Does God exist outside of linear time?

[JamesG]

But now you are seperating the divine nature from the human nature. Christ is and always was both.

Saying he was initially (and/or stil is) only the divine nature is the Arian heresy (i believe). You cannot seperate the two

Also, this would mean that Christ wasnt “complete” until he was given his human nature, and thus, this would go against the truth that Christ is and always was perfect

In Christ

No this isn’t what I’m saying. You see the Word always existed and is existing. And if God is not subject to time then he is and always was complete. Furthermore, Christ still had to be subject to time because he had to be born and he had to suffer. If God did not become flesh then he would never of suffered.

 

[tm30]

By the way, you can actually use that equation to calculate how fast God would need to be moving with repect to us for 1 day to equal 1000 years, and have 1000 years equal 1 day…

That’s a calculation that can’t be made. God doesn’t move. He’s eternal. He contains the entire universe. If you’re saying God can move, you’re saying that God is finite. Impossible. He IS existence (“I AM”).

 

[tm30]

I agree with what you wrote, but this part here makes me think that this universe was some how corrupted or created so that we can choose between good and evil. If you think about it. Every creature in this universe has a choice (perhaps not an intelligent choice) but one that is a reaction based on time and sequential events. .

If it were corrupted, that would imply that God purposely made the world evil. He made the world capable of evil but not by origiin. Time in and of itself is not corruption. It’s the vehicle by which we choose to serve or not serve God. Once our time ends here (death) it’s too late to choose to serve God if we haven’t. Time is an amazing display of God’s mercy, when you think about it. Whereas the angels were confined by their singular fall in aeverternity, we have up until the moment of our death the ability repent and receive salvation from this linear existence. it gives us the ability to accept God of our own free will, or return to God before it’s too late, using that same free will.

 

[tm30]

Furthermore, Christ still had to be subject to time because he had to be born and he had to suffer.

The Word (who is Christ) existed before time. He took the flesh (the Incarnation) in our linear time. He was definitely subjected to time here. (How many times did he speak even symbolically of “My hour”?)

 

[JamesG]

one other point is that there is a big difference between non-linear existence (which is eternal by definition) and eternal existance while subject to infinite time.

The question is what is the nature of existance in the afterlife?

 

[heisenburg]

If God did not become flesh then he would never of suffered.

Which means you are saying god choice to create the human nature

Thats the Arian Heresy. Christ had to ALWAYS have both natures. he didnt choose this nature, he already was… Otherwise, the human nature needed to be created, and thus you are saying that the divine + human nature Christ had to be created because before it was only Divine. This also means that the ESSENTIAL nature of God had to change and this is impossible.

I reiterate… Christ always had both natures, he didnt need to choose to give himself the human nature.

Furthure more, by saying he was first only Divine, and then chose the Human nature also starts giving you other more dangerous theological problems. One Example is what that means for the Trinity. If Christ as we know it did not exist until his birth to Mary, then the Trinity is No longer valid as the Trinity would be NEW and modified version of God… Again, impossible…

Accpeting that Christ was first only Divine, and Then devine + human, means you msut reject the Trinity

 

[heisenburg]

That’s a calculation that can’t be made. God doesn’t move. He’s eternal. He contains the entire universe. If you’re saying God can move, you’re saying that God is finite. Impossible. He IS existence (“I AM”).

yea, I agree… its jsut a fun thing to do to see how fast you would need to go to have 1 day = 1000 years… But yea, I totaly agree…

 

[JamesG]

If it were corrupted, that would imply that God purposely made the world evil. He made the world capable of evil but not by origiin. Time in and of itself is not corruption. It’s the vehicle by which we choose to serve or not serve God. Once our time ends here (death) it’s too late to choose to serve God if we haven’t. Time is an amazing display of God’s mercy, when you think about it. Whereas the angels were confined by their singular fall in aeverternity, we have up until the moment of our death the ability repent and receive salvation from this linear existence. it gives us the ability to accept God of our own free will, or return to God before it’s too late, using that same free will.

I wouldn’t say that god made the world evil but he did allow the darkness. If he was visible to us and we felt is love then we would have a choice would we?

It is also important to realize that when the light is upon us we will either be prepared for it or we won’t. If we are not then it will be like the sun burning our souls. We won’t be able to handle it. So you are right that the grace of God allows for the darkness (evil) to exist. God gives us time to prepare for the strength of his love and his plan. Evil however is not something that was created.

 

[tm30]

Gotcha. I think I just didn’t feel like doing the math!

 

[heisenburg]

As a final comment (as I need to go)

You seem to want to imply that the verse “And the word was made flesh” is your proof that god gave himself the human nature.

This verse is merely refering to the whole prophecy being fullfilled. Christ Came to us to show us the way to salvation.

There was a prophecy, and the prophecy was made true by christs coming.

In Christ

 

[JamesG]

Which means you are saying god choice to create the human nature

Human nature is the result of Gods grace and his love. He loves us so much that he will allow us to be that way and to exist that way.

Thats the Arian Heresy. Christ had to ALWAYS have both natures. he didnt choose this nature, he already was… Otherwise, the human nature needed to be created, and thus you are saying that the divine + human nature Christ had to be created because before it was only Divine. This also means that the ESSENTIAL nature of God had to change and this is impossible.

I don’t support the arian heresy. Thats not what I’m try to say at all.

Mary had to make a choice to accept Gods son into his world. He had to be born. Nothing about God had to change for this to occur. After all we are created in the image of God. He had to experience everything that we experience and suffer along with us. In order to suffer he also had to be subject to temptation. Jesus could of chosen not to die on the cross. he could of ran away. He even said that the spirt is willing but the flesh is not.

I reiterate… Christ always had both natures, he didnt need to choose to give himself the human nature.

I never said that. .

Furthure more, by saying he was first only Divine, and then chose the Human nature also starts giving you other more dangerous theological problems. One Example is what that means for the Trinity. If Christ as we know it did not exist until his birth to Mary, then the Trinity is No longer valid as the Trinity would be NEW and modified version of God… Again, impossible…

well I don’t support that.

Accpeting that Christ was first only Divine, and Then devine + human, means you msut reject the Trinity

I never said that either.

 

[tm30]

I wouldn’t say that god made the world evil but he did allow the darkness. If he was visible to us and we felt is love then we would have a choice would we?

It is also important to realize that when the light is upon us we will either be prepared for it or we won’t. If we are not then it will be like the sun burning our souls. We won’t be able to handle it. So you are right that the grace of God allows for the darkness (evil) to exist. God gives us time to prepare for the strength of his love and his plan. Evil however is not something that was created.

Well, I guess it depends on the definition of “darkness”. Darkness is merely privation of light. In one sense, that’s an evil, since light is lacking. But if we read Genesis 1, we find that it describes more of a “void” over which the Holy Spirit swept at the creation of the seas. Referring to “the dark side” is an extension of the label of “evil”, which is the absence of goodness. Did God allow that? Not at the time we entered the world. Although Genesis is written in sequential terms, the message is pretty clear that there was no darkness in the world once man entered it.

The darkness came hither:

Revelation 12:7-9

And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels: (8) And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.(9) And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Remember, this is a battle taking place in eternity. Satan (the serpent) is cast from heaven and into the garden or Eden. Why cast them to earth? Well, perhaps seeing that His angels just defied Him, it made sense to test man next, and allowed the demons to put Adam and Eve through the paces to dertemine THEIR loyalty next. It certainly adds a note of great sadness to God’s response to Eve:

Genesis 3:13

And the Lord God said to the woman: Why hast thou done this?

The ones He made in His own image, given the chance, betrayed Him to the serpent. How sad is that?

I believe that man existed in the light much as the angels did prior to their fall. If they fell in the presence of God, why couldn’t Adam and Eve? Lucifer was tempted by his own ego. he became an instrument to test man. And man failed.

 

[tm30]

It is also important to realize that when the light is upon us we will either be prepared for it or we won’t. If we are not then it will be like the sun burning our souls. We won’t be able to handle it. So you are right that the grace of God allows for the darkness (evil) to exist. God gives us time to prepare for the strength of his love and his plan. Evil however is not something that was created.

That’s a good description. Once the jig is up, it’s up.

 

[JamesG]

That’s a good description. Once the jig is up, it’s up.

What I know is that God love is so strong and so powerfull that we as mortals are not ready for it. if you felt it even for a second you would realize how much grace God is giving us.

That is why we must focus on preparing our souls for the time when we are to be with him.

 

[JamesG]

The ones He made in His own image, given the chance, betrayed Him to the serpent. How sad is that?

I believe that man existed in the light much as the angels did prior to their fall. If they fell in the presence of God, why couldn’t Adam and Eve? Lucifer was tempted by his own ego. he became an instrument to test man. And man failed.

Well I think this is all part of Gods plan. He loved us so much that he could not force his will upon us. He even gave us a choice to have a choice between good and evil. How perfect is that?

In order to have that choice God had to become hidden from us. We had to be part of this universe. I don’t really know if this universe is the same universe that adam and eve was part of, but what we do know is that we are outside of the garden.

 

[heisenburg]

(Had a few more minutes)

IF you are simply talking about Gods arrival on earth as spoken by the prophets, however, still understand that he had the Human nature PREVIOUS to this, I am ok, and appologize for the confusion…

IF, however, you are saying that he did NOT recieve his human nature UNTIL he was born of Mary, then that most assuradly is part of the Arian heresy.

Again, If you are refering to the first, I appologize for the confusion…

I do not want to confuse the matter so I am going to ask… Do you mean that when you say that gods Human nature is a result of his grace, are you saying that his Human nature was created at some point AFTER creation?

My concern is jsut that iyou are saying that Gods Human nature is created/or a result of something. God always had both natures.

But know that if you are saying that god did not ALWAYS have both natures, you are coming EXTREMELY close to the Arian heresy and it shouldnt be seen any other way.

In Christ

PS

I Guess maybe I should have said this. Yes or No, Did god ALWAYS have both natures…

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Jesus said "I AM the Alpha and the Omega–the beginning and the end’.

He did not say I was the Alpha and I will be the Omega.

Since God is beyond time Jesus could offer His body and His blood to the apostles before he died at Calvary and since He was present before the beginning of time He can redeem Mary before His Earthly birth.

He can also offer his sacrifice on the cross thoughout all the ages at all the masses around the entore world until he comes again.

 

[JamesG]

(Had a few more minutes)

IF you are simply talking about Gods arrival on earth as spoken by the prophets, however, still understand that he had the Human nature PREVIOUS to this, I am ok, and appologize for the confusion…

IF, however, you are saying that he did NOT recieve his human nature UNTIL he was born of Mary, then that most assuradly is part of the Arian heresy.

Again, If you are refering to the first, I appologize for the confusion…

I do not want to confuse the matter so I am going to ask… Do you mean that when you say that gods Human nature is a result of his grace, are you saying that his Human nature was created at some point AFTER creation?

My concern is jsut that iyou are saying that Gods Human nature is created/or a result of something. God always had both natures.

But know that if you are saying that god did not ALWAYS have both natures, you are coming EXTREMELY close to the Arian heresy and it shouldnt be seen any other way.

In Christ

PS

I Guess maybe I should have said this. Yes or No, Did god ALWAYS have both natures…

yes
We are created in Gods image . God has never changed.

 

[Nan_S]

[Regarding sequentiality]There are numerous Scripture passages that could be used, but that depends on interpretation of them. Revelation immediately comes to mind.

John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

Now, this seems to involve some sequentiality, as those in heaven are offering up the prayers of the holy ones on earth, and the prayers of those on earth are sequential.

The events at the beginning of Revelation describe the ongoing interaction between humans existing within Linear Time, and creatures who are in heaven but still able to perceive Linear Time. It’s as if the creatures in heaven are on the boundary between time and eternity.

Here’s an example that’s going to date me:
Think of a record on a turntable, spinning at 33 RPM. The physical universe and everything in it, including us, are on the outer edge of the record, moving through space and time at a steady clip. God is in the center, forever in the same position, unmoving, but constantly looking outward in all directions. The angels and elders in Revelation are somewhere inbetween.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the events in Revelation happen when the old earth and Linear Time have not come to an end. That is why the martyrs under the altar in heaven are able to ask “how long will it be” and the Lord answers “a little while longer.”