My belief is that the understanding has evolved.this is exactly what was believed and taught, and held by the One Church from that time, until this.
from knowledge can come puffiness, squeezing out love , for anything different…instead of “pacifying those who contend”, we “create schism”…Didache (both sides i suppose)Those who departed from this understanding were called heretics.
You still do not see the connection.The Church, known as Catholic, exercising its free will, has added to the words of vs 23, making the remembrance now a sacrifice (beyond thanksgiving and praise):
Your problem is that you exist in a vacuum–you and Jesus (and all of non-Catholic interpreters of Scriptures and revisionists of Church history); so, since you cannot connect the dots you find the Church at fault–it is understandable!26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. 27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. (1 Corinthians 11)
apples oranges…Why did the Gnostic not confess the Eucharist is His flesh,what is “the rest of the telling story” ?They [i.e. the Gnostics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that THE EUCHARIST IS THE FLESH OF OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. (Letter to Smyrnians 7:1)
We have 2000 years of theology. I suppose that could be compared to a quilt. More applicable would be an afghan knit. The Sacred Tradition is woven together with the Scripture in such a way that it cannot be separated. God has revealed Himself in the written word and the spoken/demonstrated Word.Thank you .Quite a lot of material, to quilt together, to explain the CC Eucharist. Many of the sections stand on their own, but seems a bit strained in a few of their connections.
The authenticity of the Eucharist comes from the Holy Spirit. I don’t understand the “Greek puffiness” you reference. The Apostles empowered the Bishops to teach with all authority, and not to let any disregard their teaching. This is not to be “overbearing” as Christ’s style of leadership is one of a servant.A bit of Greek thinking, even puffy in spots. And puffiness can offset love, as in its perceived rightness being overbeared on others.
yes and no…but to friends Jesus reveals…I would not say/judge that someone of a different communion persuasion is not a friend of Christ…certainly the Gnostics seem not to be His, even our friends,denying His fleshly death on Calvary.Doesn’t that imply that one of us is given the secrets of the kingdom (rock) the other is given parables.(mist)
The problem is that there is no indication - none - throughout the whole of the NT that either Jesus or anyone around Him (friend or foe) believed that what He was discussing when He discussed Eucharist was a mere act or symbol. All - every one - seems to have understood and spoken of it, rightly, as a very real and tangible thing.It is not sacreligious if one gives Communion it’s rightful place as an act of Remembrance and Thanksgiving in which He said it is His body not will become or made into his body.
Yes, some where looking for a free meal again.
Where does Jesus tell us that Communion is to be the most sacred visible act of worshipping Him as a community?
His flesh was given for the life of the world.
lol…no He did not, and if He did just as simply as symbolicHe said what He meant on these points quite clearly,
wow, like either/or, my way or the highway…I mean consubstantiation…so close to trans…No quibbling with consubstantiation or mere symbol there.
disagree…but yes eventually “understanding” congealed , and tradition ruled…for sure…much of history is on your side, much but not allAnd Apostolic and early church teaching is quite consistent on the point too.
Actually… it was the Jews that gave Christ’s Body a name. They forbade the Apostles and other Believers to use the Name of Christ and they became known as those of the Way.We are called to be his disciples. I don’t believe He gave the Church a name. He makes His dwelling in the hearts of men, not in buildings made by human hands.
I don’t see any Greek/ Aristotle explanation in the writ either“The bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world…”
not “is my flesh but remains bread also” (consubstantiation) and not “is a mere symbol”.
Yet, not once did Jesus stated that 'the world would believe if you believe."Agree, (mostly!) If He had explicitly stated “do not build buildings or edifices” do you think we would not be visible to the world if we lived His teaching?
There used to be a poster here going by the name Radical, and he and what seemed to be a good Catholic friend to him, had it out on this ,fascinating dialogue…but Radical said ," if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and looks like a duck…"It doesn’t have the physical attributes of His human flesh and blood, but yes, in every way that matters, it is.
…not only that but graffiti was a form of communication for the places of gathering and Worship; it is not by mere coincidence that the fish and the cross are two salient symbols for Christians.I do, in fact, since the religion was illegal for the fist 300 years, there were no “buildings”, and yet, everyone knew where to find the authentic Church. The early fathers wrote about this
Manna is manna, save that it is God given,we simply receive (and is part of John 6 discourse. But the unleavened Bread is more part of the Passover, representing purity. By the same token would it not be offensive to eat human flesh,even God’s flesh., not to mention the end of all fleshly sacrifices…? …the bread seems to be a perfect answer, sacramental elementSo why would He establish His most sacred visible act of worshipping Him as a community, using mere bread which He told the Jews did not sustain them to eternal life anyway???
…only if a person believes that God abandoned the Church right after the death of the last Apostles or that, as is erroneously taught by non-Catholics, that emperor Constantine took the reigns of the “true” Church and perverted it into the “Roman Catholic Church.”We agree! I wonder if we also agree that the legitimazation of the Church was a negative thing for the Church herself? I say that admitting I hate the thought of persucution.
it would be a problem if folks thought that…maybe the Gnostics thought that (not His real flesh on cross)…have you been talking to any ?The problem is that Christ did not offer a “symbol:”
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1)
lol…just about to go to bed, thinking i read the last post and I read this…thanks for the humor… good night, though short it will be…spring forward those clocksWow, you must have almost cardiac arrest combined with multi strokes and mental freeze when you read Scriptures that tells us that:
Interesting how you appeal to Scriptures and reject them simultaneously; did Scriptures tell you that those who were to be saved simply stayed home and took bread and wine and remembered Jesus or does Scriptures tell you that all who were to be saved gathered together with the Apostles and Broke Bread?Of course we are living sacrifices, but as in every second of our lives, not needing a priest for we are one ourselves ( and of course which includes what we do at Sunday gathering)…we are to be many things, just not sure that everything is attached to remembrance of Calvary sacrament…quite a broad focus… not sure it was so from the beginning.