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Linusthe2nd
Guest
Since God is all Good, he cannot choose evil, he cannot do anything contrary to his nature. But since he knows all things, he knows what evil is.
Linus2nd
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Linus2nd
F
fhansen
Guest
No, he allowed the fall, a natural consequence of which was to know good and evil. The fall was foreknown and utilized, not caused or set up.
Um, because we’re not God? Only God can be God. And the very original sin which sent man reeling into a world where good and evil are known was the act of man seeking to usurp God’s godhood-for himself.
C
Counterpoint
Guest
Then why is it possible for human beings to act contrary to their nature?
T
tonyrey
Guest
We have supernatural power demonstrated by our ability to overcome our impulses, instincts, habits, vices, prejudices and temptations.
C
Counterpoint
Guest
Well, if Adam and Eve didn’t know the difference between good and evil before the fall, then why did God hold them responsible for the fall?
T
tonyrey
Guest
We don’t know to what extent they were responsible for their mistake. They certainly didn’t realise the full significance of evil and its repercussions on others. We don’t even know what they did but it must have been a serious offence given that it has culminated in the bloodstained history of humanity.
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fhansen
Guest
First of all, God didn’t hold them so accountable for the fall as to annihilate them for their disobedience. If that would be the case there’d be no reason to create them at all. He held them to a great degree of accountability, however, but still having made them in a “state of journeying to perfection”, as the Catechism puts it, utilizing their rebellion and the evil it ushered in, endeavoring to make a really good lemonade out of the lemons produced by the abuse of free will. We have to understand, in any case, that man is quite radically free, free enough to, again, abuse his freedom.
T
tonyrey
Guest
Irrefutable. To deny free will is to deny the reality of evil.
L
Linusthe2nd
Guest
B
Bahman
Guest
Sure, my pleasure.
That I understand. But you have to change the question slightly to make a good match between your question and his question namely, can God create a being that s/he is able to do something that God cannot do? If the answer is yes, then the creation has to be neutral namely, a mix of good and evil to allows both to occur in the same time doesn’t bias our being and action. Do you agree with this statement? Yes, then how God could perform evil in creation since creating something which is only good bias our being and our experience since there is neither tendency nor possibility for us to perform evil. So the dilemma is unresolved unless you accept that God is neutral which is crucial for a being who is seizing the chair of justice.
B
Bahman
Guest
And how Adam and Eve could do sin?
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
Although they were free from concupisence of the flesh, their nature was not perfectly good as is the case with God. And God allowed them to prove their love for him through perfect obedience. So when Satan approached them intellectually they decided they wanted to be like God, which was a great sin, the same kind of sin committed by Satan and his followers. They failed the test and God punished them by taking away all their preternatural gifts and causing them to suffer death.
That is the best I can do by way of explaination.
Linus2nd
F
fhansen
Guest
Because they weren’t God. They needed communion with Him in order to remain free from sin, in order to retain their integrity. This is how we’re made-to have union with God, apart from Whom we can do nothing. But He wouldn’t force us to do so. We’re here now to gain the wisdom to do just that, to learn how undeniable is our need for God.
B
Bahman
Guest
So God didn’t create them good, knowing the fact that this imperfection will cause them fall?
F
fhansen
Guest
He created them good-He just didn’t create another God.
B
Bahman
Guest
And they were allowed to do evil? Your answer is yes. How they could possibly distinguish between good and evil? They were created good so how they could comprehend that eating the forbidden fruit is evil?
F
fhansen
Guest
Human beings are so free that they have the ability to consciously recognize their own limitations-and subjugate themselves to the “Unlimited”-in order to retain justice/order within themselves. Or not. That’s the part we play in our justification now-as well as that which Adam played in his justification, in his retaining justice-back in Eden.
Humans have a perfection proper to their own natures-and yet they’re imperfect relative to God, who alone is perfect. Creation’s perfection/righteousness* comes from and is dependent* on Him-and is retained only to the degree that it remains in Him. Angels and men have the unique ability to depart from His control, and therefore from the perfection they were created for.
And yet God knew that the fall would happen, of course, and deemed that it would be good if creation ‘journeyed to perfection’, to their true justice, as they learned to turn back and subjugate themselves to Him again, one at a time, having learned of the perfection of His will, not without His help, not without grace since any being is incapable of recognizing that which is more perfect than itself. We choose whether to accept, enter, and remain in that grace.
Humans have a perfection proper to their own natures-and yet they’re imperfect relative to God, who alone is perfect. Creation’s perfection/righteousness* comes from and is dependent* on Him-and is retained only to the degree that it remains in Him. Angels and men have the unique ability to depart from His control, and therefore from the perfection they were created for.
And yet God knew that the fall would happen, of course, and deemed that it would be good if creation ‘journeyed to perfection’, to their true justice, as they learned to turn back and subjugate themselves to Him again, one at a time, having learned of the perfection of His will, not without His help, not without grace since any being is incapable of recognizing that which is more perfect than itself. We choose whether to accept, enter, and remain in that grace.
K
KingCoil
Guest
K
KingCoil
Guest
I have not interacted with Centerpoint until at present, but he reminds me of atheists who are into grotesque arguments against the existence of God. and it is seen in his presentation.
You see, someone says that we should attend to the post of a member instead of to his person.
That seems sensible but how can you make out what the member is saying unless you take into account how he thinks and writes, namely, attend to his person, to the presentation of his words – the words of a person is an extension of the person: is he a person who thinks logically and with focus and writes accordingly, or not?
KingCoil
You see, someone says that we should attend to the post of a member instead of to his person.
That seems sensible but how can you make out what the member is saying unless you take into account how he thinks and writes, namely, attend to his person, to the presentation of his words – the words of a person is an extension of the person: is he a person who thinks logically and with focus and writes accordingly, or not?
KingCoil
B
Bahman
Guest
I cannot judge him as I don’t know him personally. The questions that he is posing is in my opinion however subject of discussion. I don’t know what he has in mind but what he is arguing is similar to what I have discussed in this forum long time ago.
I am sure that we both could agree that good and evil are subjective. In another word, there is no objective reality that is good or evil, ugly or beautiful, sad or happy. It is matter of how they appear to us as indifferent concepts. It is duty of intellect to categorize this set of concept to good, what please you, and bad, what displease you. One of the main question is where this sense of distinction come from? It is part of our instinct. What is pleasant to a person however could be displeasing to another person depending on how the intellect is trained and which kind of person s/he is. These are however the main ingredient of being granted by God to make sure that life keeps going.
By now, I think we could agree that evil and good are just subjective and person dependent meaning that it depend on what please you or displease you. We can change the definition of good and evil depending on a person but we cannot get ride of the fact that the pleasure is what we would like to achieve and displeasure is what we would like to avoid. Regardless, this two sense we cannot avoid and I believe it apply to everything including God.
The main questions then are:
- Is there anything displeasing to God if God is only good?
- How God could then create something which could be displeasing to him being an omniscience? He knows in advance the outcome of creation.
- What is really free will and how it could lead to an evil action if we assume that God is good hence creation must be good? This question I think it is the focal point of OP, namely if creation is good then everything should be pleasant to individuals otherwise it is evil too which is contrary to what we assume.
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