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grannymh
Guest
God did not introduce suffering, i.e. infectious bacteria, viruses.
God does not hate any human.
Humans are acting out of love for their neighbor in the invention of penicillin.
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God does not hate any human.
Humans are acting out of love for their neighbor in the invention of penicillin.
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GrahamAPhone
Guest
what did that even mean?
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buffalo
Guest
We all suffer and we all die.
Again, atheists always focus on the body. You are missing so much by not including man’s immortal soul.
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lumenorientale
Guest
Please reread my post. I said that God did not bring the suffering. Man did. As for those who lived prior to the 20th century, people did what they could with what they had to alleviate their neighbors’ sufferings. Of course, some chose to misuse their free will to increase other’s suffering. But, be that as it may, as medical science has evolved, we have at our fingertips to use our God given free will to alleviate or diminish the pain of others. I repeat, those who lived prior to the 20th century did what they could with what knowledge they had. Now that our knowledge has increased, we have the choice to use it for ill or for good will.
God gave us free will so that we may be partners, not slaves, in salvation and creation. The question is how we will use this free will.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
No. God did not bring suffering on the world, so you’re making the wrong A-SS-U-mption.
Mankind let suffering into the world.
So why would God be annoyed that we are trying to relieve it?
Can you answer this question? (I doubt it.)
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bpbasilphx
Guest
\And I do believe that it would behoove you to offer an apology to his Grace, Bishop Basil, given that you were perhaps a bit out of line in stating that he would be “outmatched” in an argument with you.\
The very idea of trying to think down to the level of albertball gives me a headache, as Marvin put it.
The very idea of trying to think down to the level of albertball gives me a headache, as Marvin put it.
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AlbertBall
Guest
Well arfe we not defying god be nullifying his punishment?
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Schluns
Guest
- Proofread before posting
- No, we are privileged by God’s graces by accepting is healing, by a physicians hands.
A very devout man’s home is overtaken by flooding. As he sits on the roof a man in a canoe comes by and offers him transport to dry land.
“No, God will save me.” he says.
About an hour later, the water has risen more, a man in a rowboat comes by and offers him a ride. “No, God will save me.” he says.
An hour later, he is standing on his roof, waste deep in the water; a speedboat comes by, and the driver offers him a ride. “No, God will save me.” he says.
The man drowns and meets God in heaven. The man says: “God, why didn’t you save me?”
God replies: “I sent you a canoe, a rowboat and a speedboat and you refused to be saved.”
God is not an angry God, he gave us free will and the tools to lead a good and just life. It is up to us to use the tools he gave us justly. To turn away from this knowledge or to use it in an immoral way, is to turn our backs away from God.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
**Again, you make the wrong A-SS—U—mption.
It was not a punishment, but a warning.
“Baby, don’t stick your finger in the light socket. You’ll hurt yourself.”
So Baby ignores the mother, and sticks a finger in the light socket, and gets a nasty shock.
Was the mother punishing Baby by this shock? Or was it the result of doing something dangerous that Baby would have been spared by listening to the mother, because she was TRYING to keep Baby from getting shocked?
Does that answer your question, albertball?
Not only do I capitalize, I put names worthy of it in legible type.**
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geometer
Guest
The Amish people do without all of those things, I have always loved that about them…
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R_Daneel
Guest
Actually the mother was criminally negligient. If the baby in your example is seriously hurt, or happens to die, the mother is convicted of a crime. The proper course of action in your example is to cover all the electrical outlets to prevent the baby from performing such a dangerous experiment. That is what a loving and responsible mother does, who actually cares about the benefit of her offspring.
Of course this does not apply to the problem at hand. God **cursed **the creation (if one takes the story in a literal fashion), did not just issue a friendly warning. The creation did not get affected directly by the deed, rather the deed triggered the response from God - and that response was a curse. I am not sure if the prohibition of quoting the scriptures still stands, so you will have to go and look it up yourself.
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Schluns
Guest
Not to derail the thread, but this is not entirely true. Depending on the “sect” they may use rubber (tires), plastic coated wires, Paint (latex), cars, vans, buttons (plastic) and electricity (this is arguable to natural). Then we won’t mention the Amish who work in factories and use modern technology. Oh, and use modern health care.
The Amish have also progressed in the last 2000 yrs (when Amish did not exist), although they have kept to late 1800s, early 1900s lifestyle as much as possible.
So while I agree that they lead a much simpler lifestyle than I, they are not exempt from the modern era.
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Fran65
Guest
While we’re clearing up misunderstandings, Christian Science teaches that the only acceptable treatment for any sickness is prayer and that sickness is the direct result of lack of faith. According to her biographers, Mary Baker Eddy, who wrote the book ‘Science and Health’ on which Christian Science was established secretly used modern medicine herself. Would that the Christian Science parents whose child died from untreated diabetes had known that. Tragic.
This also seems to be what the poster now known as AlbertBall advocates. That way the outcome is God’s will.
This also seems to be what the poster now known as AlbertBall advocates. That way the outcome is God’s will.
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AlbertBall
Guest
My sincere apologies to him i tend to get carried away sometimes, however i don’t think your headache is from thinking downward
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AlbertBall
Guest
Yes this is what i was getting at.
I was under the impression that there was no death before the fall, and that death and suffering were brought into the world by god after adam ate the apple.
I was mearly asking a question, if i am incorrect i am more than happy to concede the point and move on.
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Fran65
Guest
You appear to ignore the fact that God has given us the ability to reason and to develop our knowledge and understanding. Just as we can reason our way to God (if we have a mind to ); we can also reason our way to overcoming much of the suffering in the world. It’s like giving a child a set of tools to stay safe and find her way home.
R Daneel, a child raised in a padded cell without exposure to risk is one that will have significant developmental delay and deformity in body and mind. What sort of a parent would want that?
); we can also reason our way to overcoming much of the suffering in the world. It’s like giving a child a set of tools to stay safe and find her way home.R Daneel, a child raised in a padded cell without exposure to risk is one that will have significant developmental delay and deformity in body and mind. What sort of a parent would want that?
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R_Daneel
Guest
I am steadily losing hope to have an intellectually honest exchange of ideas. Seems that people are unwilling or unable to comprehend what I am saying.
There is a bit of difference to expose a child to certain amount of carefully supervised “danger” with the explicit intention of teaching a child what to avoid, and your “padded cell” or negligiently place that child into mortal danger. One does not expose a child to possibly lethal circumstances and later attempts to defend this with the ridiculous “but I told him not to do it…” type of nonsense. I suggest you go back to the post I was responding to and follow the links backwards.
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Fran65
Guest
Are you suggesting that God should not respect our own ability to choose and to use our rational abilities? We are children in respect to our relationship with God, but we are adults in our knowledge, our ability to learn and our ability to make an informed choice. If you are also asking about natural suffering then there are many, many previous threads on that topic. You have probably participated in those discussions before, and I’m guessing that your mind is already made up. In which case why ask?
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AlbertBall
Guest
So god brought illness into the world, and then gave us the ability to develop methods of fighting those illnesses?You appear to ignore the fact that God has given us the ability to reason and to develop our knowledge and understanding. Just as we can reason our way to God (if we have a mind to
R Daneel, a child raised in a padded cell without exposure to risk is one that will have significant developmental delay and deformity in body and mind. What sort of a parent would want that?
I’m not meaning to be awkward, i really don’t get it. To be honest i really don’t get the hole concept of original sin. If the fall is punishment… “Cursed is the ground because of you” then would it not be going against god to fight the curse?
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buffalo
Guest
Sin was not part of God’s plan. Man introduced sin into the world. God 's saving plan was to send His son to suffer and die for mankind’s sake. By treating the sick and infirm we are being compassionate to help alleviate suffering. We will still die.
Now in some ways alleviating suffering may not be so good for the soul. Suffering purifies the soul and Catholics understand suffering to be redemptive. Christ Himself healed the physically, mentally and spiritually sick. We follow His example.
THE SACRAMENTS OF HEALING
1420 Through the sacraments of Christian initiation, man receives the new life of Christ. Now we carry this life “in earthen vessels,” and it remains "hidden with Christ in God."1 We are still in our “earthly tent,” subject to suffering, illness, and death.2 This new life as a child of God can be weakened and even lost by sin.
1421 The Lord Jesus Christ, physician of our souls and bodies, who forgave the sins of the paralytic and restored him to bodily health,3 has willed that his Church continue, in the power of the Holy Spirit, his work of healing and salvation, even among her own members. This is the purpose of the two sacraments of healing: the sacrament of Penance and the sacrament of Anointing of the Sick.
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