Does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

That’s wonderful.

 

[Alex337]

So, back on topic.

Yes, but you will never believe that so why bother asking.

 

[guanophore]

I think then we would risk presumption.

This seems like such an odd response for someone who claims she was led away from the Catholic Church by a personal experience of the Divine!

You claim that you have never felt so close to God, and that it was He who led you to the Quaker community. If you cannot have your understanding elevated by revelation from God, then how could this be?

You already testified that you felt called to do that which was against you human will and intentions, which is one of the factors that persuaded you it was God who was leading you. Therefore you affirm that God’s call and revelation can, and does, go contrary to the human will and understanding.

Maybe some of our understanding is so inspired,

You have been insisting for many posts that a human can only have human understanding, unless they are God incarnate.

even then our human understanding needs to fit it in to the rest of our life.

This sounds like a Humanist perspective. God does not reveal things to us that He does not enable us to do and understand. While our human understanding is part of this, it is too limited to comprise all that God has revealed.

 

[Alex337]

I don’t think any of us understand all of what God does. And while God can lead is we are still human and our understanding is still human, and that’s not so bad: He made humans after all.

 

[Vico]

Do you believe God calls believers to be preachers and teachers in churches separated from Holy Communion with the Bishop of Rome?

Some that call themselves Christians do not believe in the Trinity. The non-Catholics do not have the fullness of faith, but since we are in a journey there are various paths to the fullness of the faith.

Catechism

799 Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world.

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

 

[mcq72]

I think then we would risk presumption. Maybe some of our understanding is so inspired, but even then our human understanding needs to fit it in to the rest of our life.

On the one hand Paul says “we now see thru a glass darkly, but then face to face (in heaven)” yet John says “ye have an unction from the Holy Ghost and know all things,… little children”

I partly like the old Jewish tradition where they will not verbalize “God” and even spell it, “G_d”…I like the awe and reverence…on the other hand, Paul says we can boldly go into the holy of holies, and we even cry out “Abba Father”

The human experience is two fold or two paths, realities. One is carnal, as in spiritually dead, the other is where we are born again, our spirit which was dead in trespasses and sin , being quickened by His grace and forgiveness.

Bottom line, we are made in His image, which is spirit. The spirit connects to God, but only after being revived from sin, in new birth, where all things become new, all things (thoughts, emotions, awareness, spiritual perception etc.).

No one can call Jesus Lord and Savior , unless by the Holy Ghost with in…hence by divine inspiration, as accounted to Peter after his profession as to whom Jesus was…that flesh and blood hath not revealed it to him, but came from the Father above.

The human mind is a wonderful gift, but at best, can only lead one to a precipice that says, jump, even die, for it is vain to try to apprehend God alone, not being able to overcome sin…hence we lean not on our own understanding …but by faith…which that too is His free gift…to those that diligently ask ,seek…even that by grace.

Peace…and may I be preaching to the choir.

 

[guanophore]

I certainly have not. I

You are the parent, so it is your decision.

Heresy will be planted.

Remember that Protestants also share in much Catholic faith. But the “preaching” is very “neutral” and it is an environment which encourages faith and prayer.

I hope, for her sake, this is the case.

I am giving Alex the benefit of doubt that an encounter with a spirit did happen. He wishes to call this spirit the Christian God. He then professes beliefs which are at odds with the whole of Christianity.

It is easy for me to accept that a spiritual experience occurred. Clearly the result was a departure from Christianity. We know them by their fruits.

So we can see that Jesus does recognize “a marriage” can exist which is not a Christian marriage.

I am mindful of the time He told the Samaritan woman to go fetch her husband.

Actually I asked you whether it did.

If we all agree that a civil union can exist that is inconsistent with Christian matrimony, can we move forward?

You believe it means incest

Among other things, yes. People who do not have experience with tribal cultures have difficulty grasping this concept. Within the clan, many relatives are too close for marriage. They are considered relatives and near kin.

But that is not the only reason there may be an invalid marriage.

the word Jesus likely never said

This seems like an odd argument, since you don’t accept the Scripture as inspired and inerrant anyway, why would it matter what word He used?

Don’t you think His disciples understood what He meant?

So as mine is a matter of faith and is informed by God my opinion is valid. Or is it only your opinion and people you agree with?

Neither. We judge these private revelations against the public revelation. Since you reject what God has already revealed to the Church, we conclude that it was not God that was informing you, as He does not contradict Himself.

you have a tendency to see what is not there

I think that Alex337 does “see” thing things, and they are there for her. The fact that they are not “there” for the rest of us is irrelevant to her, as she believes they are from God.

Heh, dude

If you will drag your mouse over a selection of text and click on the 'quote" button that appears, then your readers will know where your post is directed.

 

[guanophore]

Your’s directly contradicts the faith.

I don’t think that Alex337 really believes that there is a “faith” that has been validly handed down from the Apostles. This lets her embrace any beliefs that the rest of us see as departing from the One Faith.

I’ve been showing this thread to the English staffroom

How interesting. I wonder why you feel you need their support for your personal spiritual issues?

Correction, it contradicts your faith.

You make a very good point here, Alex227. For those who have received the Apostolic faith, there is One Faith, One Church, and a consistency of doctrine that does not vary with individuals, communities, or years (millenia). For those who have fallen into modernism, the One Faith taught by the Apostles does not exist. So those who embrace it are accused of it being their personal opinions or beliefs, rather than embracing a unity of teachings that came from Christ.

do you believe all translations to be concurrently true and unflawed?

I thought we already covered this ground? I guess you keep going back to it because, for some reason, the “translations” are what enables you to discount that the original manuscripts are inspired and inerrant. In doing this, you are rejecting what God has said about His Word. You have embraced a non-Christian position.

I don’t think all Bibles are free of error.

Catholics, of course, will have no argument with this.

you have said that I am Christian because I was baptised, then I wasn’t

This is true. When you were validly baptized, you were joined to the Body of Christ. Your spirit was imprinted with an indelible seal that cannot be removed. After that, you chose to reject the faith into which you were baptized. You have adopted views that are not Christian.

2 Peter 2:20 “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first.”

This last state is worse because there is no way to reconcile those who reject the One Faith into which they were baptized.

Hebrews 10:29 “How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?”

 

[guanophore]

In the end your… opinion doesn’t matter.

One has to wonder why you have posted so many times in this thread, and why you are on CAF at all? Obviously, engaging with others who have different opinions is important to you.

So, your claim not to care is not supported by the evidence.

Quakers are a recognised Christian sect

They are recognized as a “church” according to the federal govt, and they did have Christian foundations, but they are no longer Christian.

If I decide to sleep in my garage, and call myself a car, it does not make it happen!

even the Catholic priest who I spoke with this afternoon (I wanted to let him know I was leaving) agrees I’m still Christian

Clearly he is not in possession of all the facts, but it was nice of you to say goodbye.

I think he knows more about this than you.

If he really does know all the anti-Catholic positions you hold, and still wants to affirm that you are Christian, someone ought to talk to his bishop.

One has to wonder why it was so important to you to get some kind of affirmation from Him, without giving him all the facts.

Ah, you know better than the clergy and the priest who has known me

Of course not. We can only go off what you have posted here, which is not Christian.

The Catholic church has never, to my knowledge, claimed that Quakers aren’t Christian.

Perhaps, like me, they are not fully informed about the changes that have occurred. When I first encountered Quakers in the early 80’s they were still close to their puritan roots. Obviously a lot has changed. It was not until I started reading your posts, and the Quaker site, that I understood they had departed from Christianity.

I’d go with following Jesus being the important bit.

This is another example of a departure from Christian faith. Christianity begins with valid Trinitarian Baptism. If you wish to redefine the Christian faith according to your own desires, you are free to do so , but this does not change the facts.

 

[feed_me]

Yes because their is true christianity in both sides of the church, or should i say there is sheep in both sides of the church just like there is dogs in both sides of the church, not everybody in the catholic church is going to make it into the Kingdom of God.

 

[Alex337]

That’s a really good insight. I’ll think on this and pray, thank you.

 

[guanophore]

You do know many, many, many protestant churches don’t call things sacraments, right? That’s like calling a group “not Christian” because they attend a “service” rather than a mass.

No.

Trinitarian baptism is a valid sacrament no matter who does it, so long as they intend what the Church intends. It can be done by a Muslim. Valid Sacraments require appropriate form, matter, and intention.

I also take it you didn’t read the link:
“In the early Church, the laying on of hands on the newly baptized to impart the gift of the Holy Spirit was the origin of the sacrament of confirmation.”

A Catholic will not argue with this. Confirmation does not take the place of Trinitarian Baptism. Ask your priest! If you are honest, and show the Quaker site, he will tell you the same thing.

Quakers take a lot from the early days because of their roots.

It is sad to see that they have become disconnected from them.

 

[Alex337]

Because we are friends who like discussing these things and some of the poor logic on the thread has been rather funny.

I also don’t think we’ve seen the original manuscript.

Sorry, dude, still Christian no matter how much you dislike it. I’ll pray for you.

 

[Alex337]

I’m still on CAF for the good discussions, admittedly the one with you has been pretty bad but that happens. It’s still taught me that I need to work harder on my pacifism, and that’s valuable.

Sorry, dude, my priest knows I think some Bibles have translation problems; that’s not the heresy you seem to think it is.

 

[Alex337]

Your opinion and only that, friend. I’ll pray for you.

 

[guanophore]

At no point have I rejected the teachings of Jesus.

I have no doubt that you have convinced yourself this is true, but it is not.

I have disagreed with your interpretation of them i

Actually, no.

You have disagreed with what is taught by the successors of the Apostles.

a great many protestant churches have; but you accept that they are Christian.

If they still retain basic Christian doctrines, yes, we recognize them as Christian. You have rejected enough of these to place you outside the definition of what it means to be a Christian.

Why would it be important to you that anyone here at CAF agree with your belief that you are Christian? You have your own personal spiritual experience. You have your priests’ affirmation. You have your community where you are happy.

And the Catholic church accepts that protestants have a different interpretation but remain Christian.

We accept valid Trinitarian Baptism. The Apostles taught that we are made members of His One Body, the Church in this manner.

Baptism takes many forms. Water, river, oil.

I think you are confused. A river used in valid baptism contains water. Oil is not used as a substitute for water baptism.

 

[Alex337]

The priest and people with actual degrees in theological study disagree with you. Sorry. Still Christian.

 

[guanophore]

Quakers remain Christian

I think some do, but clearly, this is not necessary to be a modern Quaker.

the baptism of spirit is a very real thing; the presence of the holy ghost means more than water or oil.

Indeed yes, but the Apostles taught that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit during water baptism. It is a spiritual work that changes our hearts. There is no distinction between water baptism and the presence of the Holy Ghost.

many protestants even disagree with how many sacraments there are.

Yes, but the CC accepts valid, Trinitarian water baptism because they intend what the Church intends. There is proper form, matter and intention. Quakers do not have this.

Any protestant denomination who disagrees with how many sacraments there are isn’t valid?

No.

You do know that protestants don’t do Catholic sacraments, right?

If they do valid Trinitarian water baptism, they do (at least one).

if you honestly think that the only thing that makes you Christian is water, rather than the presence and belief in the holy spirit,

Such a statement indicates that you were never well formed as a Catholic, and have left the faith into which you were baptized in a state of grievous ignorance.

For Catholics, there is no separation in water baptism from the Spirit in which we are sealed at that moment.

Yet Christians have also always realized that the necessity of water baptism is a normative

Let me get this right, you are using the exceptions to support your assertion that one does not need to have water baptism to be Christian? I doubt very much you would be willing to die for your faith.

end of the day your opinion means nothing

One has to wonder, if this is the case, why you are working so hard to change it!

I followed God to where I am and it’s great.

So why is it so important for you to get validated by people here at CAF and your priest, who clearly does not understand the extent of your apostasy?

Yes we do. You just don’t like the lack of trappings we have around it.

I am sure you believe this, but it is not what the Apostles believed and taught. Honestly, Christian baptism does not have "trappings’ either.

you may believe the Catholic church gets to decide what group is Christian but I’m pretty sure God decides who is

There is no separation between the two. Jesus only founded one Church, and He gave them authority to bind and loose. He taught them all they needed to know, and they passed this to their successors.

 

[Alex337]

It would likely help if you read the link I posted a while ago.

You can doubt all you like. It doesn’t change matters.

I suppose I dislike ignorance and arguments formed on poor and contradictory foundations, it’s the English teacher in me and likely I should pray for peace and work on my pacifism.

 

[Alex337]

Honestly, Alex337! You are on a Catholic Apologetics site claiming to have espoused non-Christian ways of life. What made you remotely think we would “lay off”?

Because I never left Christian ways of life and even if I had you crossed the path into bullying a long time ago. Which is needless.