A
adrift
Guest
Please site the scripture that says we are in heaven in a state called dead or rest or sleep.
- Status
H
HailMary
Guest
Have you ever read the book of Job? Try sometime.
J
Joseph_Smith
Guest
Please understand i do not care what you priest has to say on a subject, I care as to what God has to say on a subject. I am not seeking to please your priest I am seeking to please God. I am suprised that you are not actually. Some one said that there priest said that Mary could influence her son. Well is Mary Dead. and does that show up in the bible. The answer to both is Mary is indeed dead and praying to Mary is not in the scriptures at all. Praying to any one but God is a pagan tridation and not a christian tridation.
There exist a casum between heaven and the earth. Those who are in heaven are in a state of rest. And not working on our behalf anymore. I am speaking of the human race here.
Christ on the other hand is alive in heaven operating as our one mediator per the teaching of the apostles. And there is the rift you are practicing things agaist the word of God. This is disobidence to God instructions as give by the Holy Spirit.
We do not have a God who can’t hear and we don’t pray to other gods. We pray to the one true God. His name is Jesus and he is also our one high priest. This is christianty 101 the basic stuff. If any priest is teaching any other things then these i will assure you he is speaking with out a basic understanding of the God and his kingdom. A kingdon has one King And his name is Jesus.
As we are living we as priest make pertitions to Christ the high priest he then presents them to Father God. We are in the outer court, Jesus is in the enter court presiding before the Father.
Another problem with praying to the dead saints is this, whom did the prophet pray to before Jesus. They prayed to God and whom did the aposles pray to God. and who did Mary pray to God. Then why are you praying to every one but God?
There exist a casum between heaven and the earth. Those who are in heaven are in a state of rest. And not working on our behalf anymore. I am speaking of the human race here.
Christ on the other hand is alive in heaven operating as our one mediator per the teaching of the apostles. And there is the rift you are practicing things agaist the word of God. This is disobidence to God instructions as give by the Holy Spirit.
We do not have a God who can’t hear and we don’t pray to other gods. We pray to the one true God. His name is Jesus and he is also our one high priest. This is christianty 101 the basic stuff. If any priest is teaching any other things then these i will assure you he is speaking with out a basic understanding of the God and his kingdom. A kingdon has one King And his name is Jesus.
As we are living we as priest make pertitions to Christ the high priest he then presents them to Father God. We are in the outer court, Jesus is in the enter court presiding before the Father.
Another problem with praying to the dead saints is this, whom did the prophet pray to before Jesus. They prayed to God and whom did the aposles pray to God. and who did Mary pray to God. Then why are you praying to every one but God?
R
Rye-Guy
Guest
I’m pretty sure I pray to God too! But a Biblical passage to support the intercession can be found here:
“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20–21)
and
“Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!”
Ps. 148
and
“[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4)
“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20–21)
and
“Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!”
Ps. 148
and
“[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4)
H
HailMary
Guest
Reveltions 5:8
Rev 8:3-4:
why do you read the bible Joseph Smith?
Where did it come from? You know this is a question you should look more deeply into.
L
LilyM
Guest
A chasm between heaven and earth?? I’ve read my bible carefully - I see a chasm betwen those in heaven and those in hell, but where does it mention a chasm between heaven and earth?
Look at the story of the beggar Lazarus and the rich man for heaven’s sake - who does the rich man ask for help? Father Abraham and Lazarus, both dead. And both very much able to help those on earth. They don’t. Why? As Abraham says, it’s because the help would be ineffective, not because he is unable to send it.
Y
YADA
Guest
Mary is not dead and there is not the great seperation between heaven and earth that you imagine. Do you not read any of the scripture quotes presented to you? Do you just ignore all of the scriptures that are problematic for your theology?
Revelation has been quoted for you before but I will post it again from Chapter 5
Revelation has been quoted for you before but I will post it again from Chapter 5
and from Chapter 6:
Clearly, there are believers in heaven who petition the Lord. They are aware of what is still happening to believers on earth and they sing praises to God and offer our prayers like incense to Jesus. Jesus is the God of the LIVING not the dead!
J
Joseph_Smith
Guest
“[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4)
These prayers are being presented to God by angles they are our prayer and the prayers of all christans for all time. It should also be noted that these prayers are about judgement if you have not figuared that out yeat. Read on a little bit more.
When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones. 9 They sang a new hymn: “Worthy are you to receive the scroll and to break open its seals, for you were slain and with your blood you purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue, people and nation. 10 You made them a kingdom and priests for our God, and they will reign on earth.” 11 I looked again and heard the voices of many angels who surrounded the throne and the living creatures and the elders. They were countless 5 in number, 12 and they cried out in a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches, wisdom and strength, honor and glory and blessing.” 13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: “To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever.” 14 The four living creatures answered, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Well let us consider this one we have been raptures already. You would expect us to be in heaven. Do you see any of us praying to any saints not a one.
Code:
You will notice that those prayer are from saints. Got news for you are saints. Every man woman and child that have been born again are the saints. the angles are servant unto God in heaven and they also are taking the prayer to whom. To God.
Code:
Some one wanted to know about the casum between heaven and earth. This is know as the second heaven. The surface of the earth is the first heaven. The second heaven is above that one distance unknown to us. And the third heaven i were God is located.
When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar 8 the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. 10 They cried out in a loud voice, "How long will it be, holy and true master, 9 before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?" 11 Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been.
Let explore the events were is the church at this time in heaven and we are all are there. So sure the vengence is being sout. The blood cry out. These saints may even be us they are not praying to other saint they are praying to God.Well let us consider this one we have been raptures already. You would expect us to be in heaven. Do you see any of us praying to any saints not a one.
Code:
The reason i did not respond to these sooner is because they do not address the question nor do they shed any light on the question actually they are not even part of this line of thought. Just none sence in this post.
Imagination is cast down by scripture, not me i have given scripture you have not. You are dealing in mystic teaching i am speaking about the word of God.
R
Rye-Guy
Guest
Raptures and schisms??? That sounds a quite mystic to me! And what question? I’m fairly certain we have responded to every one of your posts with answers. And as is clearly shown the Bible is used to support such dogma.
J
Joseph_Smith
Guest
Actually the rapture is suported in the scripture quite well. If you have a problem with Gods word maybe you should take it up with God. It is his word not mine. By the way i was caught up in the spirit once between heaven and the earth and i witnessed the rapture of the saints. It is a site for sure.
H
HailMary
Guest
And what is “God Word” or the “Word of God” Mr. Smith?
Y
YADA
Guest
You, my friend are delusional…
As for the scriptures, the martyrs cry out and are told their numbers are not yet complete…that means there are saints in heaven [who were killed for their faith] and that there are saints still living on earth who have yet to be martyred. They are presenting prayers from those on earth, under the earth and above the earth. They exactly prove the point.
And yes, catholics believe that all followers of Jesus are saints. We also recognize that there are some Christians who have lived exemplory lives or paid the ultimate price for their beliefs [martyrdom] who are Saints with a capital ‘S’ These Christians provide an example for us to follow. These saints are praying for us and with us in Heaven.
And I have the same scriptures as you have. I read and study the same scriptures. I love the scriptures and I appreciate the Church who compiled, preserved and handed on these sacred writings.
The same Church you should thank for declaring which 27 books were inspired and worthy of study. The same church without which you woud be reading from the Gospel of Thomas believing it to be inspired by God and worthy of study. Or perhaps after reading your posts mabe you are studying them … your talking points and cut and paste posts have to be coming from some anti-christian source…
R
Rye-Guy
Guest
The Rapture does not find itself until the 1800’s…and is completely absent from all Christian tradition before that point…and therefore is quite fictional and made up.
catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp
catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp
C
Church_Militant
Guest
That verse is pulled all out of it’s context and does not apply at all to this topic. You have no concept of The Communion of Saints but who knows…maybe you’ll learn.
:yawn: Gosh, so that great cloud of witnessezs in Hebrews 12:1 is dead huh? Better go tell them! 1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:
If you say so, but the fact is that every time we pray for the salvation of any other person we are in fact taking on a scriptural mediatorship between God and man…
BTW if Jesus is our “living Mediator” and the saints in heaven are living there with Him then how can you assert that the intercessuion of saints is unscriptural and in error? The Book of Revelation plainly tells us of the saints in offering prayers and praise to God. What are they praying for then…they certainly have no needs.
Yes He does, but that is Necromancy and this is the intercession of Christian saints which is an entirely different thing. Necromancy in the Bible is forbidden because it involves fortune telling or forcasting the future.
Those prohibitions do not apply to the scriptural intercession of saints since there is no seeking of future information. (Gosh…you never thought of that did you? But it’s 100% Biblical.)
See…like I’ve already shown you…your interpretation is ignorant and errant since none of this, (Repeat) none of this applies to the intercession of the saints.
Like St. Paul told St. Timothy, “Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.”
Z
Zooey
Guest
But it doesna’ cast down your imagination, Joseph Smith!!
You
imagine & imagine & imagine some more…http://bestsmileys.com/surprised/5....d/5.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/surprised/5.gif
And** you** say that we are talking about “mystic talk”!!!
http://bestsmileys.com/lol/16.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/lol/5.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/lol/1.gif
http://bestsmileys.com/lol/13.gif
M
Michael_Francis
Guest
Having answered the OP’s question, this thread is now closed.
- Status