Does faith produce "works" automatically?

[bengal_fan]

Bengal, Sy, I take it that both of you agree that simply beleiving and never doing anything means you have dead faith, right?

i guess, but i wouldn’t word it quite like that.

i would say if you believe but works don’t flow from the grace received because of that belief, you must not have grace and that faith is a dead faith.

it’s not about us “doing”, it’s about God using us as a vessel for His purpose. the only way we can be open to Him using us is to have a faith that allows His grace to flow into us and His work then will flow out of us.

but yes, i would agree with what you are saying.
i would dare say most protestants would agree with your statement.

 

[bengal_fan]

Could it be that James and Paul mean different things by justify, just as Catholics and Protestants generally do. James is speaking of justication and salvation as being equivalent while Paul is speaking of justification as being part but not the whole of salvation?

no, i think they both are saying justification and salvation are the same. i think they mean different things by salvation (possibly and in my own opinion). to one, salvation means heaven. to the other, salvation means heaven and being used by God here on earth for His purpose. i think they both think the second part is important, but i think one of them separates the two.

again, in my opinion.

 

[Pax]

Doing good works is definitely part of sanctification which also includes showing others a Christian life. But since we are saved by grace, our works do not merit anything since it would not be by grace if we did.

I don’t really think that there is that great a difference in our positions. The Catechism does talk about works meriting grace and slavation but it also says that there can be not really talk about meriting anything from God because of the great disparity between us. So it seems to say we merit but not in a real sense by what would normally be meant by merit.

I tend to agree with you, but have difficulty with the statement that our works don’t merit anything. Scripture tells us in many places that we are to do those things that are pleasing to God. We are even told in 1 Peter 1:14-16 "As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Likewise, Hebrews 12:14 “Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”

The works that we do are completely by way of grace and all of the glory goes to God. We are, however, involved in this. We cooperate and yield ourselves to God. God’s grace is the enabler but it does not force us. Our works do have merit.

Meriting heaven is something that we cannot do. Only Jesus could do that for us. Merit before God in its most strict sense is beyond us in every way. Merit by way of God’s grace can, however, be associated with the individual. The Catechism does a great job of explaining merit.

 

[AquinasT]

As a Catholic, I agree that God’s grace is at the source of our salvation. Without grace, all are lost. I think good works are a way to demonstrate to God that we continually accept Jesus’ as our Savior, we continually accept His grace. We certainly begin with faith, but works must follow to keep that faith alive, as James clearly states. Throughout our lives God reaches out with Grace and we continually respond in faith. But it absolutely does take WORK on our part. That is where the “merit” comes in. If Grace is a free and undeserving gift (which it is) then we must OPEN the gift, use it, and show appreciation to the Giver. God does not take salvation (the GIFT) away from us - He does not withhold Grace - but if we refuse to open it, if we let it sit untouched, then we have not really received it. We may have begun in faith, but we show no fruits - and that is not salvation - it is a faith that is dead.
The Protestant notion of “once saved always saved” is false. And I know that not all Non-Catholic Christians hold that doctrine, but I think it is the source of our disagreement here, and even Protestants who reject it have a notion of it deep in their psyche. Which is why they agree with Catholicism but won’t admit it.
We cannot simply say I accepted Jesus ten years ago therefore I am saved. It requires work on our part. If you did not embrace the gift, unwrap it, make it your own, then receiving the gift did you no good? It is like burying the money in the parable instead of doing the work of investing it. Sure you still have the “faith” you received, but you have nothing to show for it. Works are necessary, and by “works” we mean a response to grace.
Thomas

 

[ralphinal]

i guess, but i wouldn’t word it quite like that.

i would say if you believe but works don’t flow from the grace received because of that belief, you must not have grace and that faith is a dead faith.

it’s not about us “doing”, it’s about God using us as a vessel for His purpose. the only way we can be open to Him using us is to have a faith that allows His grace to flow into us and His work then will flow out of us.

but yes, i would agree with what you are saying.
i would dare say most protestants would agree with your statement.

I like your explination better, anyway.

You would be surprised how many Protestants, especially Southern Baptists, that I know who say “If I have faith in Jesus, even if I never leave my house again, I am saved.” I’ve had this discussion before about things like food banks and such. My Church is no larger than the 4th largest in my little town. All of the denominations went in together on the aid center so that more could be done. It is ecumenical cooperation at its best. That said, we donate almost as much as all the others combined. I’ve asked some of them why they don’t give more, and I tend to get one of two answers. Either they don;t know about it or “Wroks don’t save you.” If Jesus said that we are lights of the world and that we should let our light shine before all that they may see the GOOD WORKS that we do and give glory to God, does that not imply that we must DO good works?

 

[Pax]

and i would say it’s part of his message about sanctification. paul if fairly clear that faith justifies. then, read paul with a james mindset and you’ll see he is speaking of being sanctified by works.

You have a point and it is well taken. Likewise, it is important to note that there is no clear division between justification and sanctification. The following verses should illustrate this:

1Cor 6:11 And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Heb 13:12
Therefore Jesus also suffered outside the city gate in order to sanctify the people by his own blood.

Acts 20:32
And now I commend you to God and to the message of his grace, a message that is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all who are sanctified.

Acts 26:18
to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

1Cor 1:2
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

Rom 6:22
But now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, the advantage you get is sanctification. The end is eternal life.

Heb 2:11
For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters,

HEB 10:9
And it is by God’s will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:29
How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

1Peter 1:2
who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:

2 Thess 2:13
But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Rom 6:7
7 For whoever has died is freed from sin. (In this verese the Greek uses the word justified; no wall of separation between justification and santification)

 

[MarcoPolo]

Likewise, Hebrews 12:14 “Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”

Pax your posts have been well spoken. And I see many verses connecting what we do with our salvation.

As Steve Ray said while explaining his conversion, when Scripture says “faith”, the authors are often using a synecdoche. It encompasses the “living the faith” part of faith. The works. This duality is often revealed when faith in God is mentioned (cf. Acts 10:35).

If our works are a result of us cooperating with Christ flowing through us, then our works most certainly should have merit. To say otherwise would be to deny His power…No? It is the same reason why our suffering is efficacious to the Mystical Body of Christ. The power of our suffering is from His Cross. These efforts on our part are cooperations with Him. God has let us share in this.

A good example, along with Pax’s verse on the matter is
Romans 8:14-17 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, “Abba, Father!” it is the Spirit Himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ,** provided we suffer with Him** in order that we may also be glorified with Him.

 

[bengal_fan]

Pax,
i do see what you are trying to say and can go along with it except for the fact that they are two different words with different meanings (especially in the original languages). i think many of us are saying some very similar things and much of this is semantics. i think luther was saying something different than what i am saying for sure, but i think some of the other reformers were closer to what i am saying.

all that to say, the issue of salvation is not what is keeping me from the catholic church.

 

[Pax]

Agreed.

 

[bengal_fan]

If our works are a result of us cooperating with Christ flowing through us, then our works most certainly should have merit. To say otherwise would be to deny His power…No?

No.

lol

i would disagree with the jump that is being made. why do our works “have” to have merit? why can’t we just do good without expecting to gain anything?

i would see works having merit almost equivalent to saying we have the ability to “force” God to do something because of our actions. it makes God subject to us instead of the other way around. if my actions mean that God is going to respond a certain way (every time) then i now have control over God.

i think it is God who has control over us. the only thing He gives to us to control is ourselves. faith is giving even that control back to God for Him to do with as He wishes. by giving Him control of us, we allow His grace to flow into us and works to flow out of us.

 

[Pax]

Our works do not have merit except by way of promise. There is nothing that is owed to us. The following scriptures show that our merit has value by way of God’s promises:

Luke 6:35
But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High;

1 Cor 3: 13-15
the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.

2 Jn 1:8
Be on your guard, so that you do not lose what we have worked for, but may receive a full reward.

Rev 22: 12
"See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work.

Once again, we always keep in mind that all is by grace and the merits won Jesus through his passion, death, and resurrection. God gives a share in this and it further abounds to His righteous mercy and glory.

 

[MarcoPolo]

No.

lol

the only thing He gives to us to control is ourselves. faith is giving even that control back to God for Him to do with as He wishes. by giving Him control of us, we allow His grace to flow into us and works to flow out of us.

I do not think I suggested we are in control of God. Your latter comment is what I am saying. These works flow out of love because of His grace. So do works that flow from Christ’s grace have no merit? I am saying to answer yes to that is to deny Christ’s grace flowing through us. Christ has shared the power of His merit with us.

 

[bengal_fan]

I do not think I suggested we are in control of God. Your latter comment is what I am saying. These works flow out of love because of His grace. So do works that flow from Christ’s grace have no merit? I am saying to answer yes to that is to deny Christ’s grace flowing through us. Christ has shared the power of His merit with us.

i think we are thinking of two different things when we say “merit”. i would say that saying “yes” to your question doesn’t deny Christ’s grace flowing through us, it supports the idea that we can do nothing to earn anything from God. by doing work, we do not deserve anything.

i think you are saying that the “merit” is Christ working through us… i can agree with that.

correct me if i’m understanding you wrong.

 

[MarcoPolo]

i think you are saying that the “merit” is Christ working through us… i can agree with that.

correct me if i’m understanding you wrong.

Sometimes my communication stinks. Perhaps if I cite the Catechism and bold a couple parts:

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.There is a bit more on this subject in the CCC.

 

[trustinyou]

Maybe someone who is Protestant can clear this up for me. I listen to Protestant preachers on most days. Today John MacArthur said what I have heard before, that works “show” our faith and that “faith alone” is still the correct understanding. So…2-fold question:

1. Does faith produce works “automatically”? Would those with genuine faith know how to behave without the Bible as a guide?
2. Do the works do nothing for our salvation? But rather, they are useful only to others so they can see our faith??

I would say faith does not produce works automatically.Its when you put your faith in action (with Gods grace and our repentance) that you begin to produce good works.Just think of how many people believe in God,The Father ,The Son,The Holy Spirit,but dont do anything (like probaly most of us on this forum were). Anyone can believe,but Jesus asked us to go futher than just believing in Him.