Does God Exist????

[PonderingJak]

The last three days I spent stuck in a motorhome watching my two brothers at an American Heritage Girls camp. I am 14, they are 4 and 9. They weren’t there most of the time (off having fun most of the time, turns out I wasn’t needed or wanted) and I mostly spent my time reading a single picture book of Doctor Who and watching movies picked by the younger kids. I became bored very quickly and soon took to thinking about my religion. Lately, life has sucked, and has been ever since I started trying to get more involved with my faith. Turns out, life was actually fun before hand. And as I sat and thought, I realized that religion seemed like something to pacify and calm down people. And over time, whenever someone pointed out a flaw, they were quickly shushed and sent away. The questions they raised were given rational answers and dismissed. And the main reason that I thought this was because everything seems too perfect. People scared of dying? It’s alright, after they do, they’ll go to heaven if they’ve been good and spend eternity having fun. Bad things happen? Oh, it’s all part of “God’s Plan” and everything will turn out okay. And if it doesn’t? You’ll end up dying and going to heaven, so nothing bad there. You have no idea what to do? Offer your suffering to God. That’s one of the things I don’t get. You shouldn’t “blame” other people for things. You shouldn’t pass off your problems to other people. But it’s okay because there’s a being who conveniently can take all of that away. The most convincing thing I’ve seen is in this link: imgur.com/gallery/MAgQWlr . Look at that. It’s surrounded by posts that are supposed to be funny, and a whole bunch of idiocy, but this one pictures spoke volumes to me. All that wide open space, and there’s one tiny planet that apparently is the only thing worth saving. There’s a God that cares about that planet, because deep down everyone wants to be cared about, and this goes back to what I was saying earlier: it all seems too perfect. And while this doesn’t justify it, please believe me when I say that I had a whole bunch of stuff I thought about that I wanted to put down but mentally can’t put up with.

 

[Lion_IRC]

I love that God made a huge ‘Taj Mahal’ universe for us to dwell in.
It shows how much He cares for us.

If God placed us in a dismal, tiny “shoe box” of a universe that would cause me to doubt His love, His power and His majesty.

 

[InNomineDomini]

I’ll be honest with you, Jak: I think the argument that God isn’t real because our human nature seems to desire Him is just lame.

It’s kind of like saying that food isn’t real because we get hungry.

But there’s something more here.

Why would people desire religions that force them to confront themselves and to be challenged? Why would I constantly want to hold myself to some standard that I always fall short of? Why would I willingly give up “pleasures” just for the heck of it? Why would someone knowingly make up something like that?

If anything, we would make up world-views that truly make us comfortable — by telling us that all of our impulses and desires are really OK, that we can do whatever we want, and that we can live life however we see fit, utterly selfishly and for our own sake. Why bother with standards?

Ah! That sounds an awful lot like atheism to me.

So maybe atheism is really wish-fulfillment, hm?

At the very least, Jak, this cuts both ways. Everything you say about belief in God can be said about non-belief in God: it can give people peace of mind to know they can do whatever they like so long as they don’t get caught by earthly authorities; it can give them a sense of purpose, in terms of fulfilling all their base desires; it can make pain easier to manage, since all reality is merely the product of chance, and has no purpose, and so why make a fuss about things when they go wrong?

But the fact that any world-view has benefits—or at least perceived benefits—is not how we determine the objective lack of value of those world-views.

What? Our world-view has to have absolutely no benefit in order to be true? Why? That seems awfully weird.

If God were real, we would **expect **to find true fulfillment in worshiping Him, to find peace, and to find purpose and meaning. So therefore, when we do find those things, it makes no sense to say that they demonstrate that God does not exist. At the very least, they are consistent with the idea of God existing. Why? Because we would **expect **to see those things if He were real.

 

[abook]

I think if you want to see for yourself why belief in God is completely reasonable you will have to do some reading for yourself. Certainly one of the best philosophical defenses of the existence of a God is made by St. Thomas Aquinas, who is certainly one of the most prolific philsopher ever… His main writing on God’s existence is found here: newadvent.com/summa/1002.htm

If you are not already familiar with St. Thomas’ writings it is helpful to know the format. He begins with a certain number of objections (usually about 3), which are arguments against the belief he holds to be correct. Then he gives the “On the contrary”, which briefly summarizes the correct belief, followed by the “I answer that” explaining more in depth why his belief is true. Finally he replies to all the original objections.

A summary of the first two articles in this writing.
Article 1: asks whether the existence of God is self-evident. It is not
Article 2: asks whether God’s existence can be demonstrated. he says it can be demonstrated.
Article 3: this is the article that finally asks whether God actually exists. I think it is important that you read this for yourself as it is here (in the I answer that) that he gives his five main ways to know the existence of God.

If you have any trouble understanding any of these please reply back and I will be more than happy to help you understand them.

Also, with regards to the claim that Christians only dismiss those who disagree with them. This is true in some unfortunate cases however, it is not true of those who truly understand the faith. St. Thomas himself is a wonderful example of this as in his objections he argues against the existence of God just as well, if not better, than any atheist I have ever heard or read. The claim of dismissiveness is actually more true against atheists as I have never found an atheist philosopher who has ever given a coherent reason to not believe in God’s existence aside from those 2 which St. Thomas answers. Most atheist philosophers simply assume that there is no God and use their time trying to solve the moral/ethical problems that arise if God does not exist.

If you either don’t understand something I have said or believe that something I have said is wrong, please call me out on it and will be glad to explain my beliefs.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

The last three days I spent stuck in a motorhome watching my two brothers at an American Heritage Girls camp. I am 14, they are 4 and 9. They weren’t there most of the time (off having fun most of the time, turns out I wasn’t needed or wanted) and I mostly spent my time reading a single picture book of Doctor Who and watching movies picked by the younger kids. I became bored very quickly and soon took to thinking about my religion. Lately, life has sucked, and has been ever since I started trying to get more involved with my faith. Turns out, life was actually fun before hand. And as I sat and thought, I realized that religion seemed like something to pacify and calm down people. And over time, whenever someone pointed out a flaw, they were quickly shushed and sent away. The questions they raised were given rational answers and dismissed. And the main reason that I thought this was because everything seems too perfect. People scared of dying? It’s alright, after they do, they’ll go to heaven if they’ve been good and spend eternity having fun. Bad things happen? Oh, it’s all part of “God’s Plan” and everything will turn out okay. And if it doesn’t? You’ll end up dying and going to heaven, so nothing bad there. You have no idea what to do? Offer your suffering to God. That’s one of the things I don’t get. You shouldn’t “blame” other people for things. You shouldn’t pass off your problems to other people. But it’s okay because there’s a being who conveniently can take all of that away. The most convincing thing I’ve seen is in this link: imgur.com/gallery/MAgQWlr . Look at that. It’s surrounded by posts that are supposed to be funny, and a whole bunch of idiocy, but this one pictures spoke volumes to me. All that wide open space, and there’s one tiny planet that apparently is the only thing worth saving. There’s a God that cares about that planet, because deep down everyone wants to be cared about, and this goes back to what I was saying earlier: it all seems too perfect. And while this doesn’t justify it, please believe me when I say that I had a whole bunch of stuff I thought about that I wanted to put down but mentally can’t put up with.

The positive thing is that you are thinking. Everyone goes through periods of doubt, that is normal because our enemy, the devil, is constantly trying to convince us that God doesn’t exist. Just remember that those dark thoughts come from him, good thoughts come from God. Here is something that may help:

strangenotions.com/god-exists/

It may be a bit " adult " for you, but give it a try. Here is something else that may help:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=964833

Some of the images are awsome. Who made it all?

Finally, start praying, seriously, at least twice a day, and start reading the New Testament. God rewards effort.

Linus2nd

 

[fred_conty]

Sounds like “an idle mind is the devil’s workshop” kind of thing. Your bored being alone and I can’t say I blame you. Try to find some kind of hobby that will consume your interest. Get your exorcise, maybe run a mile a day as a final goal. Get some pen pals. It is hard to be left too much alone.

May Mary watch over and guide you.

 

[Wandile]

Read the 5 ways to prove the existence God by St. Thomas Aquinas presented in his Summa Theologica. Here is the first way:

“The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.”

newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm

 

[CalCatholic]

Hi Pondering,
I grew up with no mention of God in my life. My dad did not believe in God and my mother had stopped going to the Lutheran Church after her teens. I spent the first 47 years of my life (yes I am old) not thinking about God or Jesus. But over that last 3 years of that period of time I started thing about Christianity and going to church. I didn’t know why this was happening? No one was asking me to go to church, there was nothing wrong in my life, I was happy! But there was something missing, and after a lot of researching, reading and searching I found God.
God for me was that piece that was missing in my life while pondering the universe, big bang, life of earth,etc. Life seems so senseless if we live 30, 50, 80 years (if we are lucky) and then everything (family, friends, memories) suddenly turns to dust. Then after a couple of generations you are long forgotten. What a tragic comedy that is; worry all our life about going to a good school, getting a good job, having a loving family then ‘poof’ your dust? Really, is that all there is? I don’t think so. God gives meaning, purpose to our lives. And Jesus gives me access to that all powerful God who created this awesome universe (which you linked for us). Jesus is the loving face of God, because lets face it, the God that can throw this universe into motion from the start of the ‘Big Bang’ 13 1/2 billion years ago is a little too big and vast for me to grasp at times! But he sent his Son so that we could see God ‘face to face’ and believe in and have a relationship with him. God wants a relationship with you, but you have to come to him on your owns terms. A relationship based upon love can never be forced!
So Pondering, keep searching, and I will pray that you find God again! He is always calling to you. I just hope that it doesn’t take you 47 years, like it did for me!

 

[PulvisEtCinis]

Greetings Jak,

To me, the notion that all of this could exist apart from an Eternal God seems completely absurd; it is quite frankly contrary to reason. In my mind it is almost like trying to divide some number by zero (it is a meaningless expression).

Another point that I would like to make is that a lot of the things you mentioned above are more like caricatures of the faith, there is some truth to them, but they do not grasp at the heart of things.

"And the main reason that I thought this was because everything seems too perfect. People scared of dying? It’s alright, after they do, they’ll go to heaven if they’ve been good and spend eternity having fun. Bad things happen? Oh, it’s all part of “God’s Plan” and everything will turn out okay. And if it doesn’t? You’ll end up dying and going to heaven, so nothing bad there.”

Only if we die in a state of grace do we go to Heaven. It is not just about ‘being good’ it is about loving God and our neighbor through the Charity that has been poured into our hearts; if we do not have this it doesn’t matter how ‘good’ our actions seem to be, we will not see the kingdom of heaven. Read 1 Corinthians 13 that is what Paul is talking about. Moreover, Heaven is not about ‘having fun’ it is about seeing God, about unity with God, about this veil of shadows finally being lifted. It is about the fulfillment of our existence and the reason we were created. It is the final end that we must order ourselves to, not merely just some happy result of a directionless life, as the caricature seems to indicate. It is the great prize; we must run the race to achieve it!

Bad things happen, and it is indeed part of God’s plan, but it isn’t just simply that. There is a purpose to our sufferings. Some of our sufferings are chastisement to urge us to repent. Some of our sufferings are opportunities for merit; by resisting temptation and enduring suffering with patience we merit for ourselves (through grace of course) an increase of reward.

“You have no idea what to do? Offer your suffering to God. That’s one of the things I don’t get.”

We should offer our sufferings to God for the sake of penance. Our sins not only incur eternal punishment (if they are Mortal) but they also incur temporal punishment (either Mortal or Venial sins do this), we can offer up our sufferings for some of our penance to satisfy some of our temporal punishment. Moreover, we can offer up our sufferings as a form of surrender to God, kind of a “rather than complaining O Lord, I shall endure this patiently and willingly for Thy sake.”

“You shouldn’t “blame” other people for things. You shouldn’t pass off your problems to other people. But it’s okay because there’s a being who conveniently can take all of that away.”

The point is that we shouldn’t make excuses for our own faults, or situations caused by our own faults. We should humbly own up to our failings and bear with the consequences of our sins, kind of like the thief on the cross "One of the criminals who were railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” (Luke 23:39-41) The thief recognized that his circumstance was a result of his deeds, and a just circumstance at that, and his humble repentance saved him.

In addition, we should have mercy on those who offend us, forgiving them their faults as we have been forgiven. And yes, God can fix all of our problems and heal us of all of our weaknesses. However, some of our weaknesses are left in us for us to fight against; partly as a consequence of the damage done to ourselves (or our situation) by our past sins, and also for us to overcome those weaknesses with the help of God’s grace. Moreover, we shall never be completely free from weakness, temptation or tribulation until we have persevered to the end; we are merely strangers and exiles on this earth, seeking a heavenly city.

You mentioned that you were 14, I don’t mean this in a condescending way at all, but you are still young. There is one thing that I have learned (and I am still young as well, at 27) and that is that the carnal things that we often find ourselves seeking after for fulfillment in this life are largely a disappointment. We search and strive to ‘have fun’ and usually what we get out of it is something to distract ourselves briefly until we find a new distraction; there is absolutely no fulfillment in it. We hope for fulfillment but we really are just groping around in the dark moving from one thing to the next wondering why we can never be happy for longer than a short amount of time. Each disappointment moves on to another vain hope and when we attain that we are yet again disappointed; it wasn’t what we thought it would be, but rather than learning that we shall never be truly happy with mutable things we seek, yet again, another distraction: Vanity I say! Perhaps it is just me, but given the amount of unhappiness and the general listless and empty attitude I see in this cold society, I would be confident saying that my experience is not unique.

I understand that looking at some of it on the surface just seems to be ‘too good to be true’ or perhaps arbitrary, but I would encourage you to look more deeply into things. Some of the other posters have suggested that you read Aquinas on the existence of God, this I recommend also (because it is absolutely true) but more than this I would recommend reading Aquinas in general; his explanations are usually right on point and brilliant.