J
Jan_McArthur
Guest
Hello Des,
Besides the question of deciding whether an act of hunting down and killing babies is good or not; and the question of whether such an act is just, there is the question of whether or not it is even possible to obey the commands relating to the killing of these babies.
Exodus 20:13 says, “You shall not kill.”
1 Samuel 15:3 says “…kill both man and woman, infant and suckling…”
If you obey the first, you disobey the second. If you obey the second, you disobey the first. In either case you disobey a command. (The good news is that in either case you obey a command.) There is nothing explicitly mentioned in the second command that exempts you from the first.
Assuming that these commands are from God, I am sure you would agree with me that it would be a sin to disobey them. But if God required Saul to obey the second command, he would also necessarily be required to disobey the first and perhaps sin in doing so. Thus even if Saul wanted to obey God with all of his heart (which as events proved, he didn’t), it would simply be impossible to do so. However, if a person who wanted to obey God with all of his heart was confronted with the same paradox, perhaps he would not be sinning if he carried out the second command because he could not give his full consent (or any consent) to disobeying the first command. He was, in a sense, forced to disobey the first command.
Another possibility is found in the actual text of 1 Samuel 15:1-3. God is not speaking directly. It says: “And Samuel said to Saul…”. I suppose one could posit that Samuel did not tell the truth – either by lying outright or by mistaking a strong personal feeling for a vision from God. This would remove the difficulty. The problem with this interpretation is that this is not the only instance in the Old Testament where God commands the killing of innocents. I would find it hard to believe that all of the prophets who conveyed similar commands were either liars or mistaken.
Yes, I know you can also remove the difficulty by interpreting “You shall not kill.” as meaning “You shall not commit murder.” and then defining murder in such a way as to make it not sinful no matter how heinous it appears when God orders it. But for some reason Bible translators seems to prefer the word “kill” to the word “murder” in translating Exodus 20:13, and when people re-define a word like “murder” it tends to make me suspicious. For example I would reject the definition: “It is murder when someone kills an unborn fetus whose mother want to carry it to term but not when the mother does not want it.” or “It is murder to kill a white man but not when the victim is not white.”
It seems to me that God has given everyone a natural sense of what is good and bad on at least a gross level (Romans 2:14,15). Even a very small child knows that stealing is wrong when he says: “He took my toy!”. For me, just the very thought of killing a baby is repulsive and contemplating any possibility of God commanding me to do so fills me with horror. I would say (like St. Peter in Acts 10:14) “No Lord”. But what I don’t understand is that I do not find any reference in the Old Testament of anyone who feels like me. If someone came to me and said: “God told me that He commands you to go next door and kill everyone – man, woman children, infants, dogs, and cats.”, I would not even for a minute consider him anything but a false prophet. Why do we not see any examples of people like me in the Old Testament? Am I the only sinner?
One last thing, Des. It is very important for me to resolve apparent contradictions in scripture if possible – and usually it is. I have written a paper attempting to prove that God created a logically consistent universe as opposed to a logically inconsistent universe. Contradictions are anathema to me. If you would be willing to criticize it, I would be most grateful. Just send me an e-mail to [Mod edit: deleted e-mail address per forum policy. Please click on user’s name and use the link on the member’s CAF profile page.] requesting a copy and I will return one to you.
Your servant,
Jan
Besides the question of deciding whether an act of hunting down and killing babies is good or not; and the question of whether such an act is just, there is the question of whether or not it is even possible to obey the commands relating to the killing of these babies.
Exodus 20:13 says, “You shall not kill.”
1 Samuel 15:3 says “…kill both man and woman, infant and suckling…”
If you obey the first, you disobey the second. If you obey the second, you disobey the first. In either case you disobey a command. (The good news is that in either case you obey a command.) There is nothing explicitly mentioned in the second command that exempts you from the first.
Assuming that these commands are from God, I am sure you would agree with me that it would be a sin to disobey them. But if God required Saul to obey the second command, he would also necessarily be required to disobey the first and perhaps sin in doing so. Thus even if Saul wanted to obey God with all of his heart (which as events proved, he didn’t), it would simply be impossible to do so. However, if a person who wanted to obey God with all of his heart was confronted with the same paradox, perhaps he would not be sinning if he carried out the second command because he could not give his full consent (or any consent) to disobeying the first command. He was, in a sense, forced to disobey the first command.
Another possibility is found in the actual text of 1 Samuel 15:1-3. God is not speaking directly. It says: “And Samuel said to Saul…”. I suppose one could posit that Samuel did not tell the truth – either by lying outright or by mistaking a strong personal feeling for a vision from God. This would remove the difficulty. The problem with this interpretation is that this is not the only instance in the Old Testament where God commands the killing of innocents. I would find it hard to believe that all of the prophets who conveyed similar commands were either liars or mistaken.
Yes, I know you can also remove the difficulty by interpreting “You shall not kill.” as meaning “You shall not commit murder.” and then defining murder in such a way as to make it not sinful no matter how heinous it appears when God orders it. But for some reason Bible translators seems to prefer the word “kill” to the word “murder” in translating Exodus 20:13, and when people re-define a word like “murder” it tends to make me suspicious. For example I would reject the definition: “It is murder when someone kills an unborn fetus whose mother want to carry it to term but not when the mother does not want it.” or “It is murder to kill a white man but not when the victim is not white.”
It seems to me that God has given everyone a natural sense of what is good and bad on at least a gross level (Romans 2:14,15). Even a very small child knows that stealing is wrong when he says: “He took my toy!”. For me, just the very thought of killing a baby is repulsive and contemplating any possibility of God commanding me to do so fills me with horror. I would say (like St. Peter in Acts 10:14) “No Lord”. But what I don’t understand is that I do not find any reference in the Old Testament of anyone who feels like me. If someone came to me and said: “God told me that He commands you to go next door and kill everyone – man, woman children, infants, dogs, and cats.”, I would not even for a minute consider him anything but a false prophet. Why do we not see any examples of people like me in the Old Testament? Am I the only sinner?
One last thing, Des. It is very important for me to resolve apparent contradictions in scripture if possible – and usually it is. I have written a paper attempting to prove that God created a logically consistent universe as opposed to a logically inconsistent universe. Contradictions are anathema to me. If you would be willing to criticize it, I would be most grateful. Just send me an e-mail to [Mod edit: deleted e-mail address per forum policy. Please click on user’s name and use the link on the member’s CAF profile page.] requesting a copy and I will return one to you.
Your servant,
Jan