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ckempston
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Scientific explanations of the origin of the universe can hardly be considered “natural” as we understand it (e.g. brane theory, multiverses, etc.)
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redhen
Guest
Hi again VociMike. I’m sure we’re debated this before, but I am obliged to chime in once again. Thinking is just talking to yourself. So why don’t other animals talk? Well, many animals do communicate, verbally and non-verbally. Human speech has evolved due to our descended larynx, hyoid bone, Broca’s area and the Foxp2 gene.Why? Other animals can’t. Don’t you find it surprising how different we are than any other creature? Don’t you find it surprising that we wonder about things like God?
Neanderthal also had these same traits and was most definitely capable of speech, iht.com/articles/2007/10/18/asia/cave.php and possibly homo erectus as well.
Chimps have been known to learn and use sign language. In other cognitive capabilities, chimps can vastly outperform modern humans, i.e. short term memory dailymail.co.uk/news/article-510260/Im-chimpion–Ape-trounces-best-human-world-memory-competition.html
We can also talk about the biological defects in modern humans that came about through evolution, i.e. bipedalism, but I’ve already covered that in an earlier thread.
Modern homo sapiens is far from perfect. If that’s the best an omnipotent creator can come up with, I’m not impressed.
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ryanoneil
Guest
You may be right, but Christ’s message (to a fallen world) IS one of hope. I don’t think it is a mistake that some of Jesus’ last words are: “Do not be afraid and Peace be with you.” If someone wants to put their feelings of security in themselves or the world that is their business, but it has never worked for me.I think statements like this actually deter non-believers. It gives the sense that one is insecure with the world and believes in God because it makes them feel better.
The hope I’ve been given is a gift and I wouldn’t trade it in for the world. Is this evidence of God?
Not by most peoples standards.
Is the message of hope in Christ that is contrasted with the “world” (John 17) evidence?
Not by most peoples standards.
Can I convince an atheist that God exists? Absolutely not.
The best I can do is show God in my life.
Peace
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crowonsnow
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How are those explanations not natural?Scientific explanations of the origin of the universe can hardly be considered “natural” as we understand it (e.g. brane theory, multiverses, etc.)
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ckempston
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Because they either take place outside our “natural” universe, or they defy known “natural” laws. That’s practically the exact definition of supernatural: something above, beyond, or hidden from the physical universe.How are those explanations not natural?
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VociMike
Guest
No, the supernatural accounts for all the natural at once. No “natural” explanation does this. If you disagree, please offer the natural explanation for everything.Occam’s razor recommends using the explanation that uses the fewest entities. If you choose to assume there is something supernatural, you still have to account for the natural. Occam’s razor therefore makes the natural the simplest and obvious choice by cutting out anything alleged to be other than natural.
BTW, according to your view, Occam’s Razor would argue that one should conclude that books do not have authors, since the author would be an additional entity.
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crowonsnow
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So if we find the universe is bigger than what we presently think it is, that’s the “supernatural” part?Because they either take place outside our “natural” universe, or they defy known “natural” laws. That’s practically the exact definition of supernatural: something above, beyond, or hidden from the physical universe.
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grannymh
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Dear agnosticforlife,We can ask if God exists because we can think for ourselves.
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You are absolutely right in the above quote.
Advanced thinking and then to put this thinking into action is one of the main differences between humans and other animals. Now that I think about it, the ability to ask is significant. Asking a question is not the same as knowing the answer or making up an answer or denying the answer, or accepting one answer over another answer or finding the true answer.
Could we have missed the point of history regarding the so called god invention? Perhaps we should shift from the “answers” to the question itself.
Where did the desire to know God’s existence come from? Why do subsequent civilizations continue to ask does God exist? Or to ask is God dead? Why do individuals want to know if God really exists? To me it seems very likely, that since the beginning of recorded history, there was within human beings, an innate sense of a being beyond themselves and beyond the world which was known. There was the sense that this transcendent being could connect with the world.
Now there are some who insist that God is not part of the physical, material, scientific world. Yet, the question about God has been asked ever since we evolved into an extraordinary thinking being. Considering that questions are asked about the world around us because we innately know it exists, we should also consider that the question about the existence of God is possible because we know innately that God exists.
Blessings for 2009
grannymh
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VociMike
Guest
None of this begins to address the plain fact that humans discuss and contemplate physical and metaphysical concepts that no other animal even comes close to. Why dismiss this reality so off-handedly?Hi again VociMike. I’m sure we’re debated this before, but I am obliged to chime in once again. Thinking is just talking to yourself. So why don’t other animals talk? Well, many animals do communicate, verbally and non-verbally. Human speech has evolved due to our descended larynx, hyoid bone, Broca’s area and the Foxp2 gene.
Neanderthal also had these same traits and was most definitely capable of speech, iht.com/articles/2007/10/18/asia/cave.php and possibly homo erectus as well.
Chimps have been known to learn and use sign language. In other cognitive capabilities, chimps can vastly outperform modern humans, i.e. short term memory dailymail.co.uk/news/article-510260/Im-chimpion–Ape-trounces-best-human-world-memory-competition.html
We can also talk about the biological defects in modern humans that came about through evolution, i.e. bipedalism, but I’ve already covered that in an earlier thread.
If you’ve been listening, you know that Christianity teaches that the world is a fallen place. Therefore, imperfection is expected, and sure enough, we find it.Modern homo sapiens is far from perfect. If that’s the best an omnipotent creator can come up with, I’m not impressed.
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ckempston
Guest
You’re kidding, right? Alternate dimensions do not simply make the universe “bigger.”So if we find the universe is bigger than what we presently think it is, that’s the “supernatural” part?
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cazayoux
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Atheism can’t be proven either.… I can’t just put my faith into something that can’t be proven.
I never understood the atheist.
He says to me “your stance is illogical because you have no proof for it”.
I say back to the atheist the very same thing “your stance is illogical because you have no proof for it”.
To state definitively that God does not exist, is to do so without any proof what-so-ever. I can understand an agnostic that says there is no proof either way. With an agnostic, we can have discussions without animosity. (or this has at least been my experience in comparison to atheists.)
michel
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VociMike
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You’re quite right, that atheism is every bit as much based on faith (belief in something not proven) as is Christianity. And the common atheist explanation for everything (“I don’t know why the universe exists, I just know it isn’t God”) is not logical.Atheism can’t be proven either.
I never understood the atheist.
He says to me “your stance is illogical because you have no proof for it”.
I say back to the atheist the very same thing “your stance is illogical because you have no proof for it”.
To state definitively that God does not exist, is to do so without any proof what-so-ever. I can understand an agnostic that says there is no proof either way. With an agnostic, we can have discussions without animosity. (or this has at least been my experience in comparison to atheists.)
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crowonsnow
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I don’t know. That’s why I asked.You’re kidding, right? Alternate dimensions do not simply make the universe “bigger.”
You said ‘outside our natural universe.’ I’m asking why something outside our universe isn’t as natural as something inside our universe. What’s unnatural about there being something outside our universe? I believe there was even an article recently where astronomers detected movement in a part of our universe, the gravitational attractor most likely being outside. It would be along the same lines as a vanishing graviton and M theory, an observation, at least tentatively pointing to something beyond our universe.
Now if you’d said ‘outside our cosmos’ I wouldn’t be confused because the cosmos has a different meaning than universe. It doesn’t have an outside. But even the cosmos is quite a natural concept. There isn’t anything unnatural about a cosmos.
So again, I’m simply asking why something outside our universe is not natural.
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thistle
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peterkreeft.com/topics/gods-existence.htmI have been plagued by this question for many years of my life, and I’ve never been sure of the answer…Can someone help me make up my mind?
peterkreeft.com/topics/design.htm
peterkreeft.com/topics/first-cause.htm
peterkreeft.com/topics/conscience.htm
peterkreeft.com/topics/history.htm
peterkreeft.com/topics/pascals-wager.htm
peterkreeft.com/topics/desire.htm
peterkreeft.com/topics/christ-divinity.htm
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RosaryFan
Guest
I know this doesn’t qualify for the “proof” you require, but don’t you see that the workings of nature, especially the human body, more particularly, the human brain, have to be products of intelligent design? The human brain alone is the most fascinating thing - I don’t see how you can think that’s simply a product of some random explosion.
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Sinner1
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Most neuroscientists will tell you that the brain stem, being a massive jumbled mess, is quite possibly the best evidence against intelligent design.I know this doesn’t qualify for the “proof” you require, but don’t you see that the workings of nature, especially the human body, more particularly, the human brain, have to be products of intelligent design? The human brain alone is the most fascinating thing - I don’t see how you can think that’s simply a product of some random explosion.
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RosaryFan
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Okay, let’s assume the human brain is a “jumbled mess”, as you say. Although, the human brain is the ONLY thing in creation that can contemplate its own existence - that should really count for something.Most neuroscientists will tell you that the brain stem, being a massive jumbled mess, is quite possibly the best evidence against intelligent design.
What about the delicate balance in nature. The perfection of the cause and effect of all things.
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Sinner1
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Yeah, the brain truly is amazing.Okay, let’s assume the human brain is a “jumbled mess”, as you say. Although, the human brain is the ONLY thing in creation that can contemplate its own existence - that should really count for something.
I’d say that nature constantly in a state of disequilibrium. That’s why ecosystems are constantly changing, new species emerge, and old ones become extinct.What about the delicate balance in nature. The perfection of the cause and effect of all things.
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grannymh
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The fact that this massive jumbled mess works is the best evidence for an intellegent designer.Most neuroscientists will tell you that the brain stem, being a massive jumbled mess, is quite possibly the best evidence against intelligent design.
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Sinner1
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No, because if it was properly designed, it would be neat and free from defects. Instead, the complexity of the brain stem is a result of many evolutionary “hits” and “misses” throughout the years. As a consequence of the cross-wiring and jumbled circuits, our brains are prone to many problems.The fact that this massive jumbled mess works is the best evidence for an intellegent designer.
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