Does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist

[mcq72]

Yes it has value, no question. But it is NOT as was pointed out, a permanent once for all time, get outta jail free card. As Paul says, we have to persevere till the end less we be disqualified.

Yes…my point was that such an offer of extra assurance for the most important thing in the world, eternal life with Him, has few takers (from church folk)

 

[mcq72]

Billy doesn’t quite clarify those qualifications. Nor how one is forgiven of those sins. As Fr Longenecker mentioned, one could walk away from a crusade thinking they are eternally saved and no problems by reciting a few words

yes quite possible and i think I have met a few of em. But again, many are then directed to church folk right there at the crusade, who guide beyond any initial birth. The crusade is not done in a vacuum.

 

[rcwitness]

mcq72:

steve-b:

Billy preached eternal security. This is By Billy Graham • May 28, 2012 Once a person decides to follow Jesus, can they lose their salvation later on if they commit a major sin?

Thank you …yes he did then, but with qualifications that he states, which is often misunderstood. You are not eternally secure “if you have no deeds done in faith , or live sinful life” (paraphrase Billy Graham))

Billy doesn’t quite clarify those qualifications. Nor how one is forgiven of those sins. As Fr Longenecker mentioned, one could walk away from a crusade thinking they are eternally saved and no problems by reciting a few words.

Im not really following your accusation steve.

I believe someone could walk away from a crusade believing they were eternally saved. Maybe even walk out of a bar, or a road trip somewhere and truly be eternally saved. Salvation can and does happen in a moment.

Maybe you are trying to distinguish that our salvation is not immune to falling away from eternal salvation?? Then you would have an Apostolic Teaching.

Salvation is never intended to be temporal. Its only temporal if we turn away from it and choose sin over life.

 

[rcwitness]

guanophore:

It is a fact that many Protestants do more with less.

lol…indeed we are stripped of so many religious rituals

Richard Wurmbrand. minister imprisoned by Russians years ago had sermon “the power of nothing”…about how almost stripped naked in a small cell with nothing but a bucket inside for years , yet his relationship with Christ was raw and genuine and unbreakable, and the both of them in glory.

Is the Lord’s Supper a ritual?

Someone imprisoned is to be shown mercy. We have an obligation to offer them the Sacraments.

 

[mcq72]

C.S.Lewis’ Mere Christianity and which is the default setting of Protestant Evangelicals–that is an ecclesiology that is not ecclesiology. For them the church–any church–is a man made institution, open to the vagaries of history and culture–endlessly adaptable and values free. In other words, “It doesn’t matter what church you go to as long as you love Jesus.”

Interesting …had to read some of Mere Christianity (pdf file .online) correct seems to like Billy…don’t think he he saw history and culture as “vagary” upon religion. Pretty sure he says Jesus is behind all our passions
in beliefs

“The reader should be warned that I offer no help to anyone who is hesitating
between two Christian “denominations.” You will not learn from me
whether you ought to become an Anglican, a Methodist, a Presbyterian, or
a Roman Catholic.
This omission is intentional
I hope no reader will suppose that “mere” Christianity is here put forward
as an alternative to the creeds of the existing communions —as an alternative to the creeds of the existing communions — as if a man could
adopt it in preference to Congregationalism or Greek Orthodoxy or anything
else. It is more like a hall out of which doors open into several rooms. If I can
bring anyone into that hall I shall have done what I attempted. But it is in the
rooms, not in the hall, that there are fires and chairs and meals…And above all you must be asking which door is the true one; not which pleases you best by its paint and paneling…In plain language, the question should never be: “Do I like that kind of
service?” but “Are these doctrines true: Is holiness here? Does my conscience
move me towards this? Is my reluctance to knock at this door due to my pride,
or my mere taste, or my personal dislike of this particular door-keeper?”
When you have reached your own room, be kind to those Who have chosen
different doors and to those who are still in the hall. If they are wrong
they need your prayers all the more; and if they are your enemies, then you
are under orders to pray for them. That is one of the rules common to the
whole house” preface

https://www.samizdat.qc.ca/vc/pdfs/MereChristianity_CSL.pdf

 

[mcq72]

Is the Lord’s Supper a ritual?

yes, at least (a religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order.) or a "rite, or a sacrament (a Christian rite (such as baptism or the Eucharist) that is believed to have been ordained by Christ and that is held to be a means of divine grace or to be a sign or symbol of a spiritual reality)

Someone imprisoned is to be shown mercy. We have an obligation to offer them the Sacraments.

yes, but his point was , his testimony was, that he had everything perfectly, graciously, because there was nothing else to get in the way…the ultimate, “Be still and know God”.

 

[rcwitness]

rcwitness:

Is the Lord’s Supper a ritual?

yes, at least (a religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order.) or a "rite, or a sacrament (a Christian rite (such as baptism or the Eucharist) that is believed to have been ordained by Christ and that is held to be a means of divine grace or to be a sign or symbol of a spiritual reality)

Someone imprisoned is to be shown mercy. We have an obligation to offer them the Sacraments.

yes, but his point was , his testimony was, that he had everything perfectly, graciously, because there was nothing else to get in the way…the ultimate, “Be still and know God”.

So should we all lock ourselves into deprived prisons? Or grace others by locking them away without acts of mercy or freedom?

 

[guanophore]

OSAS, that Billy preached, is what’s being challenged by Fr Longenecker. Yes, one won’t find that in scripture.

Actually, this is EXACTLY what Calvin “found in Scripture”.

I believe i mean that the lamb at passover celebrations was/ were lambs, small “l”, but symbolically foreshadowing the Lamb, but it was not His flesh…

Right, but He gave His flesh at the last supper, and on the cross. So that the anamnesis He commanded us to celebrate is one in which we consume the actual Lamb.

Isn’t it good news that all the things you list and love and exhort, are all possible but only thru a new beginning, a new birth, to be born again, by faith and grace ?

But i understand the wrench comes in when one needs a sacrament to be born again, even though they have obtained saving faith in Christ by grace, per evolving in CC doctrine.

Yes, baptism is considered the initiation Rite into the New Kingdom. What makes you think a person “needs a sacrament to be born again”? Are you under some misapprehension that the CC teaches this?

CC doctrine cannot “evolve”. Doctrine is part of the once for all divine deposit of faith from the Apostles. The CC teaches that the public revelation from God was closed at the death of the last apostles. The CC was charged with PRESERVING that which was given to us, not “evolving” it.

 

[mcq72]

So should we all lock ourselves into deprived prisons?

lol, no but be content in condition we find ourselves in, as many say here, He is not bound by anything, and exists even where nothing else does

Or grace others by locking them away without acts of mercy or freedom?

again lol,there are times a dose of that would give me better perspective…of course He can pierce any situation, circumstance ,with His glory

 

[guanophore]

Amen…pretty sure they did not (or did not need to) decree a “mortal” penalty for missing one gathering

Do you really believe that, when Jesus calls a person, and they refuse to go to Him, they are not deliberately separating themselves from His call? If a person remains in such a state, why would Jesus expect they wanted to be with Him for an eternity? He created us with free will, so that we would love HIm freely. He allows us to spurn Him.

 

[mcq72]

Right, but He gave His flesh at the last supper, and on the cross. So that the anamnesis He commanded us to celebrate is one in which we consume the actual Lamb.

yes , but how…for sure by at least eating the actual bread (why did not He keep lamb as symbol to turn into the Lamb, His flesh ?)

Yes, baptism is considered the initiation Rite into the New Kingdom. What makes you think a person “needs a sacrament to be born again”? Are you under some misapprehension that the CC teaches this?

yes, I am under impression one is born again at water baptism in CC teaching…quickening our spirit and receiving of His…again by definition of water baptism ( allowing for special circumstances when baptism not available, or where gospel has never preached etc.)

CC doctrine cannot “evolve”. Doctrine is part of the once for all divine deposit of faith from the Apostles. The CC teaches that the public revelation from God was closed at the death of the last apostles. The CC was charged with PRESERVING that which was given to us, not “evolving” it.

yes and no…understanding and even some implementation has evolved from divine deposit, as in papacy, confessional, and I believe baptism (introduction of widespread infant baptism, and belief that it is regenerational, or spirit inducing as opposed to strictly for remission of sins…part of the reason that all baptisms are valid per early pope’s (Stephen?) understanding, or misunderstanding).

 

[mcq72]

Do you really believe that, when Jesus calls a person, and they refuse to go to Him, they are not deliberately separating themselves from His call? If a person remains in such a state, why would Jesus expect they wanted to be with Him for an eternity? He created us with free will, so that we would love HIm freely. He allows us to spurn Him.

Just don’t think that going to church only 48 times instead of 52 constitute Paul’s “forsaking assembling”

I posted missing “one gathering”, and I should qualify an unexcused one (that is, one who was healthy and able), which by some churches standard is “mortal”, against church understanding of command.

 

[guanophore]

Just don’t think that going to church only 48 times instead of 52 constitute Paul’s “forsaking assembling”

I agree, but for those who have received the Real Presence from the Apostles, it is not just going to a building for a gathering. It is an encounter with the living Christ, the anamnesis that brings us to the foot of the cross. If He calls us to Him, and we refuse to come, was place ourselves in grave danger.

 

[mcq72]

I agree, but for those who have received the Real Presence from the Apostles, it is not just going to a building for a gathering. It is an encounter with the living Christ, the anamnesis that brings us to the foot of the cross. If He calls us to Him, and we refuse to come, was place ourselves in grave danger.

understand , but how often does He call ? Is it 52 Sundays, or Saturdays, Fridays.?..some parishes have a mass every day…when or how many misses is “forsaking Him” ?

 

[guanophore]

understand , but how often does He call ? Is it 52 Sundays, or Saturdays, Fridays.?..some parishes have a mass every day…when or how many misses is “forsaking Him” ?

Ahh, this is where we can rely upon the Church He founded to guide us. Although there is eucharistic celebration, the Church does not require daily participation, only on the Lord’s day, and certain specific Holy Days. If a person refuses to gather with the Church on these days, then one has chosen to rebel against Him, because one has rebelled against those He left to shepherd the flock.

It is not a matter of “how many misses”, but the nature of the miss, the attitude of the heart. A heart that is in rebellion against God is in grave danger of being lost.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

If you think that acting and thinking that Jesus is more theirs than anyone else is a mark of true reality, and that the CC is the only visible entity that portrays that, you must have poor eyesight.

Do you believe the Truth belongs to any one institutional Church?

The truth belongs to all institutional churches.

 

[Benadam]

The truth belongs to all institutional churches.

It’s all or nothing it seems. You are right about other faiths claiming to own the truth. Mormons, I would say they kind of act like the truth belongs to them. But there are things about their truth that restrict them from being able to follow through. That’s because it has to be true. JW’s make the claim, same thing but more so. So it’s either no one church owns the truth or they all do. Still, there is no one church that a separated brother will say "there they are’ the community that surrounded Jesus since the beginning. The Truth belongs to ‘that’ Church.

 

[mcq72]

The truth belongs to all institutional churches

Actually, i have been trying to check myself before using “all”, saying"many", “most”, or in this case “others”…so as to avoid the obvious objection about some churches like mormons/jws…not give an easy ammo for objectors…

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

The truth belongs to all institutional churches.

It’s all or nothing it seems. You are right about other faiths claiming to own the truth. Mormons, I would say they kind of act like the truth belongs to them. But there are things about their truth that restrict them from being able to follow through. That’s because it has to be true. JW’s make the claim, same thing but more so. So it’s either no one church owns the truth or they all do. Still, there is no one church that a separated brother will say "there they are’ the community that surrounded Jesus since the beginning. The Truth belongs to ‘that’ Church.

It is one thing to say that the truth of Jesus’ Gospel belongs to any institutional church and quite another to say that any one church owns it like maybe they “own” John the Baptists front teeth. In my mind the Truth certainly belongs in any church who claims to be a Christian Church. There are indeed some who twist the Truth that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life and put their institution in the place of a relationship with Jesus. If anyone is placing their hope and trust in their institutional church rather than in Jesus alone, they do not have the truth.

 

[LilyM]

guanophore:

Do you really believe that, when Jesus calls a person, and they refuse to go to Him, they are not deliberately separating themselves from His call? If a person remains in such a state, why would Jesus expect they wanted to be with Him for an eternity? He created us with free will, so that we would love HIm freely. He allows us to spurn Him.

Just don’t think that going to church only 48 times instead of 52 constitute Paul’s “forsaking assembling”

I posted missing “one gathering”, and I should qualify an unexcused one (that is, one who was healthy and able), which by some churches standard is “mortal”, against church understanding of command.

Skipping one single meal, for a diabetic, can disrupt their blood sugar badly enough that they will slip into a coma and die.

I would suggest that our souls are certainly every bit as badly in need of the regular spiritual nourishment of Eucharist as the body of a diabetic is of regular phyiscal nourishment. So it is entirely plausible that missing a single one can have dire consequences.