Does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist

[mcq72]

Well, we miscommunicate…the scripture reference you mentioned (when a brethren has sinned against you) has to do when someone has broken a rule, say one of the last 6 commandments (dealing with each other) We both agree that a brethren,or two or the congregation can “judge”, and that the standard, the norm, the rule, the law is usually writ…so to “rule”, to judicate is not what i am talking about but rather “the rule” , or the law by which we rule by., writ.It is understood in the passage we refer to.

 

[mcq72]

Devoid of Succession of the Apostles anyone claiming “inspiration” of the Holy Spirit to splinter the Body of Christ is living in a delusional state, much like hollowood’s spirituality.

And those that are devoid of Holy Spirit claiming apostolic succession to splinter the church is what kind of spirituality, if any?

Unfortunately goes both ways somtimes

 

[mcq72]

So when Jesus states: “I will build My Church” Judaism is brought to its culmination and as John the Baptist, it must decrease in order that Christ Increases.

The Church cannot then just simply fail to hold the Purpose to which Jesus Founded her.

Well, Judaism achieved prime purpose in saving whomsoever thru its Messiah. She has not however finished in receiving Him unto herself, not yet.

And what is the purpose of those that are called out, and baptized into Christ, the “eclessia”, the church ? Can the church succeed in its simplistic mission yet some failing to realize or understand its unfolding success, like happened in other covenants?

 

[bassmansteiny]

I love my non Catholic Christian brothers and sisters, but no I don’t think/feel that God calls them to other faith communities. Jesus wanted us all to be one. That being said, maybe there is a path home through other faith communities and that is God’s plan. I don’t know. Heck I could be wrong about all of it. All I know is that I love God and am sure those in other faith communities feel the same way.

 

[mcq72]

The Church cannot then just simply fail to hold the Purpose to which Jesus Founded her.

The Purpose of the church is not unity, but indeed unity serves the Purpose.

The Purpose of the church is best served when we are under the headship of Christ and grow into maturity of being Christ like, a “Christian”.

That it is to be Catholic, as in capital “C” and “Roman”, is debatable, but to be universal, which is can and does exist, should not be debatable

I suppose the same could be said of “communion”, the eucharist/thanksgiving.That is there is a higher calling for the rite than for it to be exclusively Catholic, as in Roman Catholic

 

[guanophore]

Afterall, it is He that inspired the text also inspires the teacher and the reader alike.

Indeed yes, and so He is also the author of the Sacred Tradition, which both produced the text, and gives the lens through which it is to be interpreted.

Yes oral conveyance by apostles/disciples could be equal but certainly writ is more comprehensive and the promise to bring all things to remembrance is sealed

Yet the documents of the NT were never intended to be a full compendium of the faith, which was committed to the Church. Jesus did not write, nor did He command the authors to write (except John the Revelation).

You are not really saying sola scriptura means without Holy Spirit

No, this is not the teaching of the Church. But that those writings were never intended to be separated from the Sacred Tradition that produced them. When they are, the interpretation of them changes to such a vast extent that “a different gospel” can be produced.

It would be wrong to suggest that because Writ tells us of Christ privately teaching disciples at times, that therefore some teachings may not be in Writ also.

Those who espouse Sola Scriptura must espouse this view, though it is false. But, if you can demonstrate from the Writings what Paul spoke about in Tyrannus, or ANYTHING from the 40 days between the Resurrection and the Ascention, I would be happy to hear it!

8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, arguing and pleading about the kingdom of God; 9 but when some were stubborn and disbelieved, speaking evil of the Way before the congregation, he withdrew from them, taking the disciples with him, and argued daily in the hall of Tyran′nus.[a] 10 This continued for two years, so that all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks. Acts 19

Acts 1:3
3 To them he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days, and speaking of the kingdom of God.

This is partly what gnostics wrongly charged.

They rightly asserted that there were teachings that were not written. It was Sacred Tradition that defeated them, since the contents of the NT had not yet been discerned. If Sacred Tradition were not the Word of God, then we would have a Gnostic Church today.

 

[mcq72]

hey rightly asserted that there were teachings that were not written.

Can you tell me what those unwritten teachings were?

 

[mcq72]

If Sacred Tradition were not the Word of God, then we would have a Gnostic Church today.

I would just say you did have a gnostic church despite the Word of God , in any fashion.

I believe there are still gnostics today.

 

[mcq72]

Yet the documents of the NT were never intended to be a full compendium of the faith, which was committed to the Church. Jesus did not write, nor did He command the authors to write (except John the Revelation).

Not sure what u mean by compendium…
But i would venture Writ was intended for much more than you admit, and it even says so…quite perfect for teaching. But of course its application and unraveling understanding and prophecy can be unfolded for milennia.

 

[guanophore]

Can you tell me what those unwritten teachings were?

Yes. They are contained in the Catechism, prayers (especially the Liturgy) and the findings of the Councils.

The most crucial part of them relates to authority, which is that which is rejected by the children of the Reformers.

I would just say you did have a gnostic church despite the Word of God , in any fashion.

I am not sure what this means. Certainly the Church founded by Christ battled many heresies, of which Gnosticism was one.

If there was a “Gnostic church”, as there is a Church of Latter Day Saints in our day, then it was man made, and was unable to persist as it was not protected by the Holy Spirit.

I believe there are still gnostics today.

I do too. I think we see a lot of this in the New Age movement.

 

[mcq72]

But that those writings were never intended to be separated from the Sacred Tradition that produced them. When they are, the interpretation of them changes to such a vast extent that “a different gospel” can be produced.

Totally agree…must be true to original intent, to apostolic teaching, and a little bit of leaven spoileth the whole lump…just a bit “off” is more than a bit bad

 

[mcq72]

But, if you can demonstrate from the Writings what Paul spoke about in Tyrannus, or ANYTHING from the 40 days between the Resurrection and the Ascention, I would be happy to hear it!

So would I…from tradition…does tradition have a “red letter” edition ?

 

[guanophore]

So would I…from tradition…does tradition have a “red letter” edition ?

You mean, besides the NT?

 

[mcq72]

You mean, besides the NT?

Touche but yes besides…what else did Jesus say that adds to the compendium of faith?

 

[mcq72]

Yes. They are contained in the Catechism , prayers (especially the Liturgy) and the findings of the Councils

what councils were apostles at besides one found in writ (jerusalem)?

What parts of catechism is attributable directly to apostles non writ teachings? Can you cite one part , number?

As to liturgy can you cite apostolic foundation for asking eucharist to be acceptable to the Father (beyond the thanksgiving that is recorded in writ and only the earliest father writing)?

 

[guanophore]

Not sure what u mean by compendium…

Compendium = Collection, compilation

But i would venture Writ was intended for much more than you admit, and it even says so…quite perfect for teaching.

It seems this would be difficult to determine, since I have not “admitted” anything about Scripture.

But i would venture Writ was intended for much more…, and it even says so…quite perfect for teaching.

This is a common misconception that accompanies Sola Scriptura. But in fact, Scripture does NOT say this about itself.

“… the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus…” 2 Tim 3

St. Paul is speaking here of the Septuagint, with which Timothy was raised. There is not a Christian today that would ever suggest we could be instructed for salvation through faith in Christ without any of the New Testament.

16 All scripture is inspired by God and[a] profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work… 2 Tim 3

You have inserted the word “perfect” to replace the word “profitable” in this passage? Or are you finding it elsewhere? The fact is that Jesus gave the task of teaching to people, not writings, however holy. The scriptures are profitable in the hands of one annointed to teach.

1 Corinthians 12:28
28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues.

Is this not the “five fold ministry” to which you like to refer? It is the duty of the teachers/pastors to equip the saints for the work of the ministry.

what councils were apostles at besides one found in writ (jerusalem)?

Now you seem to be moving the bar. You asked…

Can you tell me what those unwritten teachings were?

I said that the teachings of the Apostles, preserved infallibly by the Holy Spirit are found in the Catechism, Liturgies, prayers of the Church and the findings of the councils.

 

[guanophore]

Yes. They are contained in the Catechism , prayers (especially the Liturgy) and the findings of the Councils.

I wonder what your motive is in moving the bar?

what councils were apostles at besides one found in writ (jerusalem)?

You seem to be saying that the findings of the Councils do not actually represent Apostolic Teaching? Since you reject the concept that God was able to preserve His Word where He installed it in the Church, that makes all the councils after Jerusalem man made? If this is the case, then you have no business using the word “Trinity”, or worshipping on Sunday rather than Saturday (Scripture never set aside the Sabbath). You have no justification for the hypostatic union or the canon of the NT.

I don’t know if Calvin accepted the Councils. Many Protestants accept at least the first 7 as being acts of the Holy Spirit. Luther and Calvin accepted major parts of sacred Tradition, including the baptism of infants.

What parts of catechism is attributable directly to apostles non writ teachings? Can you cite one part , number?

The Salvific nature of Baptism and the indelible mark.

As to liturgy can you cite apostolic foundation for asking eucharist to be acceptable to the Father (beyond the thanksgiving that is recorded in writ and only the earliest father writing)?

I am not sure what you mean by this. The sacrifice we bring is ourselves, and the fruit of our labors. We pray that these offerings be acceptable to the Father.

Eucharist is what the Holy Spirit provides, not us. It is a re-presentation of the sacrifice of Christ. This is the nature of the anamnesis. It is an enacted, ritual memorial that is designed to bring the participant present to a past event, as Passover brought the Jews present to the Exodus.

 

[jcrichton]

Again, you miss out (the forest for the trees).

Two or three in gathered in Jesus’ name do not male the rule; rather, two or three gathered in His Name have His support not make rule. This is the reason why we have over thirty thousand “Christian” groups all claiming that splintering the Body of Christ is Inspired by the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus speaks of having a witness is in an effort to help bring the brother back to His Fold; only the Church is Granted the Authority to rule over the individual (as St. Peter did over the questioning of St. Paul’s Writings or St. John about who is/are the anti-Christ).

Again, Jesus does not instruct them to take to the “Writ!”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Correct!

That’s why you must seek the One Founded Church of Christ; otherwise you are left out in the cold: claiming a succession you reject and an inspiration that is constructed.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Again you are missing the boat or is it spaceship?

Judaism achieved is prime purpose in bringing forth the Promise. Once the Messiah was Revealed the new economy began:

21 Jesus saith to her: Woman, believe me, that the hour cometh, when you shall neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, adore the Father. 22 You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. 24 God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth. (St. John 4)

…as for splintering upon splintering… not once did Jesus Called His Followers to division, strife, and myriads of gospels.

Maran atha!

Angel