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agnosticforlife
Guest
I have been plagued by this question for many years of my life, and I’ve never been sure of the answer…Can someone help me make up my mind?
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Della
Guest
So we know how to address them, what are your difficulties believing that God exists? 
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agnosticforlife
Guest
There’s just no way to prove it. He doesn’t influence my life in any way.
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VociMike
Guest
How do you know he doesn’t influence your life in any way? Isn’t that just a giant assumption?
For example, do other animals ask if God exists? If not, why not? Why does it matter to humans but not to any other living creature?
Another point - if God doesn’t exist, how do you account for everything? According to Occam’s Razor, your answer should be simpler than God. Is it?
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Della
Guest
What kind of proof do you mean? Five senses? Philosophically? Theologically? Scientifically? Help us out here.
And maybe he doesn’t influence your life because you don’t let him. He doesn’t impose himself on us. He wants to be asked into our lives.
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agnosticforlife
Guest
We can ask if God exists because we can think for ourselves.
Scientifically. I dunno, but an unstable, explosive particle being set off is a lot more plausible to me than an invisible man in the sky calling everything good as he makes it.
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agnosticforlife
Guest
In pretty much every way, I can’t just put my faith into something that can’t be proven.What kind of proof do you mean? Five senses? Philosophically? Theologically? Scientifically? Help us out here.
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Exalt
Guest
Assumption #1: You believe that Occam’s Razor is correct.
Assumption #2: You believe that “God” is a simple answer. In fact, it is not. To account for all the problems with an omnipotent, omniscient, all-good, all-merciful, all-just, personal God of the Israelites, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the one who sent himself to die to save us from sin, etc, is a very difficult process. Volumes of theology written to address the various apparent contradictions therein do not incline this reader to believe that your notion of God is simple at all.
Assumption #3: That we *must *answer your question for why “everything” exists. If no available answer convinces us thoroughly, we must pick the one most likely to be true - even if it’s objective likelihood is infinitesimal in our minds. Your argument assumes “None Of The Above” is not permitted for a reasonable person. On the contrary, when presented with a question in which all available answers do not satisfy, the reasonable thing to do is say “I don’t know.”
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ckempston
Guest
An unstable, explosive particle being set off by what? It seems natural that an intelligent being would take pride in creating something, especially if it was indeed well done. It’s easier for me to believe the invisible man story than to believe the mass of the entire universe was smaller than the head of a pin.
Believing in the Big Bang takes as much, or more, faith as believing in God. Why do you suppose you accept one more easily than the other?
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06convert
Guest
I’m going to kind of ramble here. It’s stuff like this that helped me start to believe that God truly exists. Back when I didn’t feel his presence in my personal life.
I must ask you what you think are the odds that everything in this world is the way it is simply by chance. From the color of your eyes, to the color of the sky, the properties of elements. Is this just a random coincidence?
Seems much more logical to me that everything was created in harmony by a far superior being.
For everything to be random consider the following anology:
If you were walking down the sidewalk an noticed a handful or so of quarters laying around randomly on the sidewalk. You would probably think to yourself, “wow someone must have dropped a roll of quarters, or someone has a hole in their pocket”.
Now, if you were walking down the sidewalk and noticed a handful or so of quarters, standing on edge, lined up perfectly in a row, facing the same way you might say something to yourself like, “someone put these here”.
Believing everything is random would be the same as seeing those lined up quarters and thinking that someone dropped them and they fell that way.
Think about some of the things that happen everyday that you think nothing about.
Ice floats! What am I talking about? Every compound in this world gets more dense as it solidifies. Except water. It defies all other compounds. Why is this important? Well, ice floats, what if it didn’t? Think about the oceans and all that ice that floats on them.
Kind of weird when you think about this stuff. Could it really be random?
I must ask you what you think are the odds that everything in this world is the way it is simply by chance. From the color of your eyes, to the color of the sky, the properties of elements. Is this just a random coincidence?
Seems much more logical to me that everything was created in harmony by a far superior being.
For everything to be random consider the following anology:
If you were walking down the sidewalk an noticed a handful or so of quarters laying around randomly on the sidewalk. You would probably think to yourself, “wow someone must have dropped a roll of quarters, or someone has a hole in their pocket”.
Now, if you were walking down the sidewalk and noticed a handful or so of quarters, standing on edge, lined up perfectly in a row, facing the same way you might say something to yourself like, “someone put these here”.
Believing everything is random would be the same as seeing those lined up quarters and thinking that someone dropped them and they fell that way.
Think about some of the things that happen everyday that you think nothing about.
Ice floats! What am I talking about? Every compound in this world gets more dense as it solidifies. Except water. It defies all other compounds. Why is this important? Well, ice floats, what if it didn’t? Think about the oceans and all that ice that floats on them.
Kind of weird when you think about this stuff. Could it really be random?
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ckempston
Guest
Occams Razor is usually correct. It’s a reasonable assumption.
We don’t have to start with the Judeo-Christian God. So far, the only thing that has been hinted at is that some intelligent force was involved. It’s best to start with the basics and move up from there.
Agnostic came and asked people to help him make up his mind, and people are providing answers that they find reasonable. You are essentially telling him or her to remain in the agnostic state. It’s obviously not a comfortable position for him/her. “None of the above” is certainly a reasonable option, but there’s a pretty simple problem with that: it doesn’t answer any questions, which is what was the point of the discussion is.
On the contrary, when presented with a question in which all available answers do not satisfy, the reasonable thing to do is continue to look for an answer until one does satisfy.
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coolduude
Guest
This from St. Anslem:
“Now we believe that [the Lord] is something that than which nothing greater can be conceived.”
“Then is there no such nature, since the fool has said in his heart: God is not?”
“But certainly this same fool, when he hears this very thing that I am saying—something than which nothing greater can be imagined—understands what he hears; and what he understands is in his understanding, even if he does not understand that it is. For it is one thing for a thing to be in the understanding, and another to understand that a thing is.”
“For when a painter imagines beforehand what he is going to make, he has in his understanding what he has not yet made but he does not yet understand that it is. But when he has already painted it, he both has in his understanding what he has already painted and understands that it is.”
“Therefore, even the fool is bound to agree that there is at least in the understanding something than which nothing greater can be imagined, because, when he hears this, he understands it, and whatever is understood is in the understanding.”
“And certainly that than which a greater cannot be imagined cannot be in the understanding alone. For if it is at least in the understanding alone, it can be imagined to be in reality too, which is greater.”
“Therefore if that than which a greater cannot be imagined is in the understanding alone, that very thing than which a greater cannot be imagined is something than which a greater can be imagined. But certainly this cannot be.”
“There exists, therefore, beyond doubt something than which a greater cannot be imagined, both in the understanding and in reality.”
And here is that prayer in video:
youtube.com/watch?v=caRqlja12D4
And watch this as well:
youtube.com/watch?v=JEelT5_wD4Y
Proof of God through nature.
Does that help?
“Now we believe that [the Lord] is something that than which nothing greater can be conceived.”
“Then is there no such nature, since the fool has said in his heart: God is not?”
“But certainly this same fool, when he hears this very thing that I am saying—something than which nothing greater can be imagined—understands what he hears; and what he understands is in his understanding, even if he does not understand that it is. For it is one thing for a thing to be in the understanding, and another to understand that a thing is.”
“For when a painter imagines beforehand what he is going to make, he has in his understanding what he has not yet made but he does not yet understand that it is. But when he has already painted it, he both has in his understanding what he has already painted and understands that it is.”
“Therefore, even the fool is bound to agree that there is at least in the understanding something than which nothing greater can be imagined, because, when he hears this, he understands it, and whatever is understood is in the understanding.”
“And certainly that than which a greater cannot be imagined cannot be in the understanding alone. For if it is at least in the understanding alone, it can be imagined to be in reality too, which is greater.”
“Therefore if that than which a greater cannot be imagined is in the understanding alone, that very thing than which a greater cannot be imagined is something than which a greater can be imagined. But certainly this cannot be.”
“There exists, therefore, beyond doubt something than which a greater cannot be imagined, both in the understanding and in reality.”
And here is that prayer in video:
youtube.com/watch?v=caRqlja12D4
And watch this as well:
youtube.com/watch?v=JEelT5_wD4Y
Proof of God through nature.
Does that help?
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agnosticforlife
Guest
It’s called density.
Believing in God takes faith in something that can’t actually be proven. The Big Bang was actually scientifically proven by red drift, where everything in the universe is still drifting from the force of the explosion, and by a series of other things.
Also, just for kicks, dictionary.com defines theory as:
a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena
Faith is defined as:
confidence or trust in a person or thing
The former requires evidence. The latter requires confidence and trust.
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WWJD_FAKB
Guest
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Yeeeep…Good old Occam’s Razor.
Yeeeep…Good old Occam’s Razor.
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ckempston
Guest
What about density? Do you really understand this?
I think you mean red shift. Scientists essentially know jack-squat about the universe in comparison to all that there is to know. You speak with certainty about things which you’ve probably never personally seen or experienced. You believe red shift exists because credible people claim that it does. You obviously have faith in something. Why?
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ryanoneil
Guest
I don’t think I can help you make up your mind. I’ve always felt there is more to life than blinking out of existence. I imagine a universe without a creator as a large funnel that drains into nothing and I figure if God doen’t exist there is no ultimate meaning to anything.
I wan’t life to mean something and be more than a random accident!
Peace
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agnosticforlife
Guest
Sorry about the red drift, shift whatever thing it is. I remember it was explained to me originally as everything drifting, so the confusion arose there. Anyway, I believe in the Big Bang and other related ideas because they actually make sense, as opposed to the invisible man in the sky. Everything we know about religion is essentially a contradiction.
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grannymh
Guest
Welcome agnosticforlife,
What a wonderful way to start 2009 by getting a pesky question settled.
I see that you already have some interesting replies. Most of them better expressed than I could. This is because when I was in high school, like a typical teenager, I stomped my foot and said it is now or never – I want to know if God exists. I was a cradle Catholic in a Catholic girls’ high school when I made that declaration. And the “proof” I used was the most irrational one ever. But it worked for me as it helped make up my mind. Consequently, while I understand many “proofs” for the existence of God and can explain them on paper, when it comes to talking with an individual person, I hesitate as I think back to my own experience. Maybe down the road, I can offer some advice about making up one’s mind. Note: it definitely is o.k. to laugh.
Blessings,
grannymh
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GailMac4
Guest
Dear Agnosticforlife - you could ask yourself this question - do you exist? If the answer is yes, then you might ask yourself this, who made me? If you think God may have had something to do with that, then you’re well on your way to acknowledging some supernatural being bigger than you.
Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. When you get done deciding whether or not God exists, I suggest you visit some of the other places on the web that express what the Catholic Church believes and teaches about Him.
God bless.
Peace,
Gail
Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. When you get done deciding whether or not God exists, I suggest you visit some of the other places on the web that express what the Catholic Church believes and teaches about Him.
God bless.
Peace,
Gail
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Della
Guest
We don’t claim to have proof that can be tested in a lab, although there have been many verifiable miracles down through the centuries, unless you hold that everyone at all times have been deceived or mistaken.
What we claim is that belief in God is reasonable. For proof we point out the stars in the sky and the sense of wonder looking at them brings, the beauty of a rose, the faith of a child.
We believe in Christianity because we believe in the Resurrection of Christ. And we believe in the Resurrection of Christ because he was seen, heard, and touched by living witnesses–hundreds of them, afterwards.
As I stated above, God cannot have an influence in our life unless we ask him to be a part of our life. After all, God is a person, not a concept only. It’d be like asking for someone in China to have an influence in your life with whom you have never communicated or wish to communicate. He is waiting for you to ask him. It’s just that simple, really, for God is simple and plain, if not easy to comprehend.
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