Does God exist outside of linear time?

[JamesG]

If God exists outside of time then I guess that means that his his plan is already fullfiled. It was before the universe existed and it still will be after it is gone. This means, that he already knows who will reject him and who won’t.

Is time a requirement for us to make a choice between good and evil?

Is the entire universe as we know it structured in a way to provide us with a choice?

If so does that mean that the after life isn’t subject to time?

Does that mean that in the after life there are no more choices to make because time is non-linear?

Even when we are resurected and given eternal life will we still exist in a linear fashion?

I guess that when we die we will be united with our family right away. In fact when we die we will exist outside of time because we will be with God. For those people who died, christ will have already returned, mary will be giving birth, and christ will be dying on the cross. Everything that happened will be happening and everything that is going to happen will also be happening.

It just really changes your perspective on things when you consider that the after life might not be subject to linear time. The afterlife might be non-linear.

 

[DeFide]

If God exists outside of time then I guess that means that his his plan is already fullfiled. It was before the universe existed and it still will be after it is gone. This means, that he already knows who will reject him and who won’t.

From God’s perspective, his plan is fullfilled. He lives in the eternal Now, with no sequentialty.

Is time a requirement for us to make a choice between good and evil?

I don’t know. God may allow, say, an aborted child to choose for or against him without regard to sequentiality, but that’d just be speculation

Is the entire universe as we know it structured in a way to provide us with a choice?

It seems so. God gives us enough information to choose, but does not so overwhelm us as to prevent our will from being free.

If so does that mean that the after life isn’t subject to time?

It’s not clear how time will work after this life. There does appear to be some sequentiality, i.e purification.

Does that mean that in the after life there are no more choices to make because time is non-linear?

It could be that our wills will merely be confirmed to God’s will, possibly outside of time. People in heaven may be likened to trained singers would could choose to sing the wrong notes, but who no inclination to do so.

I guess that when we die we will be united with our family right away. In fact when we die we will exist outside of time because we will be with God. For those people who died, christ will have already returned, mary will be giving birth, and christ will be dying on the cross. Everything that happened will be happening and everything that is going to happen will also be happening.

Not so fast. God being outside of time and not subject to sequentiality does not imply that we share that attribute.

 

[noma]

Is time a requirement for us to make a choice between good and evil?

No.

Is the entire universe as we know it structured in a way to provide us with a choice?

No.

If so does that mean that the after life isn’t subject to time?

See above.

Does that mean that in the after life there are no more choices to make because time is non-linear?

No.

Even when we are resurected and given eternal life will we still exist in a linear fashion?

Yes.

 

[JamesG]

It seems so. God gives us enough information to choose, but does not so overwhelm us as to prevent our will from being free.

This might be true but how can a choice even exist if you are not subject to time?

 

[JamesG]

No.

No.

See above.

No.

Yes.

well this isn’t very helpfull. could you explain why?

 

[JamesG]

Not so fast. God being outside of time and not subject to sequentiality does not imply that we share that attribute.

Is there anything in the scripture that suggests that we will be or will not be subject to sequentiality ?

Also are the angles also subject to sequentiality ?

 

[JamesG]

It seems so. God gives us enough information to choose, but does not so overwhelm us as to prevent our will from being free.

How can we be free if we are subject to sequentiality ? It seems like a limiting factor in understanding the truth.

 

[heisenburg]

theory, speculation ,and conjecture, take it no further…

God and his domain is sorta like Light…

Little history in Light and relativity…

To start with, there is something known as Time Dialation

this is calculated as follows

Time(apparant) = 1/sqrt(1-(vv)/(cc))*Time(actual)

where
v = velocity you are traveling with respect to a fixed observer
c = speed of light
sqrt = square root
Time(apparant) = resultant Time Dialation
Time(Actual) = time passed by fixed observer

Now, if v = 0 meters/second , then the equation literaly becomes T(a) = 1*1

easy enough…

However, as the limit of V->C, T(a) approaches infinity. in otherwords, if a particle moves at the speed of light for one second to a fixed observer, it would actually take an undefined amount of time to do the same distance. By undefined, I mean a 1 divided by 0 (1/0) amount of time, mathamaticly, it is undefined.

Now, obviously, the light does get there, but from the percpective of the light particle it is outside of any concept of normal time, yet, it is an intergral, and important part of THIS time scale. Obviously, light does effect everything we do, but how can it if fromt the percpective of light, it is outside of time. How long would it take from the lights perspectie for the partical to get from the sun to us-Undefined… form our perspective, about 8 minutes. So, how does the light get to us then if, from the perspective of light, it takes an undefined amount of time.

If you were able to follow it…

THis is sorta how I am able to understand how god can be outside of time, yet still in it.

Who knows, the realm of heaven may actualy exist in light?

By the way, you can actually use that equation to calculate how fast God would need to be moving with repect to us for 1 day to equal 1000 years, and have 1000 years equal 1 day…

End math…

In Christ

 

[DeFide]

This might be true but how can a choice even exist if you are not subject to time?

If choice could be equated to a disposition, then one could “choose” outside of time. Even God chooses. Time is merely the measure of that which changes. If there is no change, time does not apply.

 

[JamesG]

If choice could be equated to a disposition, then one could “choose” outside of time. Even God chooses. Time is merely the measure of that which changes. If there is no change, time does not apply.

But since God never changes why would he ever have to make a choice? I guess you could argue that he did make a choice through his son.

 

[DeFide]

Is there anything in the scripture that suggests that we will be or will not be subject to sequentiality ?

Also are the angles also subject to sequentiality ?

There are numerous Scripture passages that could be used, but that depends on interpretation of them. Revelation immediately comes to mind.

John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

Now, this seems to involve some sequentiality, as those in heaven are offering up the prayers of the holy ones on earth, and the prayers of those on earth are sequential.

 

[JamesG]

By the way, you can actually use that equation to calculate how fast God would need to be moving with repect to us for 1 day to equal 1000 years, and have 1000 years equal 1 day…

This is puting limits on God. If got exists outside of time then he has no limits. Limitation only exists if you are subject to time.

There is also the hypothetical set of multiple possible universes, all of which (if true) God would have to exist outside of.

 

[heisenburg]

I guess you could argue that he did make a choice through his son

but this would mean that Christ happened AFTER the creation, and thus is a part of the creation and not the creator…

This is a herisy…

Keep in mind the saying…

In the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirt, as it was in the begining, is now and ever shall be world without end.

Christ Always was, even before the fall, and even before creation.
so for God, Christ always was, and hasn’t changed

In Christ

 

[heisenburg]

This is puting limits on God. If got exists outside of time then he has no limits. Limitation only exists if you are subject to time.

There is also the hypothetical set of multiple possible universes, all of which (if true) God would have to exist outside of.

Actually, this has nothign to do with multiple universes, but merely the reality of how light works. (by the way, the equation has been tested multiple times. Its part of Einstines General Relativity)

Anyway… i am not saying god is light, I am merely saying that there is a real world example we can use to help understand how something can be outside of time, yet in it. It puts no limits on god.

In Christ

 

[DeFide]

But since God never changes why would he ever have to make a choice? I guess you could argue that he did make a choice through his son.

Again, if you consider “choice” to be God’s disposition, then God chooses, but not in the way we do, weighing separate issues with the assistance of our earthly bodies, learning and deciding. God does not have to learn because all truth is fully present to him… indeed God is truth.

 

[tm30]

Is time a requirement for us to make a choice between good and evil?

Yes. Time is a measure of movement. If you’re not moving, you’re not acting. Even if you’re sitting still and the earth is turning, you’re still moving. If there is no time, there is no movement, and thus no choice to be made. This is why the demons are condemned forever to hell. They cannot change their choice. They cannot change their disposition. They are outside time. The tricky question is, “how did they make that choice to reject God if there is no time or movement in eternity?” I don’t think there’s a solidly accepted answer for that, but it’s possible they rejected God at the first (and only) instant of their creation.

Is the entire universe as we know it structured in a way to provide us with a choice?

Yes, absolutely. Movement provides us the opportunity to make choices, to use our free will. There would be no point in God creating something of Himself but distinct from Himself and at the same time moving all the pieces around the board by Himself to a preferred end. What’s the point?

If so does that mean that the after life isn’t subject to time?

Correct. The afterlife is eternal.

Does that mean that in the after life there are no more choices to make because time is non-linear?

There will not be free will in the afterlife. There will be no need for free will as we know it because the entirety of our will is going to be united to God’s, like Adam and Eve’s – only the serpent will be destroyed and no longer able to tempt us away. We will have an eternal vision of God without sway.

Even when we are resurected and given eternal life will we still exist in a linear fashion?

Hard to say. My previous answers would indicate not. By creating a new heaven and a new earth, I read that as something that throws out all the laws of physics and time as we know them. Perhaps there will be a way to have linearity outside of time (nothing is impossible with God), but no one knows. As the Bible has been given to man to instruct him, we might simply be being given a pedestrian guidepost to a Divine action we can’t possibly grasp. Short answer: I don’t know.

What’s on the other side is moot unless we get there. Understandably, God did not offer much in way of detail because the most important part of understanding eternity is to be holy enough to get there in the first place.

 

[JamesG]

but this would mean that Christ happened AFTER the creation, and thus is a part of the creation and not the creator…

This is a herisy…

Keep in mind the saying…

In the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirt, as it was in the begining, is now and ever shall be world without end.

Christ Always was, even before the fall, and even before creation.
so for God, Christ always was, and hasn’t changed

In Christ

Actually, this isn’t herisy beacuse we know that the Word existed before creation. The word became flesh after creation. Christ himself had to make a choice when he was tempted by satan. If he wasn’t part of this world he would never have had to make that choice.

 

[heisenburg]

But now you are seperating the divine nature from the human nature. Christ is and always was both.

Saying he was initially (and/or stil is) only the divine nature is the Arian heresy. You cannot seperate the two

Also, this would mean that Christ wasnt “complete” until he was given his human nature, and thus, this would go against the truth that Christ is and always was perfect

In Christ

 

[tm30]

Just a follow up to my previous post:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more.

See what happens here: The Church has long held theologically that the Resurrection - the New Jerusalem - is the so-called “eighth day” of Creation. Now, if we take the above verse and compare it to Genesis 1, what do we find?

Day One - God created the heaven and the earth
Day Two - God created the sea.
Day Three - God created terra firma
Day Four - God creates time
and so on…

Now look at Revelation 21:1

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more.

If the New creation is the eighth day - the re-creation, if you will - what happens? God makes heaven and earth (Day 8/Day 1 in Genesis), but “the sea is no more”(!) God does not progress from the 8th day (or the “new” first day) to a “9th day”. he doesn’t re-make the sea or terra firma or… time. Why not? Because. The 8th day is eternal. It never ends…

 

[JamesG]

Hard to say. My previous answers would indicate not. By creating a new heaven and a new earth, I read that as something that throws out all the laws of physics and time as we know them. Perhaps there will be a way to have linearity outside of time (nothing is impossible with God), but no one knows. As the Bible has been given to man to instruct him, we might simply be being given a pedestrian guidepost to a Divine action we can’t possibly grasp. Short answer: I don’t know.

I agree with what you wrote, but this part here makes me think that this universe was some how corrupted or created so that we can choose between good and evil. If you think about it. Every creature in this universe has a choice (perhaps not an intelligent choice) but one that is a reaction based on time and sequential events. Alos, in order for moral and natural evil to exist God must be hidden from this universe.