Does God even want you to believe in Him?

  • Thread starter Thread starter St_Gregory
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

St_Gregory

Guest
I thought I’d give a new twist to the God-question:

It seems that God, if He exists, and if He cares at all about humans, has made us rational creatures capable or at least some moral agency. Yet He has not made Himself or His nature clear to us. In fact, if He exists, He has created the world in such a way that He is not obvious in any real sense of the word.

So it is not posible that God wants us to exercise our reason and our moral agency without Him? Afterall, even if God does exist - we’re stuck here on earth and should do our duty here.

It might be that God wants us to create ideas about Him to relate to; but He certainly hasn’t told us precisely anything about Himself (since human language cannot speak really about the Divine: we can only speak of God negatively or analogically).

Of course if you want to play the revelation card; you have to also justify that your claimed revelation of religious tradition is true - which I’m not even sure is possible.
 
I thought I’d give a new twist to the God-question:

It seems that God, if He exists, and if He cares at all about humans, has made us rational creatures capable or at least some moral agency. Yet He has not made Himself or His nature clear to us. In fact, if He exists, He has created the world in such a way that He is not obvious in any real sense of the word.

So it is not posible that God wants us to exercise our reason and our moral agency without Him? Afterall, even if God does exist - we’re stuck here on earth and should do our duty here.

It might be that God wants us to create ideas about Him to relate to; but He certainly hasn’t told us precisely anything about Himself (since human language cannot speak really about the Divine: we can only speak of God negatively or analogically).

Of course if you want to play the revelation card; you have to also justify that your claimed revelation of religious tradition is true - which I’m not even sure is possible.
You pick an odd day to ask this question. I would think any Catholic has to answer (today in particular) with only three words, “Christ is Risen!”

If you believe that Christ rose from the dead, then God, in fact, made himself known to us.

And, without God, how do you have any idea what your “duty” on earth is?

God Bless and Happy Easter! Christ is Risen! Truly He is risen!
 
I thought I’d give a new twist to the God-question:

It seems that God, if He exists, and if He cares at all about humans, has made us rational creatures capable or at least some moral agency. Yet He has not made Himself or His nature clear to us. In fact, if He exists, He has created the world in such a way that He is not obvious in any real sense of the word.

So it is not posible that God wants us to exercise our reason and our moral agency without Him? Afterall, even if God does exist - we’re stuck here on earth and should do our duty here.

It might be that God wants us to create ideas about Him to relate to; but He certainly hasn’t told us precisely anything about Himself (since human language cannot speak really about the Divine: we can only speak of God negatively or analogically).

Of course if you want to play the revelation card; you have to also justify that your claimed revelation of religious tradition is true - which I’m not even sure is possible.
a. “God has not made Himself or His nature clear to us.”

I disagree. From the use of the rational faculty alone we can see clearly in nature that God is infinitely intelligent, has a sense of order and purpose, is beautiful, is infinitely large, and above all, that he exists (see St. Thomas Aquinas’ “Five Proofs”), among many other things. And by looking within, we can see from our conscience and general human experience that the “right order” of things is for us to do “right” rather than “wrong”. We don’t control our conscience, it influences us rather. And the purpose of the conscience is not explainable only by the theory that we developed these instincts for survival, because much of the moral law in our hearts has nothing to do with primitive survival (don’t commit adultery, treat friends with respect out of love, don’t make fun of disabled persons, etc.). Also, the beauty of the soul is a clear reflection of the divine imprint we bear from our Creator. Art, poetry, romance, and appreciation for a pristine sunset have nothing to do with animal nature or survival instinct. Where are these things from? They are not “utilitarian”, they are not made for some kind of practical material purpose… They are from God, and the fingerprints of His design. Why do we laugh and cry? Because we have beautiful, individual souls begotten of God - there would be no reason for us to evolve such functions as these.

b. “So it is not posible that God wants us to exercise our reason and our moral agency without Him?”

That would be close to Deism, the same worldview of many of our founding fathers here in America. It is the belief that God created the universe and then “let it be”, as if He wound it up like a watch and then let go so it would run all on its own. This is a logical fallacy because the same God who created the universe from the outside must remain actively involved in maintaining it. If God ever “let the world go” then we would simply cease to exist; every moment of every day can only happen because God still actively wills it, and if He ever stopped, time, space, all of it would simply cease to be. We rely on God for our very existence, since He is true being and the source of our being. The effect direcly relies on its cause, and God is not a Cause that is “used up” or that ever ceases to exist. Thus, how much more so do we rely on Him for daily providence and help in living “rightly”? God would not create us to do everything without Him, because that would be pointless. Why? Not simply to watch us (which is all He could do in that case), because a complete God has no need of entertainment.

Also, how would we know that our moral agency is worth anything without God? He is the Ultimate Good, and we judge everything else in relation to Him. Without God we would not know whether anything else was “good” or “bad”, or “right” or “wrong”, or what. We would not have objective law without a Lawgiver.

c. “It might be that God wants us to create ideas about Him to relate to; but He certainly hasn’t told us precisely anything about Himself (since human language cannot speak really about the Divine: we can only speak of God negatively or analogically). Of course if you want to play the revelation card; you have to also justify that your claimed revelation of religious tradition is true - which I’m not even sure is possible.”

True, we cannot do God justice with words or mental concepts, which is exactly why divine revelation is necessary to know anything about Him. I can say with certainty that God doesn’t want us to “create” ideas about Him, for then how would we know if those concepts were accurate? The only way for somebody to truly know me is for me to introduce myself, or for them to find out information about me from some viable source (a close friend or something I wrote down about myself or something else in the world I influenced, for example). This is why God gave us Divine Revelation through the Prophets, the Law, and above all, Christ - His most personal introduction of Himself.

I also say that it’s very possible to bring someone to a definitive conclusion about the Christian God just through the overwhelming evidence He gives us. This is related to the content of the Revelation itself. The uniqueness of Christ, God’s unity (by philosophical logic), the probability of the fulfillment of so many prophecies, and simply the moral goodness of the Faith are just a few out of very, very many indicators that our Revelation is real and True. After all, if God sought to show us Himself, we should assume that He would do it well and with impact - the type of impact created by a Man rising from the dead and establishing the world’s longest-lasting and most fruitful religious institution.

Just a little food for thought. Hope this helps!

Peace, and have a blessed Easter Sunday… Alleluia, Alleluia, He is risen!!
 
I would agree that it is difficult to learn about God from traditions alone. But, I also believe that if you are serious about your questions, whatever they are, God can answer them. Personal revelation is the only certain knowledge.

There are many popular ideas among followers of traditions which are probably false…
 
…I also believe that if you are serious about your questions, whatever they are, God can answer them…
Geometer,

Amen. The popular Christian musician “Tobymac” said something to the effect of, “I believe if you seek the Truth, you don’t need to look far 'cause it’s gonna find you.” I absolutely agree, as we know from Christ, that he who seeks shall find.
Personal revelation is the only certain knowledge.
However, I do have one question: If two people both claim to have private revelations which turn out to be contradictory, how is it determined which is true? And if one of them is actually right, how would a third party know so if he is not allowed to learn from him but must seek a personal experience of his own?
 
It seems that God, if He exists, and if He cares at all about humans, has made us rational creatures capable or at least some moral agency. Yet He has not made Himself or His nature clear to us. In fact, if He exists, He has created the world in such a way that He is not obvious in any real sense of the word.
Read Wisdom 13. Verses 1-9.

And Romans 1:19-22.

Happy Easter!
 
However, I do have one question: If two people both claim to have private revelations which turn out to be contradictory, how is it determined which is true? And if one of them is actually right, how would a third party know so if he is not allowed to learn from him but must seek a personal experience of his own?
Well, I do not believe it is a good idea to go shopping for personal revelations. If you really need to know something, you really should ask god for an answer. If it is prophetic knowledge, then in time you will see it become reality.

I am very doubtful that god is critical of what we know about the past. Our knowldge of the past seems very important to us but the events of the past are beyond our responsibilities…
 
Well, I do not believe it is a good idea to go shopping for personal revelations. If you really need to know something, you really should ask god for an answer. If it is prophetic knowledge, then in time you will see it become reality.
What you’re describing here is the definition of a personal revelation.
I am very doubtful that god is critical of what we know about the past. Our knowldge of the past seems very important to us but the events of the past are beyond our responsibilities…
I’m not quite sure I understand what you’re trying to say here.

…I’m still curious about your answer to that question I asked.
 
I’m not quite sure I understand what you’re trying to say here.

…I’m still curious about your answer to that question I asked.
Well, I have noticed that when there is a question about God, people often begin long arguments about creation of the universe. But our responsibility to know God is not based on such knowledge. We are to find God in our present circumstances.

There are doctrines about past events, which people argue that they must be believed or you will be sent to hell. I think that reasoning is pure nonsense.
 
Well, I have noticed that when there is a question about God, people often begin long arguments about creation of the universe. But our responsibility to know God is not based on such knowledge. We are to find God in our present circumstances.

There are doctrines about past events, which people argue that they must be believed or you will be sent to hell. I think that reasoning is pure nonsense.
a. Although something that happened in the past is indeed part of the past, all of history is still relevant to the present. For example, if we exist, it depends on the fact that we came into existence at some time in the past.

b. If we have to find God “in our present circumstances”, this leads to a perpetual finding of God that can never be truly accomplished. For if I believe that I have found God, one millisecond later that will be part of the past. So then I will have to find Him again in the exact “present”, and on and on ad infinitum.

c. Ideas about what happened in the past are either true or untrue, depending on whether they really happened or not. The more we know about what God has done, the more truth we know about God. And if we believe something about what God has done in the past that He in fact did not, we do Him an injustice.

Past, present, and future all exist and are relevant to each other. It seems contrary to common sense to exclude any of them.
 
b. If we have to find God “in our present circumstances”, this leads to a perpetual finding of God that can never be truly accomplished. For if I believe that I have found God, one millisecond later that will be part of the past. So then I will have to find Him again in the exact “present”, and on and on ad infinitum.

Past, present, and future all exist and are relevant to each other. It seems contrary to common sense to exclude any of them.
We do not have certain knowledge of events which occurred before our own time. It would not be reasonable to be judged on your oppinions of events which you did not witness.
 
Interesting that you would give “the God question” a twist when you state you are Roman Catholic, especially in that you soon thereafter say “…if He exists,…etc.”

My first response would be to examine the presumption, as popular and as traditionally engrained as it is, even in the form of our English language, that God is a “person” in *any * ordinary sense or meaning of the word. Many systems, through they attribute Consciousness to the Divine, would dismiss the idea of personality being attrbutable to any eternal God, as the two are mutually contradictory, though they might attribute it to a “next to God” that acts in or as the cosmos. One of the most improbable scenarios is the “God and His trian set” theory of relationship, though I cannot in any way doubt that God is only and completely Omnipotent Love.

So I would consider first establishing whether you are willing to admit of any but a God made in the image and likeness of Man. If yes, then your question is answered by the impersonal Nature of God, and therefore the inability of God’s Love to entertain Creation in a subject-object framework, which is the usual and unfortunate stance of christianists. That stance is, though, a natural outcome of how we ordinarily view our world in an exceptionally limited way.

On the other hand, neither Deism nor christianism, Judaism, Mohamadanism, etc., will ever provide a satisfactory answer, as those yet rely on logic, arguement, faith, and again unfortunately, emotion and tradition, all howerver well and sincerely intended.

It might be useful and fun for you to find a verion of Korzybski’s “structural differential” and play with it a bit, asking questions about how it is we abstract infomation from a given field, including religious. Even if you remain entrenched in your current avowed belief system, you will learn something valuable about how perception works. One version of that tool is available in a popular book on religious sanity.

As for “the revelation card,” a very interesting contemporary book on one man’s experience can be found in *Pathways Through to Space *by Franklin Merrell-Wolff, or Byron Katie describes hers in A Thousand Names for Joy and the prefaratory material of her other books.
 
Of course God wants us to believe in Him. God is Truth. It is God’s nature, as Truth, to want us to have Truth rather than falsehood. To believe in God is to have Truth.
God has given revelations to many people. I believe some have had stronger, more detailed truth revealed to them, others only a few vague glimpses, others a middling amount of revelation. Revelation can be tested by the prophet-test outlined in the old Testament. This fits a scientific model of reality. If someone says, “No one will ever walk on the moon,” and then someone walks on the moon, the prophecy was false. If it was delivered as prophecy, then the prophet is a false prophet and his/her description of God has flaws. If someone says, “The world will not end on Y2K but will go on to see other disasters far more destructive in the next several years,” this is no guarantee that his/her view of God is correct, but doesn’t prove it false either.
The problem with Biblical interpretation is that the writings are from a time so unlike ours that we don’t know what every phrase means. The most confusing example is that ancient near Eastern people understood time differently. They were also collectivist compared to modern westerners. Also, ancient prophecies of modern times will use words that meant something to their first hearers, which are just approximations of what they describe. Despite these problems, the Biblical prophets did an excellent job of predicting outcomes and decribing what they hadn’t physically observed, much more accurately than the Mayan or Hopi prophets for example.
 
So it is not posible that God wants us to exercise our reason and our moral agency without Him? Afterall, even if God does exist - we’re stuck here on earth and should do our duty here.
The question is related to ‘why does God “hide” Himself?’ and I think the answer is really that we hide from Him. So as Augustine said, **I found thee not, O Lord, without, because I erred in seeking thee without that which was within. **

And hiding from Him is the preferred way-it’s the rejection of Gods authority, still operative in man-as a result of the fall. And overcoming this and turning fully back to a trust in and love for Him is the process of conversion/justification.

But God allowed this rebellion to take place and the working out of it is demonstrated in the parable of the vineyard owner where the owner leaves for a trip, leaving the servants free to run the vineyard as they see fit. The fact that the Owner left, eventually sending His Son after first sending various prophets, demonstrates the way God reveals Himself to the world to draw man and work out his salvation while keeping His distance in order for man to retain the freedom he opted for.

Being separated from or exiled from God in this world gives man what he wants-the free reign of his own will-and serves to test us as to how we’ll use or abuse that will-or IOW how good we’ll be at playing God ourselves.-and whether or not we’ll turn back to Him in faith and love. God, knowing mans’ need for Him, apparently deems justice and righteousness to be served when man’s believes in Him.

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Heb 11:6
 
So I would consider first establishing whether you are willing to admit of any but a God made in the image and likeness of Man. If yes, then your question is answered by the impersonal Nature of God, and therefore the inability of God’s Love to entertain Creation in a subject-object framework, which is the usual and unfortunate stance of christianists. That stance is, though, a natural outcome of how we ordinarily view our world in an exceptionally limited way.
**But the more I consider it, the less sophisticated the notion of an impersonal god seems to me- and the more inferior to a personal one-inferior to us even-more of an obscure and intelligent machine in a semi-conscious state than a god.
**
 
fhansen,

You are someone on here whose sincerity and passion for good I admire, despite my disagreement with some of the things you profess. For my part, I put far greater stock in goodness, than I do in religious affiliation, or non affiliation.

My experience is this: that your quotation from St Thomas “I found thee not, O Lord, without, because I erred in seeking thee without that which was within,” is absolutely accurate. In my experience of that, I am forced to disagree with your statement that “But the more I consider it, the less sophisticated the notion of an impersonal god seems to me- and the more inferior to a personal one-inferior to us even-more of an obscure and intelligent machine in a semi-conscious state than a god.” It was the very inability of the Church to deal with my experience and exploration of that needful dimension refered to by St Thomas that drove me after long effort from the Church. It is also what led me to experiences that completly contradict your considerations, as considerations are distinct from experience. At least “consider” means “with the stars,” so you appear to be open to cosmicly inclusive ideas, as ought we all.

While I completely agree with you that the Cathoilc Church may very well be for some an extraordinarily efficacious vehicle for discovery, having myself used it thus and well for many years, there is a particular avenue of adventurous knowledge that the Church appears to completely decline to address. I maintain that that is, IMHO, what St Thomas himself experienced when he stopped writting, saying that it was all “as straw.” Now I don’t *know *that, it being for me a point of belief. But what I do read and consider about the circumstances lead me in that direction, as do the re-discovered possibilities in the Identity statements made by Jesus and others in the Bible. It also makes the thread question, for me, a semantic impossibility

It is not a point of argument for me, as I am simply sharing my experience. But it might be useful to know that there is another, and very coherent and practical explanation for things that yet includes the Bible and other scriptures. This not only doesn’t, in my experience, reduce the Glory of God, or of the Sonship of Jesus, but glorifies those greatly in untold dimensions, as far as I can see. This has been my unfolding experience over the last forty odd years. I can only report that my Love and amazement at the Glory of God has swelled and embellished, to the point of tears of gratitude nearly daily.

But as I say, mine is a way which is primarily esoteric, and not entirely compatible with the Church, for whatever good it has done and which I am gratetful for. Without my grounding in the disciplines learned “in” the Church, primarily critical thinking, (appearently a lost art these days for the most part,) I would not be where I am with such success as I feel.

But it is of crucial importance to remember that in cases such as mine, the insight came first, and then the intellecton about it second, that reasoning needing yet to fit the facts from every angle of examination. that is not the ordianry order of proceedure, particulary with “cradle” religionists of any stripe. so I hope that believers understand that I am distinctly not speaking in a contrary way to Catholicism, as I am not to any faith. I am speaking of a method and manner of exploration and knowledge other than faith, one that is based on experience. Such is not as uncommon as some seem to feel, and are reactive to. That is as immature as vilifying someone for taking one course of study in university as distinct from another. We are all still in university, eh?

Blessings on you and yours,

Bindar Doondat
 
If God does not exist, why is it that the whole world seems to be running toward Him or away from Him? Even the agnostics sit on a fence because they’re not sure. Scripture tells us God made us in His image and likeness. That means that if we look deeply enough into ourselves, we will find Him.

Off with the blinders!
 
*"God made us in His image and likeness. That means that if we look deeply enough into ourselves, we will find Him.

Off with the blinders! "*

I totally agree!!!

I would modify what went before your statement of great value and worth only in this respect: What to many, as the different claimants to the one true religion–Abrahamic or otherwise–appears as “running from” is in fact a sincere act of conscientiously running to.

As one signature on here has quoted the unfortunate Lenny Bruce, “People are leaving churches every day to find God.” There is a large grain of truth in that that needs to be addressed beyond an adamantine insitance that “MINE!!! Mine is the right one!” Saying “Yes, but it is,” is a puerile exercise best kept to oneself, regardless which of the one true faiths one belongs to, while a more significant and useful exercise in ecumenism or whatever is discovered. In the mean time, yes, absolutely, look within with all diligence and effort!
 
fhansen,

We are all still in university, eh?
Bindar Doondat
Yes, an awesome school it is!

Regarding his references to faith or the spiritual realm Augustine put it this way: **The words printed here are concepts. You must go through the experiences. **

My belief is always that the more we know God-at least insofar as we can- the better, and we gain nothing if He remains distant or vague. And while the Church can’t give us an experience of the nature of God-an experience *of *God- I believe she points us to Him, sometimes doing a good job and sometimes perhaps not so good, and that St Thomas simply, incredibly, experienced Him. Of course the experience is-and must needs be -so much different from and greater than the words used to express Him but not because the words are necessarily wrong so much as inadequate –and we need them as a framework to guide us in believing and seeking. But in the end they must prove themselves to be valid.

One problem might be in us not really trusting that God does have more in store than we can imagine-and our not seeking earnestly enough- but then again maybe these experiences simply aren’t open to everyone now- I don’t know. While we can’t know exactly what happened with St Thomas, I, too, have been granted such an experience and it was nothing I could’ve imagined or manufactured-if I could I’d do it now. In any case it didn’t contradict Catholic teaching-and it certainly confirmed those teachings about Gods’ existing, Gods’ being separate from and superior to us, and most of all of His being Love. This experience of Gods’ unconditional love leaves a desire for something which we’ve been shown to be absolutely capable of satisfying every thirst we have-of fulfilling anything we sense is missing-eternally. God moves in and resides in us in some capacity but He’s still distinct from and above us.

I tend to think in rather broad terms and like to push the limits on these matters but I don’t believe that Catholic teachings limit me- they’re always there to weigh in during my considerations and comparisons with various beliefs- and then I see how it all plays out. I left the Church early in life but, after reconsidering her again much later on, decided she’d learned a lot while I was gone, FWIW.
 
Yes, I like the prodigal sone story as well. And essentially I agree with everything you have said in this last post. I really feel that the kind of experience you had is completely crucial to a genuine and meaningful religious practice. But I think most people rely primarily on rote faith, and I have my doubts about the ultimate usefullness of that by itself. That does not mean that it is fruitless or incidental in any way.

As for the subtleties of difference we have at this point, I am not invested in debating them, as you well know–I gather from your story–that those are beyond words. There may as well have been some circumstantial and temperamental differences as as infliences. I am completely convinced of your sincerity and adherence to your conscience and best judgement, and that is what I feel is important here. I have nothing but complete respect for that.

Blessings on you and yours,

Bindar Doondat
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top