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rcwitness
Guest
How then are we to receive Eucharist?rcwitness:
yet Augustine says leave your teeth and belly behind
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jcrichton
Guest
Exactly!
You seem to limit your understanding to “not found in Scriptures” when Scriptures do not attest to such limited understanding of God’s Revelation!
Maran atha!
Angel
You seem to limit your understanding to “not found in Scriptures” when Scriptures do not attest to such limited understanding of God’s Revelation!
Maran atha!
Angel
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mcq72
Guest
misquoting and cherry picking are two different things…vocabulary…lol
Again, like writ that says the bread is, so does Augustine…does not do away with possibility of figurative.
“Commend:to entrust for care or preservation”…what is to be preserved ? His body? No, for it is eternal . I would say what is to be preserved and entrusted is the latter, "which He poured out for us, for the forgiveness if sins, the new covenant, the gospel…Alleluia…praise and thanksgiving be given to God. And so it has been called “Thanksgiving” or in Greek “Eucharist”.
The Lord entrusted, preserved the remembrance of such to the communion rite and its symbols.
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mcq72
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Eucharist should be a verb, not a noun…vocabulary ?
We give “eucharist”, we give thanksgiving for the bread and wine and what they mean (just like old Passover).
But understand, today Eucharist is a noun, as in sanctified bread and wine, being the focus (and in several understandings of “sanctified”).
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rcwitness
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Eucharist was the name given to the consecrated bread and wine. The figures (bread and wine), combined with the Word of God, become His Eucharist, which is His Body and Blood.rcwitness:
Eucharist should be a verb, not a noun…vocabulary ?
We give “eucharist”, we give thanksgiving for the bread and wine and what they mean (just like old Passover).
But understand, today Eucharist is a noun, as in sanctified bread and wine, being the focus (and in several understandings of “sanctified”).
The bread and wine are symbols. These symbols are gifts (representing the offerings of us). They become the body and blood of our Lord, in a mysterious manner, yet true substance of the risen Lord!
We dont eat for our bellies, but for consumation with our Lord, who came in the flesh to become our sacrificial Lamb. We eat in obedience and in complete spiritual faith. We dont believe in His manifested presence through carnal senses, but faith in knowing Him and His Church.
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Agathon
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He’s saying that the Eucharist, although in forms of bread and wine, is food that profits us eternally.
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mcq72
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So does he say you eat the Lord’s flesh with your teeth and bellies ?
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susanlo
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John 6mcq72:
How then are we to receive Eucharist?rcwitness:
yet Augustine says leave your teeth and belly behind
26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”
32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty."
Augustine: Tractate 25 (John 6:15-44)
“12. They said therefore unto Him, What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? For He had said to them, Labor not for the meat which perishes, but for that which endures unto eternal life. What shall we do? they ask; by observing what, shall we be able to fulfill this precept? Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent. This is then to eat the meat, not that which perishes, but that which endures unto eternal life. To what purpose do you make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and you have eaten already. Faith is indeed distinguished from works, even as the apostle says, that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law: Romans 3:28”
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701025.htm
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mcq72
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Amen…thank you…I think he goes on to say that Peter ate that day in John 6 , as per his confession of faith…so whatever eating His flesh is, Peter did it, in John 6
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rcwitness
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Then why does Jesus establish a real eating and drinking, if real bread and wine were what He was NOT talking about?
Look, i agree that there is figurative meaning in “eating the bread of God”!!!
Yet, Jesus combines the figure, with substance! He calls the bread His body, and the cup His blood! This bring the figure into a manifestation of His own substanance.
Look, i agree that there is figurative meaning in “eating the bread of God”!!!
Yet, Jesus combines the figure, with substance! He calls the bread His body, and the cup His blood! This bring the figure into a manifestation of His own substanance.
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Agathon
Guest
- For my flesh, says He, is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. For while by meat and drink men seek to attain to this, neither to hunger nor thirst, there is nothing that truly affords this, except this meat and drink, which does render them by whom it is taken immortal and incorruptible; that is, the very fellowship of the saints, where will be peace and unity, full and perfect. Therefore, indeed, it is, even as men of God understood this before us, that our Lord Jesus Christ has pointed our minds to His body and blood in those things, which from being many are reduced to some one thing. For a unity is formed by many grains forming together; and another unity is effected by the clustering together of many berries.
- In a word, He now explains how that which He speaks of comes to pass, and what it is to eat His body and to drink His blood. He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him. This it is, therefore, for a man to eat that meat and to drink that drink, to dwell in Christ, and to have Christ dwelling in him. Consequently, he that dwells not in Christ, and in whom Christ dwells not, doubtless neither eats His flesh [spiritually] nor drinks His blood [although he may press the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ carnally and visibly with his teeth], but rather does he eat and drink the sacrament of so great a thing to his own judgment, because he, being unclean, has presumed to come to the sacraments of Christ, which no man takes worthily except he that is pure: of such it is said, Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Matthew 5:8
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rcwitness
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Yes. Eating has a figurative meaning and a literal meaning. Both are a receiving, and both are accomplished in His Eucharist.
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mcq72
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understand…John 6 is John 6 and the Last supper is just that…by the way , john 6 and augustine deal not just with bread of life eating but eating His flesh if I recall…takes the figurative eating.
As to the instituting the last supper,I think He tells us why…as a remembrance…my take is that if Peter ate by faith and its confession, a spiritual, figurative eating, then why should Supper be any different, to take His words figuratively.
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susanlo
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I didn’t find that, but I didn’t read the whole thing yet.
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rcwitness
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Because the consecration is not figurative, but really eating His self.rcwitness:
understand…John 6 is John 6 and the Last supper is just that…by the way , john 6 and augustine deal not just with bread of life eating but eating His flesh if I recall…takes the figurative eating.
As to the instituting the last supper,I think He tells us why…as a remembrance…my take is that if Peter ate by faith and its confession, a spiritual, figurative eating, then why should Supper be any different, to take His words figuratively.
The Sacrament is joining the figurative and the literal!
Just like when Jesus washed the disciple’s feet, if Peter rejected the literal washing, He was also rejecting the figurative washing!!
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susanlo
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This is the part from John 6:53 in Tractate 26. He didn’t write about the concept of transubstantiation. He quoted the verse and gave a spiritual explanation. This is consistent with his other writings.
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mcq72
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ok…but same could be said for a figurative eating…as Jesus washes our feet, but no more needed, we now eat (beyond confession of faith that Peter had) consecrated bread and wine, but no more needed.
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rcwitness
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Both are needed. And without the literal eating, we lose our relationship with Him! We would not even have a Bible (canon of Scripture) without the Church! So how could we all receive the same Scriptures???rcwitness:
ok…but same could be said for a figurative eating…as Jesus washes our feet, but no more needed, we now eat (beyond confession of faith that Peter had) consecrated bread and wine, but no more needed.
The Lord’s Supper means coming to Him, where He gave His body and blood! He bound Himself to the Church, and we fully know Him through the Church.
If you believe in Him, and receive His Word, you are a member of the Body who feeds on Him. If you feed on His Spirit, His Spirit will feed you with His flesh and blood!
All who seek God, come to this meal, with thanksgiving for what He did in the flesh, and continues to do through those who are in Him and He in them.
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Agathon
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He specifically mentioned the Sacrament. What more should he have said?
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mcq72
Guest
We certainly say more.
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