Does God give people handicaps?

[Yorkshireman]

Your conclusion is not supported by the Wikipedia excerpt you posted. The wikipedia quote states nothing regarding our original human parents nor does it give evidence that Pope Benedict rejects original first parents. It isn’t even talking about human beings. It’s talking about the big bang theory.

Please produce the statement from Pope Benedict that says we do not have a real set of first parents and that there is no Original Sin.

From Communion and Stewardship:
Human Persons Created in the Image of God

(The July 2004 Vatican Statement on Creation and Evolution)
While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5-4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. bringyou.to/apologetics/p80.htm

 

[Holly3278]

What about people that are so mentally handicapped that they are not capable of thinking beyond the level of a small child? A person like this cannot be close to God because they don’t have the mental capacity for it. Some people are so mentally handicapped that the concept of God and having a relationship with God is incomprehensible.

As others have already said, even a person with a very severe mental handicap can still have a relationship with God. And I dare say that they may even be capable of having a more intense relationship with God than a mentally healthy person.

 

[PennitentMan]

Actually, that’s straight from a complete misinterpretation and lack of understanding of God and Scripture.

Lol! Of COURSE it would be, of course…I’ve honestly heard that before…like every time someone uses scripture to show something contraditcory to the main picture.

 

[Zatzat]

Actually, that’s straight from a complete misinterpretation and lack of understanding of God and Scripture.

One of your fellow Catholics said;

God permits everything to happen.

I say;

God knows whose going to be disabled or diseased, God has the power to fix the issue, God permits the disability / disease, God chooses that he will not fix the disability / disease.

Where’s the misunderstanding?

 

[Zatzat]

You have not spent much time around children or the mentally disabled. They are capable of very close relationships with God.

They wouldn’t even know about this God unless their care giver / parents told them about the God in question.

Should a Hindu raise them, they’d be just as close to Braham.

 

[kage_ar]

One of your fellow Catholics said;

I say;

God knows whose going to be disabled or diseased, God has the power to fix the issue, God permits the disability / disease, God chooses that he will not fix the disability / disease.

Where’s the misunderstanding?

For those who die in friendship with God, He will cure every disability and disease, when we are resurrected at the end of time.

 

[Masters_Servant]

If a woman is born without a uterus and as a result can’t have children how much was God involved in her unfortunate state? Does he actively decide, “That woman shall have no uterus,” or does he just allow these things just happen?

The thing is I don’t want to believe in a god that knowingly/deliberately allows people to have handicaps.

If he didn’t know that someone was going to be born with a handicap and just lets nature take its course then for me all that stuff people are given about how their handicap is a test for them or their parents is nonsense.

If God didn’t know someone was going to be handicapped how can he have intended the handicap - the handicap he didn’t know about - to be a test?

It is the result of sin; not her sin, but the curse on the whole creation as it moans for the revealing of the Sons of God according to Scripture. God is the God of perfection and sin has stained the entire creation, but God is not the author of sin, but He did allow sin to enter the world. Why? Because by sin He can display HIs attributes of the God of love and of Mercy and of Justice fr his glory.

Remember the disciples asked Jesus why the man was blind and they said was it his sins or his parents sin? The Jews taught that people were this way because of their sin. What was Jesus answer to His disciples

John 9:1-3 1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?” 3 Jesus answered, "{It was} neither {that} this man sinned, nor his parents; but {it was} so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

 

[Zatzat]

For those who die in friendship with God, He will cure every disability and disease, when we are resurrected at the end of time.

Those who’re not, do they keep their diseases and disabilities? I ask, as I thought it was Christian belief that the body dies, the spirit lives.

If the spirit lives, and there isn’t a diseased body, what’s their for God to cure or heal? The disease / disability died with the body.

 

[kage_ar]

Those who’re not, do they keep their diseases and disabilities? I ask, as I thought it was Christian belief that the body dies, the spirit lives.

If the spirit lives, and there isn’t a diseased body, what’s their for God to cure or heal? The disease / disability died with the body.

Those who die in friendship with Christ, their soul goes to Purgatory and/or Heaven. Their body will be resurrected at the end of time, healed and shiny and glorified and be re-joined with the soul to live forever with Christ.

 

[Yorkshireman]

From Communion and Stewardship:
Human Persons Created in the Image of God

(The July 2004 Vatican Statement on Creation and Evolution)
While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5-4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. bringyou.to/apologetics/p80.htm

1ke are you there? I didn’t say Pope Benedict doesn’t believe in Original Sin. I just said it doesn’t fit with his view that science “virtually certain[ly]” explains where our species came from (see above Vatican statement). Our species developed through the passing on from generation to generation of random mutations. Random mutations explain things like someone born with no feet. It’s not original sin.

You can’t say we developed through random mutations (often not helpful ones) and at the same time espouse the concept of original sin. Not for me anyway.

 

[andyandely1997]

One of your fellow Catholics said;

I say;

God knows whose going to be disabled or diseased, God has the power to fix the issue, God permits the disability / disease, God chooses that he will not fix the disability / disease.

Where’s the misunderstanding?

God also brings good out of everything & curing every disability/disease may be good in our eyes, but not in the eyes of God. When Christ was hanging on the cross, even Peter did not understand it at the time & did not want Christ to proceed with His passion.

" And Peter taking him, began to rebuke him, saying: Lord, be it far from thee, this shall not be unto thee. Who turning, said to Peter: Go behind me, Satan, thou art a scandal unto me: because thou savourest not the things that are of God, but the things that are of men." (Matthew 16:22-23)

So God permitted the greatest evil in the history of the world with the crucifixion of Christ, but this brought the greastest good, our redemption with the possibility of salvation for all.

 

[Zatzat]

Those who die in friendship with Christ, their soul goes to Purgatory and/or Heaven. Their body will be resurrected at the end of time, healed and shiny and glorified and be re-joined with the soul to live forever with Christ.

If a persons soul goes to heaven, obviously they could not be happier, as heaven is perfection. When jesus does return, say tomorrow or in a thousand years or in 10 million years…why would a perfectly happy person, whose been 100% happy without their body…even care or desire to get their body back…it will add nothing to their eternal existence?

 

[Zatzat]

So God permitted the greatest evil in the history of the world with the crucifixion of Christ, but this brought the greastest good, our redemption with the possibility of salvation for all.

First of all, God needed to have Jesus crucified, as that was the only way an omniscient God could find to forgiver his children…a blood sacrifice.

Second of all, there’s things that happen to people, especially to children that are a whole more Evil than christs crucifixion.

 

[1ke]

1ke are you there? I didn’t say Pope Benedict doesn’t believe in Original Sin. I just said it doesn’t fit with his view that science “virtually certain[ly]” explains where our species came from (see above Vatican statement). Our species developed through the passing on from generation to generation of random mutations. Random mutations explain things like someone born with no feet. It’s not original sin.

You can’t say we developed through random mutations (often not helpful ones) and at the same time espouse the concept of original sin. Not for me anyway.

Our first parents could have been the product of evolutionary forces, or God could have specially created them while the rest of the world used evolutionary forces. We don’t know. If they were specially created, God could have used matter that was genetically linked to matter already in existence.

It’s really of no consequence either way.

At the point at which our first parents were infused with a spiritual soul, they became persons. They were, now, wholly different than the rest of creation. The rest of living creation has a material soul, not a spiritual soul.

Those first persons-- by virtue of infusion of a spiritual soul-- were given original holiness which included supernatural gift of sanctifying grace and preternatural gifts.

The preternatural gifts are beyond our nature and given by God. These were the pre-fall gifts of natural purity of their bodies, immunity from disease, lordship of creation, and bodily immortality, etc.

The Fall (original sin) changed that. They lost sanctifying grace in their souls and God *withdrew *the preternatural gifts he had given them. They were now like the rest of nature.

It’s not incompatible at all.

See here:
newadvent.org/cathen/06553a.htm

 

[kage_ar]

If a persons soul goes to heaven, obviously they could not be happier, as heaven is perfection. When jesus does return, say tomorrow or in a thousand years or in 10 million years…why would a perfectly happy person, whose been 100% happy without their body…even care or desire to get their body back…it will add nothing to their eternal existence?

Because God thinks it is important, and He is the boss.

 

[Zatzat]

Because God thinks it is important, and He is the boss.

’ because the boss said so’.

I’ve asked a fair question and your response is less than satisfying, as you’ve not even adressed the question.

 

[kage_ar]

’ because the boss said so’.

I’ve asked a fair question and your response is less than satisfying, as you’ve not even adressed the question.

Start here with the section on “The Resurrection”, and if you do not find the answer, we will point you to more resources:

newadvent.org/summa/5.htm

 

[Yorkshireman]

Our first parents could have been the product of evolutionary forces, or God could have specially created them while the rest of the world used evolutionary forces. *We don’t know. *If they were specially created, God could have used matter that was genetically linked to matter already in existence. *

It’s really of no consequence either way. *

At the point at which our first parents were infused with a spiritual soul, they became persons. *They were, now, wholly different than the rest of creation. *The rest of living creation has a material soul, not a spiritual soul.

Those first persons-- by virtue of infusion of a spiritual soul-- were given original holiness which included supernatural gift of sanctifying grace and preternatural gifts. *

The preternatural gifts are beyond our nature and given by God. *These were the pre-fall gifts of natural purity of their bodies, immunity from disease, lordship of creation, and bodily immortality, etc. *

The Fall (original sin) changed that. *They lost sanctifying grace in their souls and God *withdrew *the preternatural gifts he had given them. *They were now like the rest of nature.

It’s not incompatible at all.

See here:
newadvent.org/cathen/06553a.htm

Whatever you speculate about human origins it’s clear what the Vatican statement of 2004 said. All species are descended from the same beginnings of life. “It is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism.”

That process was driven by random mutations. The process explains deformities that for centuries were explained as caused by original sin.

As the church is signed up to Evolution I don’t see any place for traditional teachings of The Fall either. As the church sees humans as being subject to the forces of natural selection the same as all other species there is no room for a perfect period when there was no disease, people lived forever, etc.

The church wants to appear on board with the science but won’t acknowledge that clearly it has ramifications for some traditions.

 

[Zatzat]

Start here with the section on “The Resurrection”, and if you do not find the answer, we will point you to more resources:

newadvent.org/summa/5.htm

I’m intimately familiar with the story of the resurrection. I’m quite certain my question will not be answered by reading from newadvent, else my question would have been answered many years ago.

People are absolutely blissfully happy in heaven. There is nothing that could possibly make heaven any more perfect or the soul any more happy.

Then when Jesus comes back tomorrow or in 10 million years, Christians are to believe that their souls in heaven get their healed bodies back?


Who would care? NOTHING could make a person happier in heaven…seems like a relatively pointless exercise.

…and that is my question…how does that make any sense???

 

[1ke]

Whatever you speculate about human origins it’s clear what the Vatican statement of 2004 said. All species are descended from the same beginnings of life. “It is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism.”

You conveniently stopped your quote leaving out, for example, this from paragraph 64:

In continuity with previous twentieth century papal teaching on evolution (especially Pope Pius XII’s encyclical Humani Generis ), the Holy Father’s [John Paul II’s] message acknowledges that there are “several theories of evolution” that are “materialist, reductionist and spiritualist” and thus incompatible with the Catholic faith.

Humani Generis:

1. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.

That process was driven by random mutations. The process explains deformities that for centuries were explained as caused by original sin.

From the 2004 Vatican document you previously quoted:

In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science. Divine causality can be active in a process that is both contingent and guided. Any evolutionary mechanism that is contingent can only be contingent because God made it so. **An unguided evolutionary process – one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence – simply cannot exist **because “the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles…It necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence”

As the church is signed up to Evolution I don’t see any place for traditional teachings of The Fall either.

The CHuch hasn’t “signed up to Evolution” as you keep insisting. The Church does not reject those aspects of the theory of evolution which concern themselves with the scientific mechanisms by which things came to be.

Certainly evolution might answer “how” but it does not answer “by whom” nor can it speak to our spiritual souls, which are not biological.

Evolution can also neither prove nor disprove the gift of preternatural gifts given to our first parents. A real set of first parents protected from disease by God the creator of all is not incompatible with evolution of life on earth.

As the church sees humans as being subject to the forces of natural selection the same as all other species there

The Church certainly does NOT see human persons in this way. You are projecting onto Church teaching what is not there. In fact, the document you quoted states otherwise.

is no room for a perfect period when there was no disease, people lived forever, etc.

Certainly there is.

The church wants to appear on board with the science but won’t acknowledge that clearly it has ramifications for some traditions.

The Church proclaims the Truth, that is all she can do. When science has something to add to that truth, it can and should be embraced. When science attempts to place limits upon God, deny his existence, or say what God “can’t” do, it is to be soundly rejected.