Does God Cause Evil?

[Pound_Coolish]

If God can do anything, he could stop any evil. If you can stop evil and don’t, then you are responsible for the evil and partially its cause. Why is God not responsible for and partially the cause of evil?

Please understand, this is not a question about why there is evil in the world. There are many good reasons, including evil results from free will and you can’t have one without the other. This question is purely how is God not considered to be causing the evil in the world even though He could stop it without even trying.

(I’m beginning to think my Christianity hinges on this question. Many theologians have tried to answer for centuries and I don’t know whether they succeeded but I haven’t found an answer yet. But an answer seems necessary because you can’t follow someone, least of all an entity, that, so far as the evidence goes, is the cause of all evil from starvation to rape and call yourself a moral human being.)

Thank you!

 

[friardchips]

He allows for free will and for the opportunity for people to change their hearts and go back to Him.

When seen with the eyes of love, it is easier to see that Creation is oriented towards Him. He is there prompting us in all different ways, in Creation, to change, to grow.

This includes allowing for evil men to change their hearts.

Real justice and mercy are considered the things of Heaven and can surely be applied on earth, and those on earth, are His eyes and ears, heads and hands etc…and if open to Him will do what is necessary to deal with any situation, with wisdom.

It is not that He wants those who are being tormented to be tormented, it is that those who are doing the tormenting are not open to change, that those who could stop the torment sometimes won’t, and sometimes the people being tormented are so very open to him that they choose Him over their own lives.

Ultimately, none of this is cruel but forgiving and merciful because to allow for evil to be converted is merciful even on them, and up to that point of change, it is up to others to help bring that change about - whether to stop a force of evil or to convert it, he has given us the power, in Him, and He in us, to make the changes. And because the reward is either eternal bliss or unending suffering, we might then better see why He keeps the doors open. No pain in this world can measure up against the bliss which can be, which is offered to every person, in the next.

 

[Pound_Coolish]

Thank you for your kind reply.

When seen with the eyes of love, it is easier to see that Creation is oriented towards Him. He is there prompting us in all different ways, in Creation, to change, to grow.

This includes allowing for evil men to change their hearts.

Real justice and mercy are considered the things of Heaven and can surely be applied on earth, and those on earth, are His eyes and ears, heads and hands etc…and if open to Him will do what is necessary to deal with any situation, with wisdom.

Yes, that’s a good reason why there is evil in the world. I agree there are many reasons for that, all very good reasons. I understand that the ideal and necessary system allowing for free will and such could not exist if things were not as they were. Still, again, that is not my question. It what prevents God from being a cause of evil in the world, by way of allowing for it when in power to stop it. (If someone saw a girl being raped and didn’t help, they’d be partially to blame for the rape. God sees *all *the rapes throughout all of time all in His one eternal moment of existence. He does not stop them. How is he not to blame?)

In any case, to be raped for instance seems strange mercy. Allowing that it is merciful, it is nonetheless evil. Evil that God is allowing.

And because the reward is either eternal bliss or unending suffering, we might then better see why He keeps the doors open. No pain in this world can measure up against the bliss which can be, which is offered to every person, in the next.

Yes, the bliss of heaven is unimaginably greater than the pain of rape or loss or starvation. Still, to be raped still isn’t nice. A right doesn’t justify a wrong.

 

[thistle]

If God can do anything, he could stop any evil. If you can stop evil and don’t, then you are responsible for the evil and partially its cause. Why is God not responsible for and partially the cause of evil?

Please understand, this is not a question about why there is evil in the world. There are many good reasons, including evil results from free will and you can’t have one without the other. This question is purely how is God not considered to be causing the evil in the world even though He could stop it without even trying.

(I’m beginning to think my Christianity hinges on this question. Many theologians have tried to answer for centuries and I don’t know whether they succeeded but I haven’t found an answer yet. But an answer seems necessary because you can’t follow someone, least of all an entity, that, so far as the evidence goes, is the cause of all evil from starvation to rape and call yourself a moral human being.)

Thank you!

I recommend these books:

Why Does God Permit Evil by Dom Bruno Webb, O.S.B.

Making Sense Out Of Suffering by Peter Kreeft.

 

[Pound_Coolish]

Ooh, book recommendations. Thanks.

The first one doesn’t sound like it’ll address my question. It’s called Why Does God Permit Evil so I assume that’s what it talks about? Does it address my question somewhere all the same?

The second one sounds fun because Peter Kreeft. Brilliant chap. Though I looked into it and it doesn’t sound like it’l address my question either. I may buy it though.

 

[friardchips]

Thank you for your kind reply.
Yes, that’s a good reason why there is evil in the world. I agree there are many reasons for that, all very good reasons. I understand that the ideal and necessary system allowing for free will and such could not exist if things were not as they were. Still, again, that is not my question. It what prevents God from being a cause of evil in the world, by way of allowing for it when in power to stop it. (If someone saw a girl being raped and didn’t help, they’d be partially to blame for the rape. God sees *all *the rapes throughout all of time all in His one eternal moment of existence. He does not stop them. How is he not to blame?)

In any case, to be raped for instance seems strange mercy. Allowing that it is merciful, it is nonetheless evil. Evil that God is allowing.

Yes, the bliss of heaven is unimaginably greater than the pain of rape or loss or starvation. Still, to be raped still isn’t nice. A right doesn’t justify a wrong.

It does actually answer your question but not in a way you can see that it does.

So, let’s tackle this a different way.

It would not be merciful if our Creator were to not give us the choice to go to Him. This would be dictatorial. Even the angels had a choice!

Let us rather think of our Creator as not allowing evil. This is also as true as the first premise but in a stricter sense. Because if we choose eternal life and His Kingdom we are not permitted to do evil. So we can say that to exist in love forever we are to not only love Him but to love one another. This is the prerequisite for Heaven and a guide for life lived with compassion.

The easiest way to treat the subject is to remember that all that is good, all that is loving, is of our Creator.

This means that doing evil is turning away from love. We walk outside of the blessing which we have that is life.

I cannot force another to follow my way. And it would be aggressive to do so.

So with your reasoning, are you suggesting. that it would not be evil to force people to understand Him? Like a theocracy? There are groups such as ISIS out there who think it is okay to force people into undestanding everything they think their understanding is (not sure what they think that is, btw…!).

I don’t think you are saying that. So you mean: why doesn’t our Creator protect those who are victims of violence and is not doing so evil, because He could?

Our Creator has Willed life, and in life, all things are to come to Him through a certain Way, through our Lord, and this way means we are to serve others and pray for them too. This cannot always stop everyone in every place from choosing the other path. This IS the answer. No it is not evil. Because nothing our Creator does is evil. It is humankind who fell to original sin, but through the New Adam, we can have eternal life, by His sacrifice - and joining with His passion brings us to life through redemptive suffering.

It is not so much that you need to look up apologetics but to find a book which explains about redeptive suffering, IMO.

Also, we have to be careful not to think that our Creator did not endow every human with a conscience of sorts. He made Creation and " saw that it was good". Can you be so sure that on some level, in creation, through people, or in the said-perpertrator’s mind, or heart, our Creator did not appeal to them? Just a thought!

All the best!

 

[friardchips]

…sorry, one other point that came to me:

Our Creator, being good and loving, is particularly heard in the hearts of the vulnerable and suffering. He is heard in the plea of the unborn through the mouths of those who try to defend their lives, He is in the heart of every suffering man, woman and child on this earth, who cry out for our care and love, our compassion. When a person is in danger of being harmed by another, the person who does the harm has a choice to harm or to not, and if they choose to inflict harm, they are ignoring not only the person’s own personal dignity, but our Lord in that person - they are also hurting our Lord. Our Creator calls all of us to goodness with every breath we breathe in life.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

If God can do anything, he could stop any evil. If you can stop evil and don’t, then you are responsible for the evil and partially its cause. Why is God not responsible for and partially the cause of evil?

Please understand, this is not a question about why there is evil in the world. There are many good reasons, including evil results from free will and you can’t have one without the other. This question is purely how is God not considered to be causing the evil in the world even though He could stop it without even trying.

(I’m beginning to think my Christianity hinges on this question. Many theologians have tried to answer for centuries and I don’t know whether they succeeded but I haven’t found an answer yet. But an answer seems necessary because you can’t follow someone, least of all an entity, that, so far as the evidence goes, is the cause of all evil from starvation to rape and call yourself a moral human being.)

Thank you!

Have you tried reflecting on what it means to “cause” something else.
Catholic theologians base their understanding of causality on four different aspects that always operate together.

Under one of those aspects, the material cause, I would agree with you that God does “cause” evil.

However this is the most indirect and innocuous of the four causes and few people would hold God responsible for merely being the material cause of Satan, apples and the human heart.

 

[friardchips]

Have you tried reflecting on what it means to “cause” something else.
Catholic theologians base their understanding of causality on four different aspects that always operate together.

Under one of those aspects, the material cause, I would agree with you that God does “cause” evil.

However this is the most indirect and innocuous of the four causes and few people would hold God responsible for merely being the material cause of Satan, apples and the human heart.

The idea that our Creator “does cause evil”, is not accepted as Catholic understanding, anywhere, in any shape or form.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Aren’t WE the ones who create evil ‘ontologically’ by defining everything in relative terms with respect to God?

If God is Light, we ‘create’ a category called non-light (darkness).

If God is Love, we ‘create’ a category for all else that fails to match the purity of His Love.

If God didn’t exist we would have no objective need for antonym words like Good/Evil, Light/Dark, etc. because there would be no objective benchmark.

…and “pain” would be just another routine sensation that didn’t really mean anything.

So, in reality, all those theodicy questions actually point to God’s existence. Because if God didn’t exist, atheist parents would have nobody else to blame when their children ask;
…why did you bring me into a world where suffering/evil exists?

 

[Blue_Horizon]

The idea that our Creator “does cause evil”, is not accepted as Catholic understanding, anywhere, in any shape or form.

OK, you are entitled to make personal assertions but how about providing me something more than unsubstantiated intuitions.

But my own assertions come from the equiv of a Catholic Masters degree in Theology majoring in Aquinas and the philosophy of Aristotle (including his views on the four-fold nature of causality) much used by Catholic theologians in the last 900 years.

If you understand this stock standard theology then please quote something from Aquinas or Aristotle or the Magisterium to deny my own assertion, I am open to the possibility that I may have misunderstood my philosophic principles in this area?

I was very specific, if God makes creatures capable of evil then why is He not to be identified as in some way a material cause of evil?

 

[oldcelt]

OK, you are entitled to make personal assertions but how about providing me something more than unsubstantiated intuitions.

But my own assertions come from the equiv of a Catholic Masters degree in Theology majoring in Aquinas and the philosophy of Aristotle (including his views on the four-fold nature of causality) much used by Catholic theologians in the last 900 years.

If you understand this stock standard theology then please quote something from Aquinas or Aristotle or the Magisterium to deny my own assertion, I am open to the possibility that I may have misunderstood my philosophic principles in this area?

I was very specific, if God makes creatures capable of evil then why is He not to be identified as in some way a material cause of evil?

I propose that the act of creation combined with infallible foreknowledge fosters a degree of responsibility. The Christian God knew in advance that Satan and his cohorts would rebel, yet still created them.

 

[Rhubarb]

Well, if we take God to be the first cause - the unmoved mover - and all subsequent effects (which can then be causes themselves) trace back in a causal chain to that first cause, then in a sense isn’t God the cause of ALL things including evil?

 

[belorg]

Well, if we take God to be the first cause - the unmoved mover - and all subsequent effects (which can then be causes themselves) trace back in a causal chain to that first cause, then in a sense isn’t God the cause of ALL things including evil?

Yes. And let’s not forget that God, according to e.g. Thomas of Aquino, is not merely a first mover, He is also thought to be the sustainer of everything that exists.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Well, if we take God to be the first cause - the unmoved mover - and all subsequent effects (which can then be causes themselves) trace back in a causal chain to that first cause, then in a sense isn’t God the cause of ALL things including evil?

Again, we need distinguish different types of causality as Aristotle did (there are four according to him and the Church).

Since the Enlightenment, non classically educated Europeans are only dimly aware of two types of cause which science proposes: material and efficient (or agent) cause.

While God created free-will as a power in the material make-up of both angels and humans (hence I suggest He is at least their material cause)…God is not the direct agent cause of their evil acts.

These created beings use their own free-will badly and are the primary agents of the evil they do.

As modern man (and science) regards efficient causality as THE main cause in causality it follows that God cannot be easily attributed the primary responsibility for evil in the world.

Even if God is sustaining these beings in a continuous act of causality that needs to be teased out a little more. While that might make God look like an agent/efficient cause of evil I would disagree.

He is simply sustaining in existence the material being of these other agents of evil - that still doesn’t make God the direct efficient cause of their acts … but only the natural powers by which they choose to act.

What great love that must be … like a compassionate Father he suffers the indiginities of his wayward children yet still feeds, clothes and houses them … remaining loyal to his promise of life to them despite the fact they prove themselves unworthy.

 

[laircy]

Evil is a lacking, and lacking does not need a cause. Effects are the positive things that require a cause.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Evil is a lacking, and lacking does not need a cause. Effects are the positive things that require a cause.

I know what you mean but maybe not quite.

Evil (a lack of due perfection in something) is indeed an effect - as is any change.
Therefore it does need a cause because all change has four causes as Aristotle states.

I think what you may really be saying is that evil (like a shadow) cannot exist in itself - it always requires the logical pre-existence of something else whose expected perfection it inhibits.

 

[Pound_Coolish]

Have you tried reflecting on what it means to “cause” something else.
Catholic theologians base their understanding of causality on four different aspects that always operate together.

Under one of those aspects, the material cause, I would agree with you that God does “cause” evil.

However this is the most indirect and innocuous of the four causes and few people would hold God responsible for merely being the material cause of Satan, apples and the human heart.

Thank you so much, that sounds promising! Could you elaborate, please? What are the four causes? (I’ve heard of them but they escape me.) Can you fit one of the qualifications without truly causing something? And could you recommend any reading material?

Evil is a lacking, and lacking does not need a cause. Effects are the positive things that require a cause.

It’s true nothingness is nothing, and so doesn’t require a cause. But the physical deeds and effects require a cause.

 

[ynotzap]

As I see it: God made all things good. Because of free will man can cause evil, evil is not a positive thing, but the absence of the good, like darkness is the absence of light, or cold is the absence of heat. Nothing is completely evil. God gives man the power to choose, and he can choose to do evil, so God becomes the accidental cause of evil, not it’s direct cause. If it were not for the good, evil would not exist. God allows these negative conditions to exist, He can not create an “infallible man” for only God is Omniscient. So man is naturally fallible, limited. Sin and evil becomes a negative reality. Even Satan is good from the point of view that he is an angel, created good, his choice made him evil but didn’t change his nature which is good, created by God. Nothing is completely evil. God can draw good from an evil situation, that’s why He allows it.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Thank you so much, that sounds promising! Could you elaborate, please? What are the four causes? (I’ve heard of them but they escape me.)

Hi PC, glad it was helpful.

Keep in mind that true Philosophy is not Q&A like a teacher dolloping water into a bucket.
Its hard work (ie reflecting deeply) most of the time and if it isn’t hard one is rarely learning.

So I am simply going to give you what I believe is a helpful and clear link and you need to do your own homework.
plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle/#FouCauAccExpAde
Have a look half way down the page … point 7.

Can you fit one of the qualifications without truly causing something?

Sounds like you still don’t think classically but are trapped (understandably) in a post-Enlightenment (“science”) way of understanding causality.

As I mentioned below modern science rejects Aristotle’s understanding and only accepts his “efficient cause” as the real cause.

That is why you still haven’t got your head around things. Different causes have different degrees and ways of “involvement” in making a thing to be what it now is. If they are a cause then they are a cause! But are they a primary and active cause … or maybe a more remote passive cause.

I can see God being a remote passive cause of creatures that are themselves the active causes of evil. So what. How does that make God actively evil? (which is what people really mean).

It’s true nothingness is nothing, and so doesn’t require a cause.

If you are assuming evil doesn’t require a cause because it is nothing then I don’t believe this is clear thinking.

Evil is not “nothing”.
Evil is a privation (a lack) in “something”.
If something is supposed to have a perfection but for some reason it does not actually have it … then there must be a cause for this imperfection, this lack.
Otherwise why would we say something is “due” to it that it does not yet have.