Does God care if I'm a vegetarian?

[Cpl_Ferro]

I’m just wondering here - would you eat meat that was able to graze freely and was slaughtered humanely? You are against factory farming (and it is terrible), but are you against free range meat and eggs?

Peace…

MW

My only problem is with modern inhumane (or ancient inhumane, for that matter) methods of animal agriculture. So, yes, I would eat humanely raised and slaughtered animals.

I realise, however, that it’s a lost cause. Just the responses I get on this board are proof enough of that. Factory farming will never end, it will only get more humane once genetic engineering allows us to grow vat-meat and boneless chickens more cheaply than raising, slaughtering, and rendering the real thing. And if that doesn’t happen due to calamity or legislation, the animal nightmare will continue forever.

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

My viewpoints are forced on you by your own Catechismal quotations. If God created the animals and indicated that we should be kind to them, then it behooves us to avoid contributing the the problem. That is God’s opinion. Unless you want to argue that God doesn’t really care about animals, in which case my opinion loses all weight with you.

I find it thoroughly twisted society gives so much hand-wringing weight to individual cases of animal abuse, while at the same time continuing to sustain factory farms.

That’s not what I was talking about and I don’t appreciate you twisting my words around to serve your own viewpoints. Read the rest of my post, and you will understand. Unless, of course, you just don’t want to…

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

My only problem is with modern inhumane (or ancient inhumane, for that matter) methods of animal agriculture. So, yes, I would eat humanely raised and slaughtered animals.

That’s fine. I was just trying to get a better sense of your position. I was vegetarian for a few years - from 2004-2007. Actually, I became Buddhist during this time and one day I realized that I could’ve been eating my ancestors reborn and quit right then and there.

I also learned about nutrition and the existence of factory farming. Sadly, I have to travel and would be confined in meetings with little or no available veggie options. I would bring protein bars to sustain myself.

Eventually, I began to integrate meat more and more back into my diet and no longer restrain myself. This is regrettable and I want to get back to that lifestyle. So, I understand your concerns and agree with animal treatment.

I realise, however, that it’s a lost cause. Just the responses I get on this board are proof enough of that. Factory farming will never end, it will only get more humane once genetic engineering allows us to grow vat-meat and boneless chickens more cheaply than raising, slaughtering, and rendering the real thing. And if that doesn’t happen due to calamity or legislation, the animal nightmare will continue forever.

Well, I don’t think we should consider it a lost cause. But we have to understand that culture plays a big part in the battle. For example, I was born and raised in the South. When I became vegetarian I wouldn’t eat Thanksgiving turkey. My parents were very hurt by this and thought I was neglecting our heritage. I was thought of as a very weird person . I still am, but still

There’s a tremendous amount of pressure to conform and it’s difficult to overcome that. Don’t give up yet if that’s what you truly want to fight for. Believe it or not, I believe our society is becoming more open to vegetarianism, but sometimes change is very, very slow.

Peace…

MW

 

[Catholic90]

That’s not what I was talking about and I don’t appreciate you twisting my words around to serve your own viewpoints. Read the rest of my post, and you will understand. Unless, of course, you just don’t want to…

I don’t think he wants to understand…I think he thinks his dietary choices somehow make him superior to others - which of course, they do NOT! He is trying to drive that fallacy home to others.

His thought process is in error.

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

My viewpoints are forced on you by your own Catechismal quotations. If God created the animals and indicated that we should be kind to them, then it behooves us to avoid contributing the the problem. That is God’s opinion. Unless you want to argue that God doesn’t really care about animals, in which case my opinion loses all weight with you.

I find it thoroughly twisted society gives so much hand-wringing weight to individual cases of animal abuse, while at the same time continuing to sustain factory farms.

I am not playing along in this game. You are twisting my words around, so I have no good reason to respond any longer. I wish you would read the rest of my post. I DO care about animals.

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

I don’t think he wants to understand…I think he thinks his dietary choices somehow make him superior to others - which of course, they do NOT! He is trying to drive that fallacy home to others.

His thought process is in error.

I agree. It’s unfortunate that some will just not listen. If he would read the rest of my post, he would see that I love animals and I try to choose organic items when possible. I just can’t process a completely vegetarian diet.

 

[Zooey]

You and I used to hold the same beliefs. I used to be a vegetarian/vegan until my body couldn’t stand it anymore. I hated the choices that supermarkets and restaurants give vegetarians because, where I live, there are VERY few choices.

Please don’t force your viewpoints on others. It is not a part of Catholicism to be a vegetarian, so to say that, “no one else should want to be a part of it either,” is an opinion not fact.

I commend you for holding tight to your beliefs, but if it doesn’t benefit others, and we are allowed to eat meat, then there is no logic in saying that all must be vegetarians simply because of modern day practices. There are some, like me, who cannot live off vegetables and non-meat items alone. My body simply cannot handle it. It is a shame that animals are being treated the way they are in some plants, but that doesn’t mean we should abstain from ALL meat. I am a big supporter of organic sources, and I try to choose that as much as I can.

:sad_yes:

I grew up on a family farm and I can tell you are animals were NOT treated inhuman. I agree that there are some factories that do treat their livestock inhumanly but do not throw out the baby with bath water on this statement. There are many, many other farms that do not.

I am not playing along in this game. You are twisting my words around, so I have no good reason to respond any longer. I wish you would read the rest of my post. I DO care about animals.

:sad_yes:

I agree. It’s unfortunate that some will just not listen. If he would read the rest of my post, he would see that I love animals and I try to choose organic items when possible. I just can’t process a completely vegetarian diet.

:sad_yes:
I really do believe that someone can be called to vegetarianism. I deeply respect that. But it is a call, not an occasion for looking down on others.

I am like you, Carmelite Girl: I can’t live on that type of diet.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

My only problem is with modern inhumane (or ancient inhumane, for that matter) methods of animal agriculture. So, yes, I would eat humanely raised and slaughtered animals.

Sounds like you need to take up hunting. Humanely raised animals and your in control of their humane death and butchering.

 

[mojave19]

By far the best book on this topic is Matthew Scully’s “Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy.” He’s a former speechwriter for GW Bush and a Christian (Catholic educated, but I don’t recall reading if he’s still Catholic or of a different denomination.)

I think this is an area where’s it’s high time we humbly admit a bit of a moral blind spot, just as we have yet to do with smoking. (E.g., why should we Catholics fret so much more about an adolescent boy self-pleasuring than people addicting and killing themselves through smoking? I speak as one who witnessed both my mom and dad slowly suffocate themselves to their deaths via cigarette-caused emphysema.)

I could go on and on with sad examples from our history…tolerating slavery, Jew hating, belittling women, etc., but my point is that despite our link to the one true Church, we can nevertheless indeed have blind spots. Nostra culpa, nostra maxima culpa!

Both Pope JP II was, and our current pope is, each a great lover of animals. How could any friend of God not be? Google John Paul II’s cat dream. Pope Benedict spoke very clearly about the abuse of animals in factory farms and in the creation of foie gras (a French “delicacy” popular in Europe, Quebec, and in “fine” eateries here and abroad: it’s produced by force feeding geese and ducks by tubes forced down their throats).
See goveg.com/f-popebenedictxvi.asp

I can understand starving people eating meat if it’s all they have access to, but in developed countries there is a plethora of alternatives that are actually far healthier than eating meat. Next time you’re in a good bookstore, just peruse the vegetarian cook books and take a look at Vegetarian Times magazine that features great international veg recipes by top chefs. If you think you’re limited to rabbit food, VT is a great place to get informed.

There is also an entire side issue of the enormous impact that the raising of cattle has on the availability world grain and fresh water supplies, plus its huge carbon footprint (supposedly fifth in rate among cars, factories, et al.) that Al Gore hasn’t peeped a bit about.

I can’t help thinking it may be a form of gluttony for one to insist on eating meat from factory farm slaughtered animals basically because “it tastes good”–back to the issue of self-pleasuring?
By buying such meat, we continue the demand for it, and thus continue the inhumane treatment of God’s creatures. That’s where our moral culpability kicks in.

 

[Daedelus76]

How close to a human being does something have to be before it’s murder? How about eating chimpanzees, or elephants? I guess you cannot absolutely prove animals are sentient. Then again, you really can’t prove human beings are sentient either. How do I know all the other people I see aren’t just empty automatons like Descartes said of animals? There’s no way to prove it directly.

I was reading a website on Catholic mysticism, metaphysics, and inter-religious dialogue with Buddhists and Hindus innerexplorations.com/ewtext/east-wes.htm . One person, I’m presuming a Catholic, described a mystical experience they had of “no-self”. This person felt like they were part of a consciousness that extended beyond their physical body into everything else, and plants and animals in particular had some kind of consciousness in them too, and they had a feeling of benevolence or compassion for everything. This person had been a hunter but after the experience they quit hunting (I don’t think they became a vegetarian, though). I found it interesting because I’ve had a similar mystical experience from meditation- this person has a different religious background but has what seems to be the same experience.

With the theory of evolution, which the Catholic Church accepts somewhat (right?), there’s no clear cutoff point between human and animal, at least based on the scientific evidence the distinction is somewhat blurred. Alot of “primitive”, atavistic cultures with shamanistic beliefs had an awareness of human beings as part of nature, not standing above it, the animals were the “brothers” of human beings. People hunted to survive, but they didn’t make lofty excuses why they did it. If anything, perhaps civilization has distorted the “natural order” by trying to put people above the rest of the nature, alieating human beings from reality.

 

[Daedelus76]

One thing I gave up after my experience was my self righteousness about being a vegetarian. I gave up on thinking about things are “good” or “bad” like that. It’s true that nature is “red in tooth and claw”, but it’s also at the same time life-giving, mysterious, beautiful. A continuous process of life overcomming death. Something dies so that something can live. I’ve read/listened to Alan Watts and for him that was the esoteric meaning of the crucifixion- he dabbled in Zen and Hinduism alot in his life (though he was born Anglican and dabbled in that too) but later in his life before he died he was interested in Process philosophy/theology, probably connecting with the “panentheism” of it.

 

[Cpl_Ferro]

By far the best book on this topic is Matthew Scully’s “Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy.” He’s a former speechwriter for GW Bush and a Christian (Catholic educated, but I don’t recall reading if he’s still Catholic or of a different denomination.)

…

I can’t help thinking it may be a form of gluttony for one to insist on eating meat from factory farm slaughtered animals basically because “it tastes good”–back to the issue of self-pleasuring?
By buying such meat, we continue the demand for it, and thus continue the inhumane treatment of God’s creatures. That’s where our moral culpability kicks in.

Thanks for this post and the book recommendation. I find I lack the will to fight any more; neither God nor man will stop this horror from continuing. But, thanks for the effort.

 

[Cpl_Ferro]

…If anything, perhaps civilization has distorted the “natural order” by trying to put people above the rest of the nature, alieating human beings from reality.

People are above the rest of nature, by virtue of our cognitive faculty, that is, our ability to discover universal physical principles and use them to remake society and the world so as to increase our power to exist. If any animal can do this, they are human, too, and eating them is cannibalism. I hate when vegetarianism is associated with New Age spirituality because it leads to a belittling of man and his accomplishments, telling us we should all be at one with the asparagus or something.

 

[mojave19]

But of course not all New Agers are vegetarian (I lived practically in a colony of them in the hills above L.A. where most were maybe fish/chickarians, but not vegetarian). And not all ideas that New Agers generally propose are all that bad: eating healthful foods, shunning materialism and violence, promoting tolerance among those of differing creeds, colors, ages, etc.,
“All truth is God’s truth.” St. Thomas Aquinas

 

[Kathrin]

First to say, I am a vegetarian too.


I think it is much more important WHY we do something like that than what we do. If we do something out of love, I believe God loves us for it.

Kathrin

 

[mojave19]

I’d eat a chicken that was fried alive; it’d still be finger lickin’ good.

Get your priorites in order:

1. Babies are being aborted with much more cruelty than any chicken is being fried with.
2. Children are starving in Africa who would give anything for just a taste of food or a sip of clean water.

Be angry about that.
Don’t be angry Chick-fil-A doesn’t name and pet their chickens before they chop them into filets.

The logic of this kind of talk bothers me. It’s as if vegetarians and people concerned about animal welfare are virtually contributing to human misery.

OK, then if animal lovers should be redirecting their energies toward saving aborted babies and the starving, why stop with them? Shouldn’t then car lovers, people who collect nice furniture, ladies who get their nails done, and ANYBODY who has any outside interest or non-essential expenditure also be just as guilty of not saving aborted babies and the starving in Africa?
And who is to say any particular animal lover is not also involved in bettering their own species as well?

 

[Jermosh]

Being a vegetarian or Vegan is fine. Where it will go wrong is if you are attempting to treat a animal as a person. I would bet a lot of pet owners would save their pet before saving another human, that to me is just wrong.

 

[Abiien]

1. Animals do not have souls.
2. Animals do not have free will.
3. Animals glorify God perpetually in their being.

This is a simple topic. Just as they recently mentioned it is sinful to detrimentally effect the environment (such as buying a hummer, or a bulldozer and driving through a rainforest on your way to work… just an example ) , animals are to be respected for their being. However, we were created with all dominance over them. There is nothing wrong with being vegetarian! God created all we see and can know. Ask yourself this question : Do you think it is necessary to eat everything God created? We have an appendix, obviously long ago the Human Race enjoyed tree bark, or other cellulose-filled treats. However, we have changed from that. Are we wrong that we don’t use that part of our body anymore? No! And i think to voluntarily give up meat for the glory of God, even if it means to not eat… lets say Dog’s because of the Michael Vick deal. However, i think that instances where chickens are possibly cooked alive there is nothing wrong with that because we are eating it, and they would die regardless. They have no souls, so when they die nothing happens. All dog’s do not go to heaven.

I am not a theologian, or philosopher though, so what i say is not sound. But I think that it’s a cool thing to ponder!

God bless you all

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

I’ve been a vegetarian for many years now out of outrage over the inhuman practises of factory farms. Most people around me probably get a little chuckle out of it as they indifferently consume meat products. Does God care one way or another?

It’s an interesting question. I would say that God considers both vegetarianism and veganism to be righteous because the vegan diet is what God originally intended for man. He gave Adam and Eve fruits, nuts, and plants to eat and it wasn’t until after the Fall that man started eating meat. God allowed the consumption of meat with certain restrictions after the Fall but I also believe that he would not approve of the way animals are treated in our modern society.

 

[Highwayhound]

Why would anyone define themselves by what they eat or what they do not eat?

I am not my stomach. I am myself. It is my soul which matters.

God bless