Does God exist outside of time?

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AmbroseSJ

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I see this posted everywhere in these forums as if it is some self-evident fact: God exists outside of time. As if time has a border, and God has it all enclosed by that border. Does time exist for spirits in eternity? Wasn’t there a time when the Physical Universe was not, and then later a time when it was? Do we even KNOW what time is?
 
What is time, and how would it apply to an eternal God?

Can we also ask if God exists outside of space? Does God exist outside of space but not outside of time?
 
AmbroseSJ said:
I see this posted everywhere in these forums as if it is some self-evident fact: God exists outside of time. As if time has a border, and God has it all enclosed by that border. Does time exist for spirits in eternity? Wasn’t there a time when the Physical Universe was not, and then later a time when it was? Do we even KNOW what time is?
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God is pure spirit, eternal and infinite, he is not defined or limited by space and time. Therefore, though he is everywhere in the creation he made subject to space and time, he is present there as its creator and cause, its sustainer, and final end, he is not subject to the limitations of space and time.

So while it is not strictly correct to say God exists outside of time because there is no " outside " time, you can understand by that statement that God does not exist in space and time as creatures do.

Spirits exist in eternity because they have already endured the particular judgment. The moment we die we too will be existing in eternity.

Time was created as a property of the universe at the moment of creation ex nihil. So you can say that before that moment only God existed.

We do not know the moment of creation and will never know it with certainty.

It is better not to get caught up in " the meaning of time. " It is better just to consider it as a necessary property of the created, contingent, limited universe. St. Thomas defines it as the passage from potentiality to actuality. He accepted Aristotle’s definition of time as the measure of change, or the " before, " " present, " or " future " of existence. We experience time in the consciousness in the latter manner. Linus2nd
 
wheels spin and drums beat,
ride the cresting wave of time
movement in the now
 
Have fun studying this, about how God has to exist outside time, because time is part of the created universe, God does not exist inside what He has created (altho he can manifest Himself). I really worked up a study about this a couple decades ago. It was like climbing a mountain, and when I finally struggled over that last rock and reached the top, I found a bunch of 2nd-, 3rd-, and 4th-century Catholic theologians already there, sitting around and eating fried chicken and hush puppies.

(Okay, I made that last part up. But the timelessness of God is ancient knowledge in the Church.)
 
If God is not outside of time, then God is subject to time, and therefore God could not be the most supreme and infinite being that He is required to be in order to be God, and therefore would not be THE God.

Also, for some biblical evidence:
[BIBLEDRB]Psalm 90:4[/BIBLEDRB]

and

[BIBLEDRB]2 Peter 3:8[/BIBLEDRB]

For one to experience a day in one thousand years and a thousand years in a day, one must be able to see/experience them both simultaneously, and to do so, one must be eternal (i.e. outside of time).

As science says, it is the fabric of space-time. They are not separate, they are a part of the same creation that is the universe.
 
I just learned this in theology class. Time is a measure of change. Each second there is a change. God is perfect therefore he can’t change. So God is not of time, Hecis eternal. Always was and will be.
 
Yes, God is pure spirit, and has no extension in either space or time. He does not spread himself out in three dimensions. (He has no parts to take up space.) He is not spread out in time (he has no sequential moments of existence to be spread out in time, but possesses his entire existence as a unified totality. To him, all moments are now.

He can act in time. After all, he created it. He can act in space. He created that too. Time and space came into existence with Creation of the material world–the universe. We call that mode of existence eternal.
 
AmbroseSJ said:
I see this posted everywhere in these forums as if it is some self-evident fact: God exists outside of time. As if time has a border, and God has it all enclosed by that border. Does time exist for spirits in eternity? Wasn’t there a time when the Physical Universe was not, and then later a time when it was? Do we even KNOW what time is?
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One could argue that being outside of time is part of the very “definition” of what it means to be God. It is the de fide teaching of the Church, and explained admirably by St. Thomas.

Time is defined as the “measure of change” as some of the other posters have mentioned. Thus, anything, whether spiritual or material which changes, is subject in some way to time. Strictly speaking, there was no “time” when the Physical Universe was not, because before creation, nothing existed which changed… hence no time. Time only began with creation.
 
DaveBj said:
Have fun studying this, about how God has to exist outside time, because time is part of the created universe, God does not exist inside what He has created (altho he can manifest Himself). I really worked up a study about this a couple decades ago. It was like climbing a mountain, and when I finally struggled over that last rock and reached the top, I found a bunch of 2nd-, 3rd-, and 4th-century Catholic theologians already there, sitting around and eating fried chicken and hush puppies.

(Okay, I made that last part up. But the timelessness of God is ancient knowledge in the Church.)
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You know I’ve read something like that before. God is not part of his creation. His injection is called “providence” if I’m correct.
 
JimG said:
Yes, God is pure spirit, and has no extension in either space or time. He does not spread himself out in three dimensions. (He has no parts to take up space.) He is not spread out in time (he has no sequential moments of existence to be spread out in time, but possesses his entire existence as a unified totality. To him, all moments are now.

He can act in time. After all, he created it. He can act in space. He created that too. Time and space came into existence with Creation of the material world–the universe. We call that mode of existence eternal.
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Mode of existance eternal? Where can I find out more about this. Divine providence would’ve been God’s interference with Onan in killing him. However that was done. I know people do all the time what he did and are not struck dead. That I know of.
 
Katholish said:
One could argue that being outside of time is part of the very “definition” of what it means to be God. It is the de fide teaching of the Church, and explained admirably by St. Thomas.

Time is defined as the “measure of change” as some of the other posters have mentioned. Thus, anything, whether spiritual or material which changes, is subject in some way to time. Strictly speaking, there was no “time” when the Physical Universe was not, because before creation, nothing existed which changed… hence no time. Time only began with creation.
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I don’t believe that the statement God exists outside of time is de fide. Please provide something to back this up.

I am not saying that God is subject to time, but I question whether “time” was created. I believe God is infinite. But my point I think is that the statement God exists outside of time is more symbolic than real. Scientists and Philosophers today still argue about the nature of time. Some believe time to be a structure of the intellect. If that is so then even animals may exist “outside of time” in their own world.

We believe in Purgatory, which according to the church is temporary, and takes place in eternity. How is that?
 
The material world spreads out all of its parts in space and spreads out its changes in time. Material beings are limited, occupying a particular boundary of space, occupying a particular extent of time. In creating the universe, the creation of space and time was a concomitant of the creation of matter–it is a property of matter / energy.

Human beings occupy a particular bounded space defined by our body, and a particular temporal extension defined by our beginning and ending. We do not hold all of our being at once. We hold it on a moment-to-moment basis, with only a particular instant present to us at a given time.

God does not exist in time, but outside of it. He does not possess his being as a sequence of instants, but as a totality. He views all moments within the universe simultaneously and all space within the universe simultaneously.
 
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JimG:
The material world spreads out all of its parts in space and spreads out its changes in time.
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Are the Angels part of the material world?
Are they “outside of time?”
 
AmbroseSJ said:
Are the Angels part of the material world?
Are they “outside of time?”
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Angels are spiritual beings. And to that extent, yes, they exist outside of time. Neither do they occupy space. Angels can only be said to be in a particular space to the extent that they are acting in a place. The nature and extent of angelic action is a matter of speculative theology which I haven’t studied at any length, but I’m sure there are resources. Perhaps Peter Kreeft has written something on the spubject.

But here’s another thing: The human soul is a spiritual being, and as such, it does not occupy time or space.

Well then, how can it work with the material body? It is the animating principle of the body. The soul possesses the faculties of intellect and will, which depend on (name removed by moderator)ut from the senses, in order to form abstract ideas and to know reality. (This is different than the way that angels know things.) Body and soul form one human being with a spiritual component and a material component.
 
JimG said:
Angels are spiritual beings. And to that extent, yes, they exist outside of time. Neither do they occupy space. Angels can only be said to be in a particular space to the extent that they are acting in a place. The nature and extent of angelic action is a matter of speculative theology which I haven’t studied at any length, but I’m sure there are resources. Perhaps Peter Kreeft has written something on the spubject.

But here’s another thing: The human soul is a spiritual being, and as such, it does not occupy time or space.

Well then, how can it work with the material body? It is the animating principle of the body. The soul possesses the faculties of intellect and will, which depend on (name removed by moderator)ut from the senses, in order to form abstract ideas and to know reality. (This is different than the way that angels know things.) Body and soul form one human being with a spiritual component and a material component.
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I thought the spirit was the animating principle and the soul is the fruit of the spirit’s work in the body?
 
billcu1 said:
I thought the spirit was the animating principle and the soul is the fruit of the spirit’s work in the body?
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Catholic philosophy has always considered man a creature comprised of body and soul The body is material, the soul is spirit.
 
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