Does God ever require us to sin?

[Jan_McArthur]

It seems that if killing a baby for what her ancestors did is always a sin, then God does at times require us to sin. Consider 1 Samuel 15:1-3 RSV Catholic Edition

And Samuel said to Saul, "The Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore hearken to the words of the Lord, Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way, when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.’ "

 

[LilyM]

It seems that if killing a baby for what her ancestors did is always a sin, then God does at times require us to sin. Consider 1 Samuel 15:1-3 RSV Catholic Edition

And Samuel said to Saul, "The Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore hearken to the words of the Lord, Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way, when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.’ "

By its very definition nothing God commands us could possibly be sin. Sin is nothing else but going against God’s will and his commands.

If the Lord, through Samuel, commanded the decimation of the people of Amalek then by definition to do so was the very opposite of sin.

 

[Jan_McArthur]

One of the problems with 1 Samuel 15:1-3 is Ezekiel 18:20 RSV Catholic Edition:

"The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

In 1 Samuel 15:1-3 we have God commanding that the son suffer for for the iniquity of the father. Why would God contradict Himself?

Also in Exodus 20:13

“You shall not kill.”

Would it not be contradictory for God to say “You shall not kill.” in Exodus 20:13 and then order the killing of innocent babies in 1 Samuel 15:1-3? If Exodus 20:13 really refers to murder, it would hard to argue that the killing of babies is not murder.

 

[tptram]

who said the innocent babies will not go straight to Abraham’s bosom?
The infants are pure. Why leave them on this earth and have their parents poison them?

God is mercy. The infants’ souls are better off.

if God decided that it is time for their souls to leave this earth, who are we to say it is a sin?

Tak

 

[Amaris]

I thought mercy killing was a sin But it’s ok when God commands it, I guess? By this logic it’s ok to “mercy kill” the children of homosexuals/muslims/witches/etc to spare them their parent’s poison, because they’ll be better off?

 

[tomch]

This may sound really bizarre, but I’ll share it anyway - for “shock value” if nothing else!!

I’m a new Catholic, but I also enjoy listening to a Protestant preacher named Chuck Missler (not sure which denomination). Anyway, Missler’s viewpoint on the “kill every man, woman, child, etc” situation is this…

In Genesis 6, it talks about the ‘Nephilim’ which he interpreted to be offspring produced by sexual relations between fallen angels (angels are called “sons of God” in the Bible) and earthly women. The Nephilim were giants due to this unusual “breeding.” They were also prone to gross evil due to their fallen status.

He cites that “Noah was perfect in his generations” (Gen. 6:9) which he feels means that Noah’s ancestors did not “mingle” with fallen angels, and thus, the bloodline was pure. Noah was also a righteous man. God wanted to preserve this line. The flood came, and the Nephilim were destroyed… for now.

Later, if you recall, the Israelites were told to totally wipe out the Canaanites (who were giants… a possible resurgence of the “Nephilim” situation after the flood?) and Missler feels that God was working to restore the human race bloodlines from another “fallen angel” contamination. The Israelites failed to wipe out the Canaanites (made a pact with the Amalekites, I think… who fooled the Israelites into thinking they were a distant nation). Later, they had problems in David’s day with Goliath (who Missler feels was a descendant of the Canaanite Nephilim).

See… I told you it was pretty unusual, but it makes sense that God would command some of the harsh things in the Old Testament if this were truly the situation.

Does anyone know what the Catholic stance on the Nephilim is? Missler’s views are kinda “Art Bell-fringe-Protestant” (which is probably why I enjoy him so much!), so his views may also be way out in left field as far as the Catholic faith is concerned. Just thought I’d mention it…

 

[Aramis]

The “nephilim hypothesis” is neither new, nor really all that unusual.

Mind you, it isn’t Catholic teaching, by any stretch, either…

Further, it is readily argued that the term used in the commandments is not “kill” but “murder” based upon the Torah; the interpretation in Catholic THeology, especially the doctrine of Just War, basically amounts to it being “murder” in practice.

Likewise, later issues in the OT have been cited often in explaining that it is murder, not killing.

Now, by definition, murder is the unjust and/or unreasonable killing of others. If God orders it, it’s neither unjust nor is it unreasonable, at least not to the faithful. (An issue for which secular society needs to wake up, as to many muslims, killing secularists and other infidels is ordered by God.)

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I believe that the person who ‘owns’ something, or the person who ‘created’ something, pretty much can choose what he does with what he owns, right?

The problem is, people don’t want to hold God to God’s standards. . .they want to hold Him to human standards. Right now in Western society for most cultures, we ‘believe’ that killing someone ‘innocent’ is wrong. . .(unless we happen to believe in a woman’s ‘right to choice’ ) Or unless society will tell us that someone is not ‘fit to live’ (listen to the media anytime someone is accused of child abuse, partison politics, insider trading, or ‘religion’. . .)

It’s bad enough that we hold people living in an entirely different society/time, facing dangers that we do not face (or think we don’t) to current standards simply because this is ‘what we believe now, therefore it should have been believed then.’ (Wonder what our 23rd century descendents will be condemning us for because "we believe this, therefore they should have believed it too.)

But trying to make ourselves better than God–and that is really what these questions are planned to do, even if the questioner isn’t conscious of it. . .this is the fruit of our pride in ourselves. We think we are right about everything, totally righteous, certainly better than God because of all the good we do, whereas what has He done for us. . .lately?

 

[Reepicheep]

I agree with Tantum Ergo.
God created me. God has the right to do what He likes with me.
So it’s a sin if someone murders me, but not sinful if God orders my death.
Also, God is perfectly capable of receiving the souls of any innocents among the Amalekites, and of forgiving any repentant Amalekites.

 

[tptram]

I thought mercy killing was a sin But it’s ok when God commands it, I guess? By this logic it’s ok to “mercy kill” the children of homosexuals/muslims/witches/etc to spare them their parent’s poison, because they’ll be better off?

it is a sin for any creature to “mercy kill” another which is the work/image of the Creator.
who are we, a creature, to upsurge God and say who to live and who to die?

God decides and uses the Israelite as His instrument.
You cannot play God.

Tak

 

[Aramis]

Likewise, throughout the Law in the Tora, God freqently gives permission to kill.

Exodous 22:1-2 makes note that no bloodguilt exists for killing a thief in the night

Ex 22:17-18 allows killing sorceresses/witches and perpetrators of bestiality.

Lev 24:10-23 notes Blasphemers get stoned to death
Lev 27:28-29 notes that Anyone doomed must be put to death, and may not be redeemed.

loads more…

 

[DanteAlighieri]

This may sound really bizarre, but I’ll share it anyway - for “shock value” if nothing else!!

I’m a new Catholic, but I also enjoy listening to a Protestant preacher named Chuck Missler (not sure which denomination). Anyway, Missler’s viewpoint on the “kill every man, woman, child, etc” situation is this…

In Genesis 6, it talks about the ‘Nephilim’ which he interpreted to be offspring produced by sexual relations between fallen angels (angels are called “sons of God” in the Bible) and earthly women. The Nephilim were giants due to this unusual “breeding.” They were also prone to gross evil due to their fallen status.

He cites that “Noah was perfect in his generations” (Gen. 6:9) which he feels means that Noah’s ancestors did not “mingle” with fallen angels, and thus, the bloodline was pure. Noah was also a righteous man. God wanted to preserve this line. The flood came, and the Nephilim were destroyed… for now.

Later, if you recall, the Israelites were told to totally wipe out the Canaanites (who were giants… a possible resurgence of the “Nephilim” situation after the flood?) and Missler feels that God was working to restore the human race bloodlines from another “fallen angel” contamination. The Israelites failed to wipe out the Canaanites (made a pact with the Amalekites, I think… who fooled the Israelites into thinking they were a distant nation). Later, they had problems in David’s day with Goliath (who Missler feels was a descendant of the Canaanite Nephilim).

See… I told you it was pretty unusual, but it makes sense that God would command some of the harsh things in the Old Testament if this were truly the situation.

Does anyone know what the Catholic stance on the Nephilim is? Missler’s views are kinda “Art Bell-fringe-Protestant” (which is probably why I enjoy him so much!), so his views may also be way out in left field as far as the Catholic faith is concerned. Just thought I’d mention it…

I dunno…it seems like there’s probably something more to it than mere ethnic cleansing. What that is, I haven’t a clue.

Peace,
Dante

 

[Jan_McArthur]

I agree with Tantum Ergo.
God created me. God has the right to do what He likes with me.
So it’s a sin if someone murders me, but not sinful if God orders my death.
Also, God is perfectly capable of receiving the souls of any innocents among the Amalekites, and of forgiving any repentant Amalekites.

My dear Reepicheep,

I agree with you in so far as God has the right to do what He likes with his creation; even to the extent of taking a person’s life as, for example, in the case of Ananias and Sapphira in the book of Acts. But notice, that it was God who carried out the executions. Likewise, it was God who killed all people, save eight souls, in Noah’s flood. It was God who killed the people of Sodam.

There is a very good reason why God prefers to reserve for Himself the killing of human life – particularly innocent life. God wants to save us from the harmful effects of this killing if we did it.

Can you imagine, Reepicheep, how it would effect you if you thrust your sword into the belly of a pregnant woman who was begging for mercy for her life and the life of her baby. You hear her horrible screams and watch as she writhes in agony in her death throws. You remember her last words as she dies, “My baby, my baby, my baby, my…”.

I once knew a man who in his youth had job as an armed night watchman. One night he shot and killed and intruder. This killing was determined to be justified, but it had an effect this night watchman. To his dying day he suffered from severe depression and many physical malidies. As I remember him, he was just a shell of a man who never had a joyful moment. But the intruder was not innocent like the babies killed by Saul and his men. And the intruder was not killed for something his ancestors did hundreds of years earlier. Think about how much worse it would be if this intruder were as innocent as the babies.

Perhaps this is one reason why God commands “You shall not kill.” in Exodus 20:13. Perhaps this is why God commands "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written ‘Vengence is mine, I will repay, says the Lord’ ". Romans 12:19-20. These are commands of God. If you violate them, you sin.

So the question remains: Does God ever require us to sin? In particular, did He require the men of Saul to sin by killing innocent babies for the transgressions of their ancestors hundreds of years earlier?

Your servant,
Jan McArthur

 

[Des]

I believe this question has already been answered in that Sin is the willful disobedience of God. Killing without God’s consent is sin. With His consent is not sin. Murder is taking the life of an innocent life, against God’s will. God for the most part, Wills us all to have life from the moment of conception. If and when He doesn’t, is entirely up to him and not us. If we take it upon ourselves to kill without God’s approval, then we sin.

You and I have no clue if these babies would have grown to be the most wicked men and woman, loosing their souls to Eternal flames and perhaps He snatched them up before this came to pass.

We have no idea what it is like for God to talk to us and speak to us. How powerful that alone is. How important when the Creater of everything just gave us a personal command. I’m pretty sure I’d be numb with AWE. We don’t know how many Graces are given to those who carry out these commands. Graces that assist them in overcoming this personal tourment you speak of.

God’s logic is beyond our comprehension since we do not know everything as He does. Our sometimes slow progression of His logic and understanding till then only makes it appear for God to be illogical and contradictive to His own laws.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Jan, again, what we ‘know’ is limited by our human intelligence. God’s knowledge is infinite.

Now either God is all good, always, or He is not.

If God is not all good, then we have no ‘standard’ for good ourselves.

If God is all good, then His goodness exists even if our ‘perception’ of His deeds, words etc. is that, by our ‘knowledge’, is that they are ‘not’ good.

If you believe that God is all good, then you believe that what He says and teaches will, somehow, be ‘all good’, even if from your human, limited, time bound perspective it appears ‘problematic’.

If you don’t believe He is all good, then as I said, you will ‘sway’ back and forth trying to decide what He ‘meant’, whether He ‘exists’, what He ‘wants’ . . .and you will never find satisfaction or answers because you’ve kind of written Him ‘out of the equation’ by holding Him to purely human standards of good.

Anecdotally speaking, too, we have many letters from historican personages who found that they ‘had’ to kill an enemy, justifiably so, to protect themselves or others, or in war. . .and they, while sorrowing for the need, did not become ‘shells’. Every person is an individual and every person makes a choice as to how to ‘handle’ a situation. Nobody is forced, in the end, to accept the feelings of another person, or even to accept their ‘own’ feelings as they may freely ‘choose’ to put their ‘feelings’ aside or to foster ‘other’ feelings. Sad though it may be for those who ‘feel’ they cannot do so, hard though it may be, it is still possible (else we have no free will in any matter of human emotion and no person can ever ‘change’).

 

[Jan_McArthur]

Hello Tantum Ergo,

The example of Saul and his men being required to kill babies is not so easily justified. It was not a case of being required to take a town but in doing so some babies were unfortunately killed. They were required to kill all the babies.

How can you possibly justify the killing of babies where these babies are specifically targeted for death? Doesn’t it bother you that the reason given for this slaughter was what their ancestors had done centuries before? Doesn’t it bother you that God specifically condemns such unjust suffering in Ezekiel chapter 18?

Your servant,
Jan

 

[LilyM]

In a passive sense God ‘orders’ all our deaths - he’s the one who ordained that we have a finite lifespan.

He created the drivers who run us over, the doctors who bungle in hospitals, the psychotics who go on shooting sprees in schools and shopping centres, the cancers and other diseases which are epidemic in our societies, the tsunamis which wipe out near a quarter of a million people in one fell swoop …

Very simply he created us all to serve his own purposes, even if we don’t completely understand them. His universe, his rules, not ours. He flooded the earth and sent fire down on Sodom and Gomorrah because he was offended at the sins of humankind. You think they were any less sinful in the land of Canaan? It’s just his way of doing things was a little different, he used the Israelites as his chosen instrument.

 

[Jan_McArthur]

I believe this question has already been answered in that Sin is the willful disobedience of God. Killing without God’s consent is sin. With His consent is not sin. Murder is taking the life of an innocent life, against God’s will. God for the most part, Wills us all to have life from the moment of conception. If and when He doesn’t, is entirely up to him and not us. If we take it upon ourselves to kill without God’s approval, then we sin.

You and I have no clue if these babies would have grown to be the most wicked men and woman, loosing their souls to Eternal flames and perhaps He snatched them up before this came to pass.

We have no idea what it is like for God to talk to us and speak to us. How powerful that alone is. How important when the Creater of everything just gave us a personal command. I’m pretty sure I’d be numb with AWE. We don’t know how many Graces are given to those who carry out these commands. Graces that assist them in overcoming this personal tourment you speak of.

God’s logic is beyond our comprehension since we do not know everything as He does. Our sometimes slow progression of His logic and understanding till then only makes it appear for God to be illogical and contradictive to His own laws.

Hello Des,

You seem to be making a “The ends justify the means argument.” The ends being that all of the babies die and go to heaven and none grow up and become so wicked that they die and go to hell. The means being simply to kill all the babies.

You could make exactly the same argument to justify abortion. I believe that you do not wish to justify abortion, so I ask you to reconsider your argument.

Also, I would like you to consider the possibility that there are some acts that are always morally evil (i.e.sinful) no matter what the culture or the age they occur in is; and I would like you to consider the possibility that the act of hunting down and killing babies is an example of such an evil act.

Your servant,
Jan

 

[Tantum_ergo]

How can you possibly justify the killing of babies where these babies are specifically targeted for death? Doesn’t it bother you that the reason given for this slaughter was what their ancestors had done centuries before? Doesn’t it bother you that God specifically condemns such unjust suffering in Ezekiel chapter 18?

I cannot ‘justify’ the killing of babies or indeed any ‘killing’ which is murder. But you aren’t really asking me to justify–you’re asking God, aren’t you?

Again, if God is all good, then somehow, beyond your human understanding (or mine, or any others) all that He does and says is good, even if it should have an appearance of evil. You might as well (I think you are) be asking why God ‘kills’ children who are stillborn, or ‘allows’ the slaughter of the innocents at Bethlehem.

If death were the ‘ultimate’ evil, or if these children would ‘never’ have died, you might have some point. But death is not in itself the ‘ultimate’ evil. Sin is the ultimate evil.

We cannot answer you as to why God said what He did. We don’t know. That’s why those who try to give an answer that makes ‘sense’ to them in human terms are just trying to understand but why you are still ‘unsatisfied.’

The only real answer is “God is love. And God is good.” If you have doubts or troubles, you must ultimately choose–do you believe God is good, or not? If you do believe, you will ‘understand’ that in this life, there are mysteries about God and His doings that you will not understand, and that this is something you have to accept, God’s goodness overall, on trust. That is faith, and it is a gift.

If you don’t believe, then all the rationalizing and all the questioning will, in the end, bring you nothing. This is one of the ‘stumbling’ blocks. . .the ‘foolishness’ of God which stands against the powerful seduction of worldly ‘wisdom’ which tells us that should only accept what we ‘understand’ and that anything beyond that is ‘unreal’.

 

[Des]

Hello Des,

You seem to be making a “The ends justify the means argument.” The ends being that all of the babies die and go to heaven and none grow up and become so wicked that they die and go to hell. The means being simply to kill all the babies.

Hi jan.

Yes, in God’s view since he is the creator of all things and can take life willingly, he can easily take the babies if He wishes to do so without a reason so long as it’s Good by his very Nature. We don’t have that right since we did not make that life and infuse the soul. There is no difference between God taking one’s mother up to Heaven through a stroke or heart attack if He so wills it or by using men as instuments to take lives of other’s for him as well. It all comes down to His Will.

You could make exactly the same argument to justify abortion. I believe that you do not wish to justify abortion, so I ask you to reconsider your argument.

Abortion is "Our" willfull act in taking the life of an innocent human being without God’s consent. They deserve life as much as you or I unless of course God wishes them to come to him now by which He has everyright to take their earthly lives at any given point in time.

Also, I would like you to consider the possibility that there are some acts that are always morally evil (i.e.sinful) no matter what the culture or the age they occur in is; and I would like you to consider the possibility that the act of hunting down and killing babies is an example of such an evil act.

You’re right. There are however taking the lives of innocents is ‘always’ an imoral evil if people and not God are the ones doing it. It’s evil because doing that is against God’s will since He the Creator did not give us permission. Again, one cannot always take God’s rules to us, and re-apply them to God Himself. It isn’t the same as taking enjoyment out of watching somebody suffer which is immoral. That is something NOT in God’s nature and impossible for Him to do.