Does God approve of Judas Maccabeus' praying for the dead in 2 Macc. 12?

[jamil_joseph02]

How will you respond to the Protestant in this conversation?

PROTESTANT OBJECTION: God is against Judas Maccabeus’ prayer for the dead in 2 Macc. 12:38-46, because the Jews believe in “purification” of the average person in Gehenna or lower hell.

This involves a 12-month period of purgation before the soul takes its place in Olam Ha-Ba (heavenly realm), so the Jews recite their Kaddish or memorial prayer for the dead.

The Catholic Church, while quoting 2 Maccabees 12 to support the doctrine of purgatory, does not believe in this process of “purification” in Gehenna. It teaches instead that Gehenna is only for the damned. The Catholic Church is thus citing the verse out of context because 2 Maccabees 12 is a different scenario.

CATHOLIC REPLY: Even the Catholic Church is "at least" open to the view that Gehenna is also a place of purification for the average person before the time of Christ.

From Haydock Catholic Bible Commentary:

The Jews began to pray for the dead after the captivity, (Grot.) when the prophets had more clearly explained what took place after death. C. — Yet the doctrine and practice might still be as ancient as the world. H. — If it had not prevailed before, Judas would never have entertained such sentiments. W. — The Jews admit a SORT OF PURGATORY for “the prevaricators of Israel,” which differs from hell only in duration.

From www.newadvent.org

Limbo

(Late Latin limbus) a word of Teutonic derivation, meaning literally “hem” or “border,” as of a garment, or anything joined on (cf. Italian lembo or English limb).

In theological usage the name is applied to (a) the TEMPORARY PLACE or STATE of the SOULS of the just who, although PURIFIED from sin, were excluded from the beatific vision until Christ’s triumphant ascension into Heaven (the “limbus patrum”)

Even Pope Benedict XVI said the Church “took up” this Jewish idea of “purification” in an intermediate state and developed it into the doctrine of Purgatory. From his Encyclical Letter Spe Salvi of the Supreme Pontiff Benedict XVI, to the Bishops, Priests and Deacons, Men and Women Religious, and All the Lay Faithful on Christian Hope:

“This early Jewish idea of an INTERMEDIATE STATE includes the view that these souls are not simply in a sort of temporary custody but, as the parable of the rich man illustrates, are already being punished or are experiencing a provisional form of bliss. There is also THE IDEA that this STATE CAN INVOLVE PURIFICATION AND HEALING which mature the soul for communion with God. The early Church TOOK UP THESE CONCEPTS, and in the Western Church they gradually DEVELOPED into the DOCTRINE of PURGATORY”

 

[jamil_joseph02]

(Continuation)

Catholic apologist Trent Horn quoted this statement of Pope Benedict in his book “The Case for Catholicism: Answers to Classic and Contemporary Protestant Objections,” and acknowledged the Jews’ view of Gehenna as also a STATE of PURIFICATION

“Even though Protestants do not regard the deuterocanonical books as Scripture (despite what we’ve shown), they should at least recognize their role as a historical witness to purgatory. Indeed, a careful review of Second Temple and Talmudic literature reveals the belief that GEHENNA, or the place for the wicked after death, INCLUDED A STATE OF PURIFICATION FOR LESS WICKED SOULS PRIOR TO THEIR ADMITTANCE INTO PARADISE (the Talmud says this process takes at most twelve months). 12 According to Simcha Paul Raphael, a professor of Jewish studies at Temple University, “Gehenna served as a realm of purgation and purification. . . . After this experience, the soul is sufficiently purified and able to enter the supernal postmortem realm of Gan Eden, the Garden of Eden.”13”

This is what Pope Benedict XVI has to say about “non-definitive teachings” in his Doctrinal Commentary on concluding formula of ‘Professio fidei’

The third proposition of the Professio fidei states: “Moreover, I adhere with RELIGIOUS SUBMISSION OF WILL AND INTELLECT TO THE TEACHINGS which either the Roman Pontiff or the College of Bishops enunciate when they exercise their authentic Magisterium, EVEN IF THEY DO NOT INTEND TO PROCLAIM THESE TEACHINGS BY A DEFINITIVE ACT.” To this paragraph belong all those teachings on faith and morals - PRESENTED as TRUE or AT LEAST AS SURE, EVEN IF THEY HAVE NOT BEEN DEFINED WITH A SOLEMN JUDGMENT OR PROPOSED AS DEFINITIVE BY THE ORDINARY AND UNIVERSAL MAGISTERIUM. Such teachings are, however, an authentic expression of the ordinary Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff or of the College of Bishops and therefore require religious submission of will and intellect.

PROTESTANT OBJECTION: If we are to consult the “official” teaching of the Catholic Church regarding Gehenna, it indicated that it is only for those destined for eternal punishment.

CCC 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Ergo, God and even the Catholic Church itself both reject this concept of prayers for the dead and by extension, a “purification” state in Gehenna. The “official” teaching of Church “rejects” the “opinion” or the “non-definitive teaching” of Pope Benedict XVI, Trent Horn and all other Catholic references you gave.

QUESTION: So how would you folks answer or how would you continue the conversation?

 

[twf]

Prior to Christ, all souls went to Sheol / Hades / the abode of the dead. This is sometimes translated into English as Hell. As we see in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, Hades included both a place of torment and also Abraham’s bosom for the righteous. When Christ descended into hell, he preached to the souls here and opened up the gates to heaven.

Regarding purgatory, I don’t think it’s location is a matter of Catholic dogma. Yes, we’ve often seen it as a third intermediary place, but I don’t think Catholics are bound by that. It’s my understanding that some of our Oriental brethren (Syriac and Coptic traditions come to mind), believe that purification, if required, takes place in Hades, the abode of the dead…just as it did for the Jews.

 

[Vico]

…
Ergo, God and even the Catholic Church itself both reject this concept of prayers for the dead and by extension, a “purification” state in Gehenna. The “official” teaching of Church “rejects” the “opinion” or the “non-definitive teaching” of Pope Benedict XVI, Trent Horn and all other Catholic references you gave.

QUESTION: So how would you folks answer or how would you continue the conversation?

The soul is immaterial and experiences a state after separation from the body: hell, purgatory, or heaven. However, eventually the body will be resurrected and united to the soul, at the Parousia. Prayers are helpful for the souls in the purgatorial state, which ends at the Paruosia ( Mt 25:41), after which are heaven with the glorified body or hell with the unglorified body.

 

[BartholomewB]

I see no logical contradiction between CCC 1035 and praying for the souls of the dead. The souls of those who die in mortal sin go straight to hell and stay there, but those of us who are still alive have no way of knowing who is in hell and who isn’t.

 

[jamil_joseph02]

The Protestant sees a contradiction in this way in the conversation:

Premise 1: The Church “OFFICIALLY TEACHES” that Hell or Gehenna is only for the damned

vs.

Premise 2: But the Church is also considering this “view” that Gehenna is a state of “purification” during the time of the Jews (Thus, prayers for the dead)

So how is “Gehenna is ONLY for the damned” not at a contradiction with “Gehenna is purification at the time of the Jews”, at least in your view?

 

[BartholomewB]

The soul we are praying for may not be in hell at all, but in purgatory.

 

[Todd_Easton]

The Protestant objections seem to assume that the traditional Jewish understanding of verses in the Jewish Scriptures must always be followed or those verses are being cited “out of context.” By the same logic, most, if not all, of the citations from Jewish Scriptures used by the New Testament authors to support the claim that Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah are cited “out of context” because the Jews traditionally understand those verses differently.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

PROTESTANT OBJECTION : If we are to consult the “official” teaching of the Catholic Church regarding Gehenna, it indicated that it is only for those destined for eternal punishment.

CCC 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Why is the Protestant quoting a section of the Catechism that’s discussing Hell for us to talk about Purgatory? Purgatory isn’t part of Hell, because those in Purgatory are saved, and cannot go to Hell.
Furthermore, the section of the Catechism which discusses Purgatory is CCC 1030-1032:

III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

(continued next post)

 

[Tis_Bearself]

(continued from previous post)

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609

As someone already said, the Catholic who is praying for a specific dead soul has no idea if the soul is in Hell, Purgatory or Heaven. The prayers are said with the hope that the soul was saved and in case the soul went to Purgatory; or else the prayers are generally said for “the souls in Purgatory” which presumes there are some souls there/ in that state.

We do not pray for people who are in Hell, which the Catholic Church defines as those who are not saved and who are beyond help. This is obviously not the same as the Jewish Sheol in the OT, which simply refers to all dead souls as (with the possible exception of Enoch and Elias based on Scripture) no soul could go to Heaven prior to Jesus’ death and resurrection.

 

[Dan_Defender]

It is an attempt on the part of Protestants of playing with semantics and the fact that Jews had an incomplete theological understanding at the time. Never mind that, the real question for them is why did Luther reject the doctrine of Purgatory? It has to do with the ‘once saved, always saved’ concept that he proposed.

 

[Zach]

Why would Protestants care since they don’t believe Maccabees are canonical? You’d think they’d have their hands full with books in their canon. I give no thoughts to any books not in the Catholic canon. There are enough canonical books to keep me busy and to focus my thoughts on for the rest of life even if I did nothing but read scripture every waking hour.

 

[BartholomewB]

The Protestant sees a contradiction in this way in the conversation:

The answer to the OP’s question, I think, is that the Protestant rejects the doctrine of Purgatory. It’s as simple as that. Judah Maccabee “kept the Resurrection ever in mind” (v. 43). Sheol is the unsegregated abode of the dead, where the souls of the good and the wicked are all together in the same gloomy underworld, but one day some of them will be resurrected while others won’t.

https://www.newadvent.org/bible/2ma012.htm

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Well, if the Protestant wants to argue against a Catholic teaching, it would make sense for him to argue against the Catechism section that actually sets forth the teaching, and not a section that to us does not address the teaching at all.

 

[brianjmc1]

My two cents, so take it with a grain of salt…I’m not an expert - by far!!!

The dead, BEFORE the resurrection went to the Bosom of Abraham(righteous people, e.g. Lazarus). Again, in my opinion, there was no purgatory needed before the resurrection. Purgatory WAS needed after the resurrection (Rev 21-27) to enter Heaven. No one went to Heaven before the resurrection. Remember, we are immortal spirit along with a physical body, for this reason we are to pray for each other(O.T. e.g. Hebrew 7:25). so if we are immortal beings and are instructed to pray for each other, Judas Maccabeus was correct in his action to pray for the dead…

Peace to ALL!!!