strengthened that you can remain without mortal sin.

 

[rcwitness]

rcwitness:

But you, yourself, just made the case that we don’t know who believes or who doesnt.

No, I can’t say for certain that anyone is a true follower of Christ. In most cases there is evidence of a genuine faith however, I do belief it is possible to fake Christianity, at least for a time. Ultimately that is between them and God. However, If someone I know claims to follow Christ I respect their profession of faith and call them brother, especially if I see evidence of faith in their life.

True.

1 Timothy 5:24
The sins of some men are conspicuous, pointing to judgment, but the sins of others appear later.

But it’s not always about having faith or no faith.

“I believe, help my unbelief” (Mk 9:24b)

Or have you ever heard of the testimony of Gloria Polo? She was disingenuous about her Catholic devotion! Until she was judged by Jesus, and healed in order to tell her story for the rest of her days.

http://www.javaemerald.com/religion/gloria_polo_testimony.html

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Yeah, I know. In the non-Catholic world, there is a very cavalier attitude towards the Word of God. One flavor of Christianity is as good as another.

Is it really a bad thing that I consider all who have faith and trust in Jesus Christ as my brothers in Christ?

We are commanded to love even our enemies. Even the wicked. But it is a. BAd thing to call that which is wrong, right. Or that which is evil, good. And believe me, it is evil to reject the Eucharistic sacrifice. See Heb 10:25-31.

 

[De_Maria]

Again, I want to thank you for a cordial discussion with me and the other people on this forum.

Sometimes it does. I’ve seen a 70+ year old man, who had served as a deacon in the church for many years stand in front of a congregation and confess that he had never really believed in Christ until the week before. At which time he fell under conviction and finally and truly placed his faith in Christ.

I believe many of the people who are members or churches for long periods of time are faking it and fooling themselves and others. When they get tired of faking it they either have an actual conversion to Christianity or they fall away from the church and give into a sinful lifestyle.

You say, “sometimes it does” and “many of the people”. I agree with you in this. But what about the others who have been Christians for many years and have fallen away but have not been faking it? Or do you think this is impossible?

BTW- I don’t consider an Evangelical becoming a Catholic to be a falling away. As a matter of fact, I appreciate many of the things the RCC does and stands for.

Thank you. Its clear that you do. May I ask what some of those things are? (i.e. many of the things the RCC does and stands for)

 

[De_Maria]

No, I can’t say for certain that anyone is a true follower of Christ.

This is wonderful! The reason I’m saying is because I’ve always wondered at how easily Protestants and Evangelicals, would decide that this person was saved and that person was saved. But Catholics are not taught to think in terms of “I’m saved” and “you’re not saved”, because we leave the Judgment of a person’s heart to God.

We say with the Apostle, “I don’t judge even myself, because Christ is my Judge. My conscience is clean but I don’t thereby stand acquitted.” 1 Cor 4:3-4

In most cases there is evidence of a genuine faith however, I do belief it is possible to fake Christianity, at least for a time. Ultimately that is between them and God.

Amen, only God can read hearts.

However, If someone I know claims to follow Christ I respect their profession of faith and call them brother, especially if I see evidence of faith in their life.

Amen again, who ever is not against us, is with us. Mark 9:40

So, what are we supposed to do about the differences in doctrine? To me, the most important Doctrine is the Holy Eucharist. And it sincerely upsets me when I think about how non-Catholics dismiss it and reject it. This is both out of concern for their salvation and for the offense that it represents to our Lord’s Sacrifice on the Cross.

 

[ColorMomma]

I would also like to add that at the moment of Baptism, an indelible mark is made on the soul. At the moment of Baptism, the soul is as clean as it ever shall be. I would certainly call this a transformation. Granted, we can’t see it, but it’s there. I see this as a tremendous gift, to be marked with God’s mark. How could Christians not value that? We clamor to wear the logos of our favorite sports teams, why reject the mark of God Himself?

 

[De_Maria]

I would also like to add that at the moment of Baptism, an indelible mark is made on the soul. At the moment of Baptism, the soul is as clean as it ever shall be. I would certainly call this a transformation. Granted, we can’t see it, but it’s there. I see this as a tremendous gift, to be marked with God’s mark. How could Christians not value that? We clamor to wear the logos of our favorite sports teams, why reject the mark of God Himself?

The logos. What a great choice of words.

Logos (Christianity) - Wikipedia

Logos (Christianity) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In Christology, the Logos (Greek: Λόγος, lit. ‘‘Word", “Discourse”, or "Reason’’) is a name or title of Jesus Christ, seen as the pre-existent second person of the Trinity.

We receive God’s Logos in Baptism!

 

[ColorMomma]

That was completely unintentional on my part, but I love knowing this now!

 

[lanman87]

Or do you think this is impossible?

Definitely maybe. I think faith/belief/trust is the instrumental cause for salvation and all that it entails (adoption, indwelling Holy Spirit, new creation and so forth). I would say that for someone to truly fall away it would take more than a single sin or mistake, because if you truly have faith then you will recognize your sin and be convicted and repent. So I think if someone falls away it takes a complete casting off of the faith they possessed. But then again the question must be asked, if a person can cast off the gospel so easily did they really believe it to begin with?

Is our free will really powerful enough to kick the Holy Spirit out of our heart? Which is what it would take to lose our salvation. David prayed that God wouldn’t take the Holy Spirit from him. But David was a Jew and the David wasn’t indwelled with the Holy Spirit like it is a child of God.

So I guess it is something I can ponder and can see both sides of the issue. However, the overriding truth is that if you trust Christ and live for Him then you don’t have to worry about it.

 

[lanman87]

Thank you. Its clear that you do. May I ask what some of those things are? (i.e. many of the things the RCC does and stands for)

I appreciate the strong pro-life and pro-family stand of the RCC.

I appreciate the catechumen process where someone has to go through a prolonged class and training before being made members of the church. I actually told that to one of our elders at the church I attend. One of the things I don’t think most evangelical churches do well is give a firm foundation of what it means to follow Christ to new converts.

Of course, I appreciate the beauty and peacefulness of the Mass and the beauty of the architecture of many Catholic churches. Here is the lone Catholic Church in the county I grew up in.

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(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I appreciate the reverence of the Church.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Or do you think this is impossible?

Definitely maybe. I think faith/belief/trust is the instrumental cause for salvation and all that it entails (adoption, indwelling Holy Spirit, new creation and so forth). I would say that for someone to truly fall away it would take more than a single sin or mistake, because if you truly have faith then you will recognize your sin and be convicted and repent. So I think if someone falls away it takes a complete casting off of the faith they possessed. But then again the question must be asked, if a person can cast off the gospel so easily did they really believe it to begin with?

Is our free will really powerful enough to kick the Holy Spirit out of our heart? Which is what it would take to lose our salvation. David prayed that God wouldn’t take the Holy Spirit from him. But David was a Jew and the David wasn’t indwelled with the Holy Spirit like it is a child of God.

So I guess it is something I can ponder and can see both sides of the issue. However, the overriding truth is that if you trust Christ and live for Him then you don’t have to worry about it.

God illustrates our relationship to Him as a marriage. Is there such a thing as divorce? When people marry for the first time, do they do it with the idea of being divorced in the future?

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Thank you. Its clear that you do. May I ask what some of those things are? (i.e. many of the things the RCC does and stands for)

I appreciate the strong pro-life and pro-family stand of the RCC.

I appreciate the catechumen process where someone has to go through a prolonged class and training before being made members of the church. I actually told that to one of our elders at the church I attend. One of the things I don’t think most evangelical churches do well is give a firm foundation of what it means to follow Christ to new converts.

Of course, I appreciate the beauty and peacefulness of the Mass and the beauty of the architecture of many Catholic churches. Here is the lone Catholic Church in the county I grew up in.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I appreciate the reverence of the Church.

Thanks. I do too.