Does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist

[guanophore]

And like Manna, coming down from heaven, we give thanks, and offer back only that…thanks and praise…true eucharist…we do not offer back up the Manna, praying that it be acceptable to the Father

I see what you are saying now. Catholics do not do this either.

 

[guanophore]

You never even touched on my comment. Don’t bother with judgements if you don’t understand what is being said.

To be fair, you did not either. No one here is talking about buildings!

 

[guanophore]

The bible expresses these things just not explicitly.

I find it quite explicit, but I understand that people wearing anti-Catholic blinders do not.

 

[guanophore]

Is God still insulted?

Grieved, I think.

 

[guanophore]

Isn’t true that Cardinals in Rome are appealing to ROME with no luck?

No. There is a process of working out how doctrine is applied. They ARE “Rome”, so they are participating.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

Good luck with that one!

It sounds as though you dont’ really believe that it is possible for one to “take it to the Church”.

Oh no, I believe that is possible and Biblical. I didn’t mean how you took it. Maybe I misunderstood Rc when he said something about being able to appeal to Rome. If he meant taking it to the Church then I misunderstood. I thought he meant having an audience with the Pope or other dignitaries and I thought that impossible as I read often of Pope Francis not giving Cardinals an ear.

 

[guanophore]

We agree! I wonder if we also agree that the legitimazation of the Church was a negative thing for the Church herself? I say that admitting I hate the thought of persucution.

It does seem to be true that the Church is more pure when she is persecuted, but I am sure that God had a plan when He allowed Christianity to be decriminalized.

 

[guanophore]

neither are the several other views of remembrance

Perhaps you can enlighten those of us who think otherwise. Having participated in my fair share of “rememberances” I find them very different from the anamnesis pattered after the Passover.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

You never even touched on my comment. Don’t bother with judgements if you don’t understand what is being said.

To be fair, you did not either. No one here is talking about buildings!

I didn’t realize one must only talk about what others have already been talking about. You are right, I brought it up.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

Is God still insulted?

Grieved, I think.

That I can agree with.

 

[guanophore]

yes, but I said to end sacrifices ala OTstyle/covenant

Are you under some misapprehension that Catholics slaughter an unblemished yearling προβαίνω at Mass?

yes, and He gave us the words to remember by, He gave us the consecratoty words.

Why do you add what the High Priest did not say

We hold what has been handed down to us from the Apostles. Jesus ever lives to make intercession for us. He is both High Priest, and victim. Offering, and He who offers.

I find it a bit unsettling to go back to the idea or the time that Jesus would pray that His sacrifice on the cross would be acceptable to the Father, as if He new not the outcome, until His Resurrection…quite a solemn apprehensive prayer…seeming contrary to the celebration , the exuberance of praise and thanksgiving of an already accepted offering for us, that the eucharist came to be known for from the beginning.

The idea that Jesus did not know the outcome of the crucifixion is preposterous. It is a very solemn prayer. It is an anamnesis - a reenactment.

However the actual prayer of the priest is that “my sacrifice and yours” be acceptable. We offer ourselves along with Christ - it is that which may or may not be acceptable.

Ourselves, along with the Bread and Wine we bring.

Again, the present moment of the Last Supper, you do not find the added words that prays for acceptability before the Father, nor words to pray for changing of elements.

No, these were handed down to us from the Apostles. They are among the Sacred Traditions we were commanded to preserve.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

 

[guanophore]

the liturgy prayer says the sacrifice that is in the preists hands , meaning the elements , meaning Christ.

And how could we say or even think that Christ’s offering may or may not be acceptable ? We bring the past to present, but doesn’t sound like we should not also remember the outcome that Christ even states at the Last Supper…of His return (because of inevitable acceptability of Calvary thru and by the Resurrection)!

I think you are confused because you are not understanding the order of what is occurring. The congregation brings themselves, and all of their prayer intentions, the offering, which consists of the collection, the bread and the wine. The priest offers all this collectively on our behalf. The fruit of the vine and the bread are the work of HUMAN HANDS that is brought in offering. We offer OURSELVES in sacrifice to Him.

the elements that are brought are not Christ, they are all of human origin.

And how could we say or even think that Christ’s offering may or may not be acceptable ?

We could not, and would not.

We bring the past to present, but doesn’t sound like we should not also remember the outcome that Christ even states at the Last Supper…of His return (because of inevitable acceptability of Calvary thru and by the Resurrection)!

Indeed!

 

[Benadam]

Agree, (mostly!) If He had explicitly stated “do not build buildings or edifices” do you think we would not be visible to the world if we lived His teaching?

No, not visible unless there is a singular reality that one can point to and say " there is THE
Church" For around 1500 years that was common. Then the idea that the Church isn’t founded on rock was introduced and the Church became less visible and fewer people could point it out. Now this is the common mindset about the visibility of the Church “It’s over there a little a bit more over there, couldn’t tellya where the most church is” It’s kinda misty now.

 

[Benadam]

The fruit of the vine and the bread are the work of HUMAN HANDS that is brought in offering. We offer OURSELVES in sacrifice to Him.

Love that! This is how we are One Bread One Body. The truly singular reality I was getting at in my post above. So awesome how those truth’s are right there in every Mass.

 

[mcq72]

Not that laymen are either ordained or standing in persona Christi as the priest does, so not all as equals.

“Through Him, and with Him and in Him”. All complex, multilayered and mulridimensional

Yes thank you…heard a Melkite and other Catholuc speaking passionately about his church and priest…saying kind of like that they are old school, that only the priest touches the host…they were fervent about the rightness of not touching such holiness

Very old testament the CC priesthood…strange to continually offer sacrifice, though unbloody, of the Sacrifice that was to end priestly mediation.

 

[mcq72]

see what you are saying now. Catholics do not do this either.

Ok…and i see more of what you are saying…yet words have strong import as in added consecration words, and so does doctrine of seperate priesthood, even heirus priesthood…all seeming to implicate sacrificial offering, up to the Father, beyond sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving.

 

[mcq72]

It does seem to be true that the Church is more pure when she is persecuted, but I am sure that God had a plan when He allowed Christianity to be decriminalized.

Interesting that when Christianity was decriminalized, she then criminalized dissension.

 

[mcq72]

Perhaps you can enlighten those of us who think otherwise. Having participated in my fair share of “rememberances” I find them very different from the anamnesis pattered after the Passover.

From the outside things seem similar…we have a “president” up front, at a table with elements, asking for self examination first, then saying consecration words of our Lord and Writ…“on the night he was betrayed, He took…”…the elements are passed out, and we eat and drink, as if we were there at last supper, and Calvary, thakfully remembering our initial birth, even continual place of also breaking and dying to self, washed anew thru His goodness thru blood. What we dont have is bells and incense, a sense of seperate priesthood thru via his words and our response,praying for acceptability…but the quite the same…yet it is an internal thing isn’t it?

I mentioned to Lilyh of a catholic and a Melkite speaking about the latters priest and what he brings to the service of their mass, that no one touches the holy consecrated host, save the priest (as it should be said the catholic).

Reminded me of the good feeling one can get by participating in religious things, as it should be, but is no guarantor of it being done in spirit and truth…i mean people all over the world and all thru history haven’t been religious because it felt bad…so indeed a more complex liturgy and ritual and doctrine can seem a better fit to the heart…but all such fondness, complex or bare bone, is really based upon our perception of truth and spirit, and the sense of His bearing witness to our spirits of any rightness.

 

[mcq72]

Are you under some misapprehension that Catholics slaughter an unblemished yearling προβαίνω at Mass?

You would need an OT priest for that, and an offering up to God, with prayers of hopeful propitiation,acceptability, but no, the Lamb is unbloody now.

 

[mcq72]

The fruit of the vine and the bread are the work of HUMAN HANDS that is brought in offering. We offer OURSELVES in sacrifice to Him

That has been my point…what we bring to the table…religion has been doing this since the garden (fig leaves)…eucharist is being thankful for what He brings/ brought to the table, since the garden (animal skin) up to Calvary.