Does G-d WANT us to doubt His existence, omnipotence, omniscience, benevolence, and so on?

[mikekle]

A period of feeling doubt allows us to more freely turn to God with our wills. If we always experienced the good feelings Catholics call “consolations,” then it would be easy to believe in Him just for them, no? Without those assurances of God, we must really make a decision for or against Him.

Why shouldnt it be easy to believe in him? LOL Back in the days he walked the earth, he obviously had no problems showing what he could do…if he wanted people to seek him out instead of ‘just knowing’ the truth, he COULD have done nothing supernatural and just told those people to trust in him, have faith and to pray…but he did not, he chose to do miracles, and other supernatural acts right in front of crowds of people…so it it was good enough back then, what is the harm today? I dont see one, in fact, if he did something like this in front of a large crowd, video would spread like wildfire and many people would turn to the faith…essentially, the same thing he did 2000 yrs ago…??

 

[St_Francis]

But millions of people, for 2000 years, do not believe what you say above is true.
That’s the point.
If God didn’t want anyone to doubt their existence, they would have made him/herself so clear and obvious…no one would doubt it.

God’s existence is doubtable so it can be believable. IOW, because God does not to force Himself on us, because He wants us to come to Him through love, He makes it so we could go either way.

But that does not mean He *wants *us to doubt His existence–He wants us to have the choice.

Also, many people think that sending one’s child to be tortured and killed is not something an all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God would do.
To many, that action doesn’t make sense at all no matter how many times it is explained.

Many people “send” their sons to the military, where the sons risk and give their lives to protect us, their fellow citizens. This is seen as admirable.

God, as much as possible, does things on our terms precisely because He is Love–He is not a tyrant.

So what you describe above as a reason to believe is exactly the reason why many doubt an all-loving, etc, God exists.

It is a reason for many to believe, and it is a reason for many to disbelieve. A conundrum, no?

While atheists say that believers have to deal with “the problem of suffering,” I would suggest that believers say that atheists have to deal with “the problem of good.” Where does good come from in the sort of chaotic random universe the atheists apparently believe in? Why should anyone expect goodness or fairness in a random chaotic universe? Where does the idea even come from?

.

 

[St_Francis]

Why shouldnt it be easy to believe in him? LOL Back in the days he walked the earth, he obviously had no problems showing what he could do…if he wanted people to seek him out instead of ‘just knowing’ the truth, he COULD have done nothing supernatural and just told those people to trust in him, have faith and to pray…but he did not, he chose to do miracles, and other supernatural acts right in front of crowds of people…so it it was good enough back then, what is the harm today? I dont see one, in fact, if he did something like this in front of a large crowd, video would spread like wildfire and many people would turn to the faith…essentially, the same thing he did 2000 yrs ago…??

First, miracles still occur…

Second, He showed Who He was once, why should He need to continue to do so? Is He perpetually guilty that He must perpetually prove Himself?

 

[ericc]

Thats an interesting question…when you look around, it DOES seem to be that way, after all, we hear of all the supernatural things Jesus did 2000 yrs ago when he walked the earth, but in todays world, we dont see anything like that happening, I mean, everything that happens in our world, usually can be explained by science, so it does appear God does not like to ‘show his hand’ in any way in modern times, I think he wants people to rely on faith, and NOT actually knowing, but the downside to that is, people start to question if any of it is real, or just stories made up 2000 yrs ago, since they dont see any supernatural things taking place in the world today.

Christianity is a religion of faith. If Jesus continuously perform miracles in all ages (he still does it btw) whereby debunking the science of science, you don’t need faith. In fact you won’t have freewill at all because you are forced to believe in God’s existence when he is so in-your-face.

I doubt videoing would make any significant headway. Apparitions of Mary were witnessed by thousands of people, people talked and wrote about it using the technology of the day. Yet skeptics abound. Today stuff caught on video are still considered suspected of improper authenticity. 21st century technology will be dismissed by 23rd century technology as not proof of authenticity as we do to technology of yesteryear.

Before Jesus human arrival on earth, God appeared to Abraham and Moses and his tribes. God dwelled with them in the tent and miracles performed almost daily. Yet time and time again his chosen people went astray. So closeness and demonstration of superior power is no guarantee of worship. Forty years of miracles in the desert and yet the slightest hardship these Jews were willing to head back to Egypt or change gods when they started mixing with other non-Israelite tribes. We are not talking videos, these are eyewitnesses, beats technology for authenticity. Proven authenticity is no guarantee of worship.

 

[meltzerboy]

God’s existence is doubtable so it can be believable. IOW, because God does not to force Himself on us, because He wants us to come to Him through love, He makes it so we could go either way.

But that does not mean He *wants *us to doubt His existence–He wants us to have the choice.

Many people “send” their sons to the military, where the sons risk and give their lives to protect us, their fellow citizens. This is seen as admirable.

God, as much as possible, does things on our terms precisely because He is Love–He is not a tyrant.

It is a reason for many to believe, and it is a reason for many to disbelieve. A conundrum, no?

While atheists say that believers have to deal with “the problem of suffering,” I would suggest that believers say that atheists have to deal with “the problem of good.” Where does good come from in the sort of chaotic random universe the atheists apparently believe in? Why should anyone expect goodness or fairness in a random chaotic universe? Where does the idea even come from?

The problem of goodness in a random, chaotic, uncaring universe is an interesting way of putting it. Well done!

 

[meltzerboy]

God’s existence is doubtable so it can be believable. IOW, because God does not to force Himself on us, because He wants us to come to Him through love, He makes it so we could go either way.

But that does not mean He *wants *us to doubt His existence–He wants us to have the choice.

Many people “send” their sons to the military, where the sons risk and give their lives to protect us, their fellow citizens. This is seen as admirable.

God, as much as possible, does things on our terms precisely because He is Love–He is not a tyrant.

It is a reason for many to believe, and it is a reason for many to disbelieve. A conundrum, no?

While atheists say that believers have to deal with “the problem of suffering,” I would suggest that believers say that atheists have to deal with “the problem of good.” Where does good come from in the sort of chaotic random universe the atheists apparently believe in? Why should anyone expect goodness or fairness in a random chaotic universe? Where does the idea even come from?

.

The problem of goodness in a random, chaotic, uncaring universe is an interesting way of putting it. Well done!

 

[vto]

I think that if there is a god/gods, they for sure want us to doubt their existence, , omnipotence, omniscience, benevolence, and so on.

If they did not want this, they would:

1. make it more clear that they exist,
2. be kinder to people and not make so many suffer,
3. intervene more during tragedy, and,
4. not punish people for exerting “free will” --including the characters of Adam and Eve, for example–since the god/gods knew ahead of time all along what would happen.

.

1. That’s what faith is for. Even with Jesus performing so many miracles, many didn’t believe. Why was that?
2. We will only really know the reason for suffering when we are born into eternal life. It would be impossible for God to cause suffering if there were no point to it.
3. I believe God has intervened many times and we just don’t know it.
4. Adam and Eve abused their free will.

 

[mikekle]

Before Jesus human arrival on earth, God appeared to Abraham and Moses and his tribes. God dwelled with them in the tent and miracles performed almost daily. Yet time and time again his chosen people went astray. So closeness and demonstration of superior power is no guarantee of worship. Forty years of miracles in the desert and yet the slightest hardship these Jews were willing to head back to Egypt or change gods .

You bring up a good point…Goes to show how quickly Gods creation are ready to turn to the ‘next best thing’, I wonder if this is something God is concerned with, and/or how to best deal with this?

 

[St_Francis]

Well done!

I wish I could remember where I heard it–I lost a bunch of talks and this idea was on one of them. Maybe Peter Kreeft; I was listening to him a lot at the time.