Does Faith mean we can never be certain that God exists?

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If we are to have Faith- the belief in something that can not be objectively realized- then we can never ever be certain that God exists.

Why do Christians always try to belittle the requirement of faith by publicizing miracles or stories about small children who swear they have been to heaven. Does this not take away from our capacity to use Faith in our relationship with God?
 
If we are to have Faith- the belief in something that can not be objectively realized- then we can never ever be certain that God exists.

Why do Christians always try to belittle the requirement of faith by publicizing miracles or stories about small children who swear they have been to heaven. Does this not take away from our capacity to use Faith in our relationship with God?
Faith is knowing that God exists. A gift from God. I have known since the age of five that God is real, He exists, He is. I know this with every ounce of my being.
 
You’re right. There will never be proof of God. Catholics and Christians everywhere try to give proof of God’s existence because the secularists demand it. Atheists are stubborn about believing in things they don’t have “proof” of, and we want them to convert so we try to give them that proof. The funny thing is, they don’t really have proof of anything at all. Atheists have no proof of their scientific theories, just logical conclusions the same as any Christian. It’s frustrating.

I agree with you, though. Faith is a beautiful thing. It’s searching deep within yourself to find your own “proof” and not shutting away anything you can’t touch or see. I don’t understand why a person would lock themselves in the tiny little box of the physical world when there’s an amazing, beautiful spiritual world out there. Or maybe I do. It’s because they’re scared. They’re scared to be wrong, and they want proof of things that they can’t see with their eyes. It’s like being scared to walk outside at night, and you need utter reassurance that there are no burglars hiding in the bushes. But you can never know that without looking in the bushes and you can’t look in the bushes without trusting that there are no burglars there in the first place, so you lock yourself inside your house and refuse to even peek out the window. And you cover up your fear with excuses like no one wants to be outside at night anyways, it’s too cold there, I have better things to do inside. And so you never get to see the stars.

So we try to give them proof. But no matter how many logical conclusions we are able to draw, we can never give proof. We’re meant to have faith, and that’s a good thing. Everybody needs faith in something. We can’t know everything; there are some points in time where you’ve just got to believe.
 
If we are to have Faith- the belief in something that can not be objectively realized- then we can never ever be certain that God exists.

Why do Christians always try to belittle the requirement of faith by publicizing miracles or stories about small children who swear they have been to heaven. Does this not take away from our capacity to use Faith in our relationship with God?
Interesting question. I know that I have been blessed with faith (even when I rejected Him, I could not stop believing in Him). A flash bang miracle might have returned me to God sooner, but knowing my character it wouldn’t have been enduring on my part or if I was a participant, I would have become the center in my mind, instead of God, causing great spiritual harm.

Others may not have been so blessed with faith, or it may have become damaged or buried. The publication of true miracles, may be the drop of water needed to help someone’s Mustard seed start to sprout. Some people are like Thomas and need to see, others may need to see and touch, yet others do not. At the end of the day, whatever it takes for someone to start an enduring relationship with God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit cannot be bad. What is bad, is when people or Satan use false miracles or lies, or even twist a true miracle to take away the focus from God.

That is just how I see it, others may see it differently (looking forward to other insights).
 
Hello Bird.
If we are to have Faith- the belief in something that can not be objectively realized- then we can never ever be certain that God exists.

Why do Christians always try to belittle the requirement of faith by publicizing miracles or stories about small children who swear they have been to heaven. Does this not take away from our capacity to use Faith in our relationship with God?
I’m inclined to say the opposite - faith is belief in all that we haven’t seen. Objective reality is transitory. Everything you see around you right now, from the computer screen you look at to read this response, the chair you’re sitting in while you do so, the sounds that come to your ears while reading, the feeling of the keys under your fingers, these are all transitory. They pass away. Heaven is eternal. It is changeless as is God. It is greater than all those things I listed. It is more real than all those things I listed. It is what lies beyond all this. And 99.99999% of us haven’t seen it before departing this life permanently.

If you want to rely on such myths and legends as little children can tell about having died and experienced “something” for your ideas of what heaven is like, then I’m going to have to object. That is a large mistake. Believing all that some publish about little children’s notions of what Heaven is foolish.

Faith is knowing that God exists without ever having seen Him personally, or touched Him with one’s own hands or heard Him with one’s own ears. We believe without seeing.

When you reach for the light switch, you have faith there will be light in the room as soon as you flip it. That too is a kind of faith.

Your statement that faith to you means never being certain that God exists isn’t what I would consider faith at all. Who do you pray to if you’re not even sure He’s there? Why bother? Why bother with anything that is required of us as Catholics if you were certain God didn’t exist because you’d never seen Him? Too me, that is bad and sad and not exactly the life I’d want.

I’ll keep my faith just they way I have it.

Glenda
 
We can know God exists by reason alone, it does NOT take faith to just believe that.

The First Vatican Council declared as such:
If anyone says that the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema.
  • First Vatican Council, Section II, Canon I
 
Faith is knowing that God exists. A gift from God. I have known since the age of five that God is real, He exists, He is. I know this with every ounce of my being.
But thats not Faith,

faith is suspending your reason and choosing to believe in something that is not of this world-that is- something we can not KNOW in the sense that we know about how the earth works and the planets orbit the sun.
 
Y Atheists have no proof of their scientific theories, just logical conclusions the same as any Christian. It’s frustrating.
Its my understanding that Atheists just limit their frame of reference to the Natural world, while we insist on the existence of a supernatural world based on our Holy Book. So while they have scientific proofs for certain natural phenomenon and no answers for some, we believe in certain truths based on the bible.
I don’t understand why a person would lock themselves in the tiny little box of the physical world when there’s an amazing, beautiful spiritual world out there. Or maybe I do. It’s because they’re scared.
From what I understand from most of my atheist friends, the reason they choose not to have faith is because they don’t recognize one Holy Book as being the authority on existence. WHile we look to the Bible for answers, they see no reason to discredit the Koran,Talmud, or even Nordic Mythology. All religions espouse some supernatural power-how can they choose who is right or wrong. Its much easier to disregard all entities that claim defy reason and focus on the natural world we live in.
 
I
Others may not have been so blessed with faith, or it may have become damaged or buried. The publication of true miracles, may be the drop of water needed to help someone’s Mustard seed start to sprout. Some people are like Thomas and need to see, others may need to see and touch, yet others do not.
I hear you, but why have miracles at all? I wish we lived in a world were everyone was saved but we don’t. If God had wanted that way we would each have our own BURNING BUSH to chat with or Arch Angel to interview. God has choose not to present us with evidence of his existence that is not rooted in Sacred Scripture.
 
Hey Glenda, thanks for your response:
Hello Bird.

I’m inclined to say the opposite - faith is belief in all that we haven’t seen. Objective reality is transitory. Everything you see around you right now, from the computer screen you look at to read this response, the chair you’re sitting in while you do so, the sounds that come to your ears while reading, the feeling of the keys under your fingers, these are all transitory. They pass away. Heaven is eternal. It is changeless as is God. It is greater than all those things I listed. It is more real than all those things I listed. It is what lies beyond all this. And 99.99999% of us haven’t seen it before departing this life permanently.
I understand your reservations and limiatations placed on this transitory world. But the belief that heaven is eternal requires a suspension of reason. We have to look around and say that there is this place that we can never prove exists (other than through divine revleation by sacred scripture)
If you want to rely on such myths and legends as little children can tell about having died and experienced “something” for your ideas of what heaven is like, then I’m going to have to object. That is a large mistake. Believing all that some publish about little children’s notions of what Heaven is foolish.
I agree with you 100% on this. Our insistence on hard proof of heaven or God, albeit human, is misplaced since the very nature of God is beyond reason.
Your statement that faith to you means never being certain that God exists isn’t what I would consider faith at all. Who do you pray to if you’re not even sure He’s there? Why bother? Why bother with anything that is required of us as Catholics if you were certain God didn’t exist because you’d never seen Him? Too me, that is bad and sad and not exactly the life I’d want.
I guess I was unclear, forgive me. I am just saying that I can never be certain God exists in the same matter that I know 2 plus 2 =4.

When I pray I do have doubts at time whether I am just talking to myself. This is even more evident when I hear all the intentions for sick people to get better, when I think in my head: God made them sick for a reason, perhaps its just their time to go.

I feel that these doubts make my faith more profound, by focusing on how bizarre this whole notion of a personal God who is constantly watching me is, I humble myself and achieve a sense of humility by dumbing myself down for God.
 
We can know God exists by reason alone, it does NOT take faith to just believe that.

The First Vatican Council declared as such:
I am confused then by the CCC
143 By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God.2 With his whole being man gives his assent to God the revealer.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c3a1.htm

If we are to submit our intellect, then does that not mean suspend or sense of disbelief-to alienate ourselves from logic and reason and buy into that which is not of this world- that which is not objectively verifiable?
 
We can be certain, in fact we should. Romans 1:19-21 talks about how God has revealed Himself through creation, thus we can know he exists. Faith defined by the holy Bible:

[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 11:1[/BIBLEDRB]
 
If we are to have Faith- the belief in something that can not be objectively realized- then we can never ever be certain that God exists.

Why do Christians always try to belittle the requirement of faith by publicizing miracles or stories about small children who swear they have been to heaven. Does this not take away from our capacity to use Faith in our relationship with God?
I think we cannot be certain of ANYTHING this side of heaven, purgatory, or hell, perhaps least of all the existence of G-d, let alone the nature of G-d. But faith gives us comfort and solace, and when our faith is strong, it is as close to certainty as we are likely to come. Further, certainty is based on reason, logic, facts, and theories, while faith, although not divorced from reason, goes beyond it to the core of our spiritual and emotional being. As Pascal said: “Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point.” (“The heart of faith has its reasons that reason is ignorant of.”)
 
But thats not Faith,

faith is suspending your reason and choosing to believe in something that is not of this world-that is- something we can not KNOW in the sense that we know about how the earth works and the planets orbit the sun.
Well, no, actually. Faith is a supernatural virtue. That means it is a gift that is bestowed upon us by God (as in a capacity or power added onto the natural powers of a human being, which is what the word “virtue” means - a capacity or power.) By exercising any virtue, the operation of that capacity becomes more robust. Faith, as a virtue, operates in conjunction with the two other supernatural virtues - hope and love -and the four cardinal virtues - prudence, justice, fortitude (or courage), and temperance (or moderation). All of these presuppose reason, intention and free will. None, not even faith, suppose a suspension of reason, but rather its full implementation.

What secular humanists and atheists demand is natural or physical evidence; that is, some measurable or observable evidence to confirm God exists in order to believe he does. That is not proof, that is a tangible and reproducible sensory experience. Proof, on the other hand, utilizes reason, and is not limited to physical evidence for a “proof” to obtain. There are many things we “know” to be true that are not evidential, in essence. We know, for example, all mathematical proofs quite apart from inductive evidence because these are derived from axioms or principles that no rational being would deny, but for which no amount of sensory evidence could ever suffice.

To insist that only tangible physical evidence counts, is to reduce human “knowing” to that of mere sentience - to claim we are no better at “knowing” than animals since they cannot apprehend using the intellect, but only using the senses. The Catholic position is that human beings are rational and can use the intellect to “grasp” or apprehend the “form” of real existing things rather than merely the immediate and sensible attributes of those entities. To “know” something is to grasp its form, its “whatness” with the intellect. To “sense” something, on the other hand, is to grasp its tangible properties with the senses. These are quite different capacities.

To demand “evidence” in a scientific sense, is to reduce everything to merely sensible attributes. Since God is not a physical or material entity, it is impossible to show the sensible attributes of God, per se, because he has none - he is immaterial. God may, on the other hand, be “known” in terms of being the fullness of intelligible transcendals or universals - truth, goodness, beauty, being, etc. - which can be apprehended by the intellect but not “sensed” or measured. God’s existence can be “proved” by logical deduction from accepted premises, but it cannot be “evidenced” because available sensory data could never amount to sufficiency of evidence.

Physical evidence can only sufficiently demonstrate the existence of physical things. God is not another physical thing, he is Being itself, who is the ground and precedent of all reality and of all existent things.

Animals do not “sense” beauty, truth or goodness, for example. Animals are capable of only the raw “experience” of physical entities, their colour, shape, size, relative location, etc. The capacity for grasping beauty, truth or goodness involves the apprehension of the abstract qualities of truth, goodness or beauty in those entities, qualities that are beyond or transcend the mere sensory data from their physical state.
 
Its my understanding that Atheists just limit their frame of reference to the Natural world, while we insist on the existence of a supernatural world based on our Holy Book. So while they have scientific proofs for certain natural phenomenon and no answers for some, we believe in certain truths based on the bible.

I don’t know. There are smaller things that we can prove, surely, but when it comes to the bigger picture it’s practically guessing. I used to be pretty into science and trying to learn about the outer world, and I still do think it’s interesting. But since humans have limited knowledge, we can never really get a perfect picture of the world, and so the conclusions that we draw based on our current picture are often flawed or simply unprovable. Just theories.

From what I understand from most of my atheist friends, the reason they choose not to have faith is because they don’t recognize one Holy Book as being the authority on existence. WHile we look to the Bible for answers, they see no reason to discredit the Koran,Talmud, or even Nordic Mythology. All religions espouse some supernatural power-how can they choose who is right or wrong. Its much easier to disregard all entities that claim defy reason and focus on the natural world we live in.
I used to be atheist, and most of my friends are. I’ve spoken with many of them about religion, and from what I can say from my experiences and others’, it’s because no one wants to make the wrong choice. At least some, not necessarily all, are just terrified to live their life with one religion and then find out it was the wrong one. And they ask me that too, often…how do you know your religion is right? How can you say that you are the correct one? So that’s where faith comes in, yeah?
 
Well, no, actually. Faith is a supernatural virtue. That means it is a gift that is bestowed upon us by God (as in a capacity or power added onto the natural powers of a human being, which is what the word “virtue” means - a capacity or power.) By exercising any virtue, the operation of that capacity becomes more robust. Faith, as a virtue, operates in conjunction with the two other supernatural virtues - hope and love -and the four cardinal virtues - prudence, justice, fortitude (or courage), and temperance (or moderation). All of these presuppose reason, intention and free will. None, not even faith, suppose a suspension of reason, but rather its full implementation.
I appreciate your answer but I will have to point out what the CCC says on faith:
By faith, man completely** submits his intellect** and his will to God.2 With his whole being man gives his assent to God the revealer. Sacred Scripture calls this human response to God, the author of revelation, “the obedience of faith”.3
This submission of the intellect requires us to take our Holy Book as divine truth. We are called to suspend our disbelief to make the commitment to making the Bible our version of the truth.
What secular humanists and atheists demand is natural or physical evidence; that is, some measurable or observable evidence to confirm God exists in order to believe he does. That is not proof, that is a tangible and reproducible sensory experience. Proof, on the other hand, utilizes reason, and is not limited to physical evidence for a “proof” to obtain.
I feel that atheists are very hesitant to put stock in any Holy Book, because of their contradicting nature. The idea of relying on the supernatural is not an option, for them as their frame of reference is the natural world and nothing else.
There are many things we “know” to be true that are not evidential, in essence. We know, for example, all mathematical proofs quite apart from inductive evidence because these are derived from axioms or principles that no rational being would deny, but for which no amount of sensory evidence could ever suffice.
What are these axioms and principles that defy natural evidence. We may extrapolate theories from hard evidence that cannot be proven, but math is based on the finite construct of certain objective realities: 2 + 2 =4.
To insist that only tangible physical evidence counts, is to reduce human “knowing” to that of mere sentience - to claim we are no better at “knowing” than animals since they cannot apprehend using the intellect, but only using the senses. The Catholic position is that human beings are rational and can use the intellect to “grasp” or apprehend the “form” of real existing things rather than merely the immediate and sensible attributes of those entities. To “know” something is to grasp its form, its “whatness” with the intellect. To “sense” something, on the other hand, is to grasp its tangible properties with the senses. These are quite different capacities.
The insistence of physical evidence is rooted in the fact that ANYTHING can have supernatural possibility. For the atheist, Odin may very well stand on the same level as Jesus in the Bible. The flying spaghetti monster can be created and as soon as you say that this creature exists in the spiritual realm-no one can disagree with you.
God’s existence can be “proved” by logical deduction from accepted premises, but it cannot be “evidenced” because available sensory data could never amount to sufficiency of evidence.
You can make an argument for GOd, but we cannot prove his existence. You can also make an argument for a flying spaghetti monster.
 
We can be certain, in fact we should. Romans 1:19-21 talks about how God has revealed Himself through creation, thus we can know he exists. Faith defined by the holy Bible:

[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 11:1[/BIBLEDRB]
I agree that we can be enthusiastic about our faith, even zealous. But to say that we can know with certainty is a no. Even your passage uses the words “hope” and “no evidence”-it is calling on us to suspend our disbelief and disregard the lack of hard evidence for God
 
No; rather it means that our certainty that God exists isn’t based on material or scientific proof.
then its based on supernatural proof- which by its very nature we can never be certain of
 
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