Does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist

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jcrichton said:
Actually, Jesus is speaking to the illicit marriages that existed–incest, social marriages, and perhaps even forced marriages (parents/oppressors hauling off girls to be married for profit/gains).
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Agreed! I tried to explain that .
Benadam said:
What God joins isn’t a couple who may look married but are really in a long term relationship. Jesus didn’t comment on it because those can be complicated situations that there no general or universal solution for. They have to be taken individually. Not that the couple must separate but tprobably should because they are fornicating and that requires a solution.
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mcq72 said:
Can remembering the reality of Calvary, as depicted by Mel Gibsons movie , ever be mere, for us personally ?
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But is not about remembrance; the cross is a sign but only those who Believe are Saved; yet, Jesus did not mean those who believe it was Written; rather, He is Speaking to this: ‘if you Love Me Obey My Commandments.’

It is easy to claim Jesus; yet, not all who claim Him Obey (St. Matthew 7:21-23).

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Wannano said:
In other words, was a Jewish marriage both a civil and religious activity? I don’t know if Jews have an Anullment process or not.
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Judaism is both a religion and culture; they seldom separated religious meanings of things from cultural. As for annulment the practice was (till the 21st century) that only a man could divorce the woman (similar to that abuse on adultery–only the woman caught in the act of adultery was brought to Jesus to be punished!); so the contract gives man the power to get another wife anytime he wants.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Wow, have you been missing out during the last 2 thousand years?:
18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. (St. Matthew 28)
40 And with very many other words did he testify and exhort them, saying: Save yourselves from this perverse generation. 41 They therefore that received his word, were baptized; and there were added in that day about three thousand souls. 42 And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers. (Acts 2)
14 I write not these things to confound you; but I admonish you as my dearest children. 15 For if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers. For in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, I have begotten you. 16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ. 17 For this cause have I sent to you Timothy, who is my dearest son and faithful in the Lord; who will put you in mind of my ways, which are in Christ Jesus; as I teach everywhere in every church. (1 Corinthians 4)
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It is called Delegation of Authority and Apostolic Succession (which includes the passing of the Faith).

Maran atha!

Angel
 
We must also look into the actual accounts Revealed in Scriptures. Jesus being God could have Called thousands to be His direct Ministers; yet, He chose only Twelve and to this He Delegated the task to pray for intervention:
**36 And seeing the multitudes, he had compassion on them: because they were distressed, and lying like sheep that have no shepherd. 37 Then he saith to his disciples, The harvest indeed is great, but the labourers are few. 38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he send forth labourers into his harvest. (St. Matthew 9)
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Then we have St. Paul, an entitled Apostle (directly converted by Jesus and infused with Jesus Mission and allowed a vision where he was gathered into Heaven) calling others to pray for him–clearly, if there is no need for intercession why bother employing such means?

Here’s the problem with “book” and “spiritual” Believers… they employ “know” faith (‘if it is in Scriptures’ or ‘if the Holy Spirit inspires me’); yet, they reject Knowledge Revealed.

Here’s what I mean:
29 Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them? 30 Why also are we in danger every hour? 31 I die daily, I protest by your glory, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord. (1 Corinthians 15)
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This passage (while mostly ignored) is loaded. It demonstrates that there are more things happening within the Church than what is being Written (Oral and Written Traditions working side by side). It demonstrates that, at her inception, the Church practiced Baptism for the dearly departed of Christians converts–even though this issue only appears once in the Sacred Writings. It also demonstrates that there are things evolving out of Judaism and being employed in Church Practice. And it also demonstrates that Jesus’ Followers are being persecuted both physically and spiritually as the Holy Spirit Unfolds Jesus’ Teachings Bringing the Church to the Fullness of Truth.

So, praying to the Saints may seem out of sync but not asking the Saint’s intervention? Well that’s like the issue with 'call no man father–yet St. Paul calls some his children… development (Unfolding of the Truth) or contradiction/circumvention?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
jcrichton said:
They also demonstrate that there is more to Apostolic Teaching than what is Written.
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I would think not doctrinally. But sure, when to honor Easter, or whether, to genuflect or sign of the cross, and various other practices.

To say they withheld doctrine from their written record only opens the door speculation turning into “law”, another tenet of faith to be subjected too…sounds so old testament
 
Yes, but only if they are Obedient.

That is the problem; recall warning, ‘you believe there is a God, good; the demons also believe, and tremble!’ (paraphrased)

So it is not enough to know/have it Written; we must, as St. James states, be doers of the Word (‘if you Love Me Obey my Commandments’); man must obey–as St. Paul puts it, ‘grieve not the Holy Spirit!’ (paraphrased)

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Actually not!

It demonstrates that we have to have both the Written and the Oral Teaching working together.

Do you recall any Scriptures that speaks to the rock in the desert, the one that water to the Hebrews?

St. Paul comes out of nowhere and claims that the Rock that gave the water (of Life) to the Hebrews, that followed them in their 40-years desert trek was Jesus. This is a Revelation that neither Jesus nor the religious Jews spoke about; was St. Paul wrong?

Just because that Knowledge was not Written in the Old Covenant Sacred Writings and just because Jesus Himself did not Reveal it, are we to reject it as not being part of God’s Revelation?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
jcrichton said:
This is a Revelation that neither Jesus nor the religious Jews spoke about; was St. Paul wrong?
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This is a revelation that Jesus chose to inspire Paul to write…so not sure how this adds to tradition ???

Either the depisit of faith is finished or itis not…either the written record is finished or it is not
 
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mcq72 said:
Just as odd for one to post that Ps merely remember that Christ died for the sins of the whole world at communion.
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I am glad you agree that it is a disparaging remark to make. Perhaps you are retaliating because someone here disparaged your perception of communion?
mcq72 said:
( not the verse itself, but rembering it during communion as “mere”, is partly how i took the post by lily)
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I understand why that hurt your feelings.
mcq72 said:
Yes, but “teachers” was partly meant as oral preaching, and partly as a “magisterial” undertaking, which I believe ties into “tradition”.
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Teachers are “tied into” Sacred Tradition, yes, but they are not the Source of it. Sacred Tradition was delivered by the Apostles to the Church as were the Scriptures. It is the duty of the Magesterium to use these “profitable” sources to teach the Word of God contained in them.
They are called a three legged stool.
mcq72 said:
Interestingly enough, how does He allude to tradition, as sacred, a third leg of truth ?
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This verse contains the three… Paul is the teaching authority appointed by Christ, instructing the faithful to hold fast to both strands of the Divine Revelation:

2 Thessalonians 2:15
15 So then, brothers and sisters,[a] stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.
 
mcq72 said:
The earliest father writings about the woman in Revelation…they say nothing about Mary’s assumption
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What early writings are those?

The bulk of the work in the first four centuries was centered around Christology and fighting various heresies. There was no need to fight about Mary, because there were no disputes regarding her. It is the same with infant baptism. It was done by the Apostles, so there was no dispute, except the argument over whether the Church should wait to the 8th day, as it was understood to take the place of circumcision.
 
mcq72 said:
I would think not doctrinally. But sure, when to honor Easter, or whether, to genuflect or sign of the cross, and various other practices.
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The Sacred Tradtition has a great deal to contribute with regard to doctrine, especially with regard to the liturgy and nature of the Sacraments. The regenerative nature of baptism being one. The date of Easter, like all feast days, is a discipline that can be changed. The other things you mention are practices, not doctrines. Eastern Catholics do not genuflect, but bow, as is the practice in the East. They do not kneel during Divine Liturgy either, but stand. In the East the sign of the Cross is done “opposite” than it is in the West.
mcq72 said:
To say they withheld doctrine from their written record only opens the door speculation turning into “law”, another tenet of faith to be subjected too…sounds so old testament
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I agree. It is absurd to suggest that any doctrine was “withheld”. The Apostles made no effort to produce a “written record of doctrine”. The NT is a collection of Sacred Writings, not all penned by Apostles. Sacred Scripture is part of the divine deposit of faith, but there was never any effort to create a full compendium of the faith. The Church never conceived that the Scriptures would be removed from the Sacred Tradition that produced them.
 
How does Oral Tradition given personally by God end if God didn’t say it would? If you say the Church’s gift of authority ended does that mean
Its intended end or it failed? Has the Church been apostate until Luther? No Real Church of Christ for more than a 1000 years? No Christians for a 1000 years?

The last part of this argument found here
 
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