Does God intend man to become gods?

[mikekle]

This title may be confusing, not sure where, but I believe the bible mentions something along the lines of mankind becoming God-like, or men becoming gods.

I only ask about this after reading another thread on here about dinosaurs, and how scientists are getting close to be able to create extinct species, and many scientists think within the next 100 or so years, bringing back dinosaurs will be possible, they are pretty close today, but still not quite there technologically.

Further more, last week, I was watching the news, and they were doing a story on a doctor/scientist who is working on somehow transferring someones ‘essence’ or conscience to a type of computer, they are doing this by learning more and more about how our brains work. The people involved in this said eventually they will be able to transfer someones essence or self, to a computer or mechanical body, I know it sounds crazy, but apparently its not that far off.

This made me wonder, if at some point in the future, even if its 500 yrs, what would happen if mankind were able to do this and someone who is getting old, they could just transfer themselves to another body, therefore defeating death. The only reason we die is because our bodies wear out within 80 yrs for most, but if science could transfer the person to another ‘body’, would this not stop their death?

This is hypothetical of course, but I realize scientists are currently working on this and probably will reach this ability at some point in the future, it appears that mankind will have become just like a god, as being able to control death, or even prevent it.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I hear that “God became Man that Man might become God”, but it isn’t as literal as it sounds.
I also heard that our destiny, in the end, is at the center of the Trinity, to share in God’s divinity.
Again, not as literal as it sounds. It’s more like being perfected in Christ, entering into union with God.

We will not become Gods like the Mormons believe, we will not be “all powerful”, have our own worlds and people who worship us, no no.

If someone much smarter than me can expand on that please!

 

[Robyn_p]

No, its even better than being turned into robotic avatars. That’s not what is meant by the phrase by St Athanasius, “The Son of God became Man, so that man might become God.”

Rather it means we become by grace what Christ is by nature. We become, through baptism, which incorporates us into Christ, “partakers of the Divine nature.” (2 Pet 1:4) and we receive the spirit of adoption in us by which we can now say to God, “Abba, Father!” (Galatians 4:1-4) We receive sanctifying grace, the divine life of God, and now have access to heaven.

This is an oversimplification of a deep beautiful theology called “Theosis” in the east, and I know I didn’t really capture the pure awesomeness of it. God, the infinite perfect being, wants to share his life, perfect joy and life and love, with us who can’t add or give anything to Him, just because He loves us. He gives us, who are just dust, the power to call Him Father and be in an actual relationship with Him. So awesome!

Anyway, eventually, at the end of time, we will receive our bodies back, and death will be eliminated. But it won’t be on this miserable rock where we’ll live forever, but on the new heaven and new earth. Where God will dwell with his people, and evil has no more say.

 

[Jozefo]

This title may be confusing, not sure where, but I believe the bible mentions something along the lines of mankind becoming God-like, or men becoming gods.

I only ask about this after reading another thread on here about dinosaurs, and how scientists are getting close to be able to create extinct species, and many scientists think within the next 100 or so years, bringing back dinosaurs will be possible, they are pretty close today, but still not quite there technologically.

Further more, last week, I was watching the news, and they were doing a story on a doctor/scientist who is working on somehow transferring someones ‘essence’ or conscience to a type of computer, they are doing this by learning more and more about how our brains work. The people involved in this said eventually they will be able to transfer someones essence or self, to a computer or mechanical body, I know it sounds crazy, but apparently its not that far off.

This made me wonder, if at some point in the future, even if its 500 yrs, what would happen if mankind were able to do this and someone who is getting old, they could just transfer themselves to another body, therefore defeating death. The only reason we die is because our bodies wear out within 80 yrs for most, but if science could transfer the person to another ‘body’, would this not stop their death?

This is hypothetical of course, but I realize scientists are currently working on this and probably will reach this ability at some point in the future, it appears that mankind will have become just like a god, as being able to control death, or even prevent it.

You’ve stumbled on the deepest question humanity can ask, in my opinion. If mankind becomes just like God in every way, then his doom is sealed, because God created everything first.

 

[McCall1981]

If we did those things we wouldn’t actually be “like God”, we would be essentially a corrupted imitation of God. It would be us trying (unsuccessfully) to once again put ourselves in the place of God, which is what we’re doing all the time anyway. The root of all sin is trying to put ourselves in the place of God, it goes back to Genesis (eat this and you will be as gods), so doing these things would just be another example of committing the oldest sin in the newest way.

Keep in mind too that the anti-christ is suppossed to imitate God, do “signs and wonders” and convince a lot of people that he is God or that we humans are like God.

 

[katy]

I don’t have time to track it down, but I just read something like that in one of the epistles. and it has to do with the theosis idea. I wish I had taken a note.

 

[mikekle]

If mankind did reach the technological ability to prevent people from dying and entering into the afterlife, via use of ‘avatars’ or some other kind of method, does anyone think God would step in and stop this from happening?

It is amazing scientists are even talking seriously about such a topic in modern times, and even though we dont have this ability now, it is pretty much a given, eventually mankind will develop such technologies, and likely other things we cant even begin to imagine today.

Im not saying its right or wrong, just saying this will happen at some point, unless God directly intervenes, which I highly doubt, as he has not done so in the past with any kind of technology breakthroughs.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

This title may be confusing, not sure where, but I believe the bible mentions something along the lines of mankind becoming God-like, or men becoming gods.

I only ask about this after reading another thread on here about dinosaurs, and how scientists are getting close to be able to create extinct species, and many scientists think within the next 100 or so years, bringing back dinosaurs will be possible, they are pretty close today, but still not quite there technologically.

Further more, last week, I was watching the news, and they were doing a story on a doctor/scientist who is working on somehow transferring someones ‘essence’ or conscience to a type of computer, they are doing this by learning more and more about how our brains work. The people involved in this said eventually they will be able to transfer someones essence or self, to a computer or mechanical body, I know it sounds crazy, but apparently its not that far off.

This made me wonder, if at some point in the future, even if its 500 yrs, what would happen if mankind were able to do this and someone who is getting old, they could just transfer themselves to another body, therefore defeating death. The only reason we die is because our bodies wear out within 80 yrs for most, but if science could transfer the person to another ‘body’, would this not stop their death?

This is hypothetical of course, but I realize scientists are currently working on this and probably will reach this ability at some point in the future, it appears that mankind will have become just like a god, as being able to control death, or even prevent it.

No, men will never be Gods, not even in Heaven. That is a heretical notion of the Mormons and maybe some others.

As far as transplanting heads go, you should read, " That Hiddious Strength " by C.S. Lewis ( part of a very interesting SiFi, mystical, Trilogy, funny and scary). Nothing bad in it, will hold your attention.

Linus2nd

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Mormons and others who maintain the heretical notion that men become god’s, try to dispense with a slight of hand the fact that God is One God. So to become a god we can never be separated from God. Their reasoning comes from the fact that they either refuse to or are incapable of grasping the concept of the hypostatic union.
Our journey from man to God is one with the hypostatic union which is how God became man.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Man is said to be deified by the Church Fathers because through grace, man comes to participate in the attributes of God, without coming to participate in the aseity of God. This is why St. Maximus the Confessor defines theosis as the process of becoming all that God is except what He is in essence. In this sense, the terminology of theosis (man becoming God, or man being deified) is not figurative, but literal, for man does not become merely like God, but man becomes God through an identity of operation and attributes, but remains distinct according to hypostasis (person) and nature.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Man is said to be deified by the Church Fathers because through grace, man comes to participate in the attributes of God, without coming to participate in the aseity of God. This is why St. Maximus the Confessor defines theosis as the process of becoming all that God is except what He is in essence. In this sense, the terminology of theosis (man becoming God, or man being deified) is not figurative, but literal, for man does not become merely like God, but man becomes God through an identity of operation and attributes, but remains distinct according to hypostasis (person) and nature.

You are giving a personal interpretation of the Saints words, if indeed he ever uttered them. Man never becomes God. This is against the constant teaching of the Holy Catholic Church. And I do not for a minute think that the Orthodox Church holds such a position. I admit that certain overly exuberant mystical expressions on the part of some mystics may give such an impression, but these are not to be literally construed.

Linus2nd

 

[Gorgias]

You are giving a personal interpretation of the Saints words, if indeed he ever uttered them. Man never becomes God. This is against the constant teaching of the Holy Catholic Church. And I do not for a minute think that the Orthodox Church holds such a position. I admit that certain overly exuberant mystical expressions on the part of some mystics may give such an impression, but these are not to be literally construed.

From the Catechism:

WHY DID THE WORD BECOME FLESH?

456 With the Nicene Creed, we answer by confessing: “For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit, he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and was made man.”

457 The Word became flesh for us in order to save us by reconciling us with God…

458 The Word became flesh so that thus we might know God’s love…

459 The Word became flesh to be our model of holiness…

460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.”[sup]80[/sup] “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”[sup]81[/sup]

Footnote 80 reads “St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3: PG 25, 192B.”
Footnote 81 reads “St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4.”

I would hardly say that Aquinas was a ‘mystic’ or that he and the Catechism are “not to be literally construed.” However, you make a good point: some, seeing this statement and only looking at it on its surface, may find it objectionable. To these, we answer: no, we don’t become God, per se; rather, we gain a share in God’s divinity.

 

[Cavaradossi]

You are giving a personal interpretation of the Saints words, if indeed he ever uttered them. Man never becomes God. This is against the constant teaching of the Holy Catholic Church. And I do not for a minute think that the Orthodox Church holds such a position. I admit that certain overly exuberant mystical expressions on the part of some mystics may give such an impression, but these are not to be literally construed.

To be quite frank, you are wrong. Deification (Theosis) through participation in the uncreated energies (which are identical with the attributes) of God is a central soteriological tenet of the Eastern Fathers, and remains a central soteriological tenet of Orthodoxy. We are deified in that we come to partake of God’s goodness, power, holiness, etc., and in this sense, we truly become God, or as St. Peter put it, partakers of the divine nature. But, as I remarked before, we do not become God by essence, insofar as we come to participate in the attributes of God only as a grace, and not in the sense that we appropriate them by nature (for then our nature would become divine, an impossibility), which is to say that we have not aseity, which belongs to God alone.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

From the Catechism:

Footnote 80 reads “St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3: PG 25, 192B.”
Footnote 81 reads “St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4.”

I would hardly say that Aquinas was a ‘mystic’ or that he and the Catechism are “not to be literally construed.” However, you make a good point: some, seeing this statement and only looking at it on its surface, may find it objectionable. To these, we answer: no, we don’t become God, per se; rather, we gain a share in God’s divinity.

Yes, I was aware of these quotes. However, they are not to be interpreted literally. We will never become God ( or little god either ). We will be who we were when we died but we will be embraced and infused by God’s love - as adopted sons are embrace by the love of there adoptive Father. Unfortunately, some even who teach classes on the Catechism repeat these sentiments without clarification - which set my teeth on edge. People are so easily led astray it is unbelieveable.

Such utterences, even by Saints, must be interpreted Mystically, not literally, not in any ontological sense. No matter our elevated state before the Beatific Vision, we will be who we always were, and God will be Who He has ever been and the two will not be mixed in any ontological sense. And by this comment I do not intend any disparagment to any Saint, East or West. Though one would have wished that they would have exercised more circumspection in their utterences and writings.

Linus2nd

 

[Gorgias]

Yes, I was aware of these quotes. However, they are not to be interpreted literally.

Linus,

Perhaps you have a citation, from a magisterial source, that supports your claim?

Thanks!

No matter our elevated state before the Beatific Vision, we will be who we always were, and God will be Who He has ever been and the two will not be mixed in any ontological sense.

Ahh… now, you’re starting to make sense! OK… so, even though – ontologically – I’ll always be Gorgias, does this necessarily imply that the statements on theosis are to be taken metaphorically? Isn’t it possible that I may become a sharer in God’s divinity – literally – although not ontologically?

 

[Cavaradossi]

Ahh… now, you’re starting to make sense! OK… so, even though – ontologically – I’ll always be Gorgias, does this necessarily imply that the statements on theosis are to be taken metaphorically? Isn’t it possible that I may become a sharer in God’s divinity – literally – although not ontologically?

Yes, according to the teachings of multitudes of the Fathers, if one leads a holy life, he will become a sharer of God’s divinity, and not merely in some “mystical” sense, but in the sense that he will take upon himself the attributes of God. I think the fathers speak for themselves:

“When we have come to know the true God, both our bodies and our souls will be immortal and incorruptible. We shall enter the kingdom of heaven, because while we lived on earth we acknowledged heaven’s King. Friends of God and coheirs with Christ, we shall be subject to no evil desires or inclinations, or to any affliction of body or soul, for we shall have become divine. It was because of our human condition that God allowed us to endure these things, but when we have been deified and made immortal, God has promised us a share in his own attributes.”

St. Hippolytus. On the Refutation of All Heresies.

“It was God alone Who could become something other than before, and yet not cease to be what He had ever been; Who could shrink within the limits of womb, cradle, and infancy, yet not depart from the power of God. This is a mystery, not for Himself, but for us. The assumption of our nature was no advancement for God, but His willingness to lower Himself is our promotion, for He did not resign His divinity but conferred divinity on man.”

St. Hilary of Poitiers. De Trinitate IX, 4.

“The Incarnation is summed up in this, that the whole Son, that is, His manhood as well as His divinity, was permitted by the Father’s gracious favor to continue in the unity of the Father’s nature, and retained not only the powers of the divine nature, but also that nature’s self. For the object to be gained was that man might become God.”

St. Hilary of Poitiers. De Trinitate IX, 38.

“The Word says, mentioning His own gift of grace: “I said, You are all sons of the Highest, and gods; but you shall die like men.” He speaks undoubtedly these words to those who have not received the gift of adoption, but who despise the incarnation of the pure generation of the Word of God, defraud human nature of promotion into God, and prove themselves ungrateful to the Word of God, who became flesh for them. For it was for this end that the Word of God was made man, and He who was the Son of God became the Son of man, that man, having been taken into the Word, and receiving the adoption, might become the son of God. For by no other means could we have attained to incorruptibility and immortality, unless we had been united to incorruptibility and immortality. But how could we be joined to incorruptibility and immortality, unless, first, incorruptibility and immortality had become that which we also are, so that the corruptible might be swallowed up by incorruptibility, and the mortal by immortality, that we might receive the adoption of sons.”

St. Irenaeus. Adversus Haereses III, 19.

“As the Lord, putting on the body, became man, so we men are deified by the Word as being taken to Him through His flesh, and henceforward inherit life everlasting.”

St. Athanasius. Orationes contra Arianos III, 34.

“From the Spirit comes foreknowledge of the future, understanding of the mysteries of faith, insight into the hidden meaning of Scripture, and other special gifts. Through the Spirit we become citizens of heaven, we are admitted to the company of the angels, we enter into eternal happiness, and abide in God. Through the Spirit we acquire a likeness to God; indeed, we attain what is beyond our most sublime aspirations – we become God.”

St. Basil. On the Holy Spirit IX.

“Even now, as man, Christ makes intercession for my salvation, for He still possesses the body which He assumed in order to make me God by virtue of His Incarnation.”

St. Gregory of Nazianzus. Fourth Theological Oration.

“Man, however, being endowed with reason and free will, received the power of continuous union with God through his own choice, if indeed he should abide in goodness, that is in obedience to his Maker. Since, however, he transgressed the command of his Creator and became liable to death and corruption, the Creator and Maker of our race, because of His bowels of compassion, took on our likeness, becoming man in all things but without sin, and was united to our nature. For since He bestowed on us His own image and His own spirit and we did not keep them safe, He took Himself a share in our poor and weak nature, in order that He might cleanse us and make us incorruptible, and establish us once more as partakers of His divinity.”

St. John of Damascus. Exposition on the Orthodox Faith IV, 13.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Yes, I was aware of these quotes. However, they are not to be interpreted literally. We will never become God ( or little god either ).

That contradicts St. Augustine, who writes in his interpretation of the fiftieth psalm:

But then who are those gods, or where are they, of whom God is the true God? Another Psalm saith, “God hath stood in the synagogue of gods, but in the midst He judgeth gods.” As yet we know not whether perchance any gods be congregated in heaven, and in their congregation, for this is “in the synagogue,” God hath stood to judge. See in the same Psalm those to whom he saith, “I have said, Ye are gods, and children of the Highest all; but ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.” It is evident then, that He hath called men gods, that are deified of His Grace, not born of His Substance. For He doth justify, who is just through His own self, and not of another; and He doth deify who is God through Himself, not by the partaking of another. But He that justifieth doth Himself deify, in that by justifying He doth make sons of God. “For He hath given them power to become the sons of God.” If we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods: but this is the effect of Grace adopting, not of nature generating. For the only Son of God, God, and one God with the Father, Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, was in the beginning the Word, and the Word with God, the Word God. The rest that are made gods, are made by His own Grace, are not born of His Substance, that they should be the same as He, but that by favour they should come to Him, and be fellow-heirs with Christ. For so great is the love in Him the Heir, that He hath willed to have fellow-heirs.

St. Augustine clearly understands that if by grace and filial adoption we are made into sons of God, then we have also been made “gods,” according to the words of the Psalmist. But, perhaps one will object, saying that phrases like partaking of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) and becoming god (a phrase used by many fathers, both East and West) should be interpreted mystically or spiritually, as in the objection below:

We will be who we were when we died but we will be embraced and infused by God’s love - as adopted sons are embrace by the love of there adoptive Father. Unfortunately, some even who teach classes on the Catechism repeat these sentiments without clarification - which set my teeth on edge. People are so easily led astray it is unbelieveable.

Such utterences, even by Saints, must be interpreted Mystically, not literally, not in any ontological sense. No matter our elevated state before the Beatific Vision, we will be who we always were, and God will be Who He has ever been and the two will not be mixed in any ontological sense. And by this comment I do not intend any disparagment to any Saint, East or West. Though one would have wished that they would have exercised more circumspection in their utterences and writings.

But the fathers made it rather clear that they did not mean this only as a mystic figure or as a metaphor for filial adoption, but in a literal sense, for as St. Hippolytus taught, we are deified because God has promised us a share of his attributes. St. Maximus the confessor echoes this sentiment when he writes in Ad Thalassium 22:

“The man divinized by grace will be everything that God is, apart from identity of essence."

And St. John of Damascus too teaches in unity with Ss. Hippolytus and Maximus that man will become divine by participating in God’s divine illumination (which in the terminology of the Greek Fathers refers to His eternal glory and power, the presence of the multitude of God’s attributes), but without being transformed into what God is by substance, he writes in the Exposition on the Orthodox Faith II, 12:He made him [man] a living being to be governed here according to this present life, and then to be removed elsewhere, that is, to the world to come, and so to complete the mystery by becoming divine through reversion to God—this, however, not by being transformed into the divine substance, but by participation in the divine illumination.

You are right to say that it is not ontological, because nobody has ever taught that we shall become what God is in substance, but you are incorrect to say that it is not meant to be taken literally, because the fathers unanimously taught that we shall come to share in the attributes of God (i.e., we shall become immortal, good, just, incorruptible, etc., just as God is), which is why St. Maximus the Confessor defined theosis as being everything that God is, apart from identity in essence.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

That contradicts St. Augustine, who writes in his interpretation of the fiftieth psalm:

But then who are those gods, or where are they, of whom God is the true God? Another Psalm saith, “God hath stood in the synagogue of gods, but in the midst He judgeth gods.” As yet we know not whether perchance any gods be congregated in heaven, and in their congregation, for this is “in the synagogue,” God hath stood to judge. See in the same Psalm those to whom he saith, “I have said, Ye are gods, and children of the Highest all; but ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.” It is evident then, that He hath called men gods, that are deified of His Grace, not born of His Substance. For He doth justify, who is just through His own self, and not of another; and He doth deify who is God through Himself, not by the partaking of another. But He that justifieth doth Himself deify, in that by justifying He doth make sons of God. “For He hath given them power to become the sons of God.” If we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods: but this is the effect of Grace adopting, not of nature generating. For the only Son of God, God, and one God with the Father, Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, was in the beginning the Word, and the Word with God, the Word God. The rest that are made gods, are made by His own Grace, are not born of His Substance, that they should be the same as He, but that by favour they should come to Him, and be fellow-heirs with Christ. For so great is the love in Him the Heir, that He hath willed to have fellow-heirs.

St. Augustine clearly understands that if by grace and filial adoption we are made into sons of God, then we have also been made “gods,” according to the words of the Psalmist. But, perhaps one will object, saying that phrases like partaking of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) and becoming god (a phrase used by many fathers, both East and West) should be interpreted mystically or spiritually, as in the objection below:

But the fathers made it rather clear that they did not mean this only as a mystic figure or as a metaphor for filial adoption, but in a literal sense, for as St. Hippolytus taught, we are deified because God has promised us a share of his attributes. St. Maximus the confessor echoes this sentiment when he writes in Ad Thalassium 22:

“The man divinized by grace will be everything that God is, apart from identity of essence."

And St. John of Damascus too teaches in unity with Ss. Hippolytus and Maximus that man will become divine by participating in God’s divine illumination (which in the terminology of the Greek Fathers refers to His eternal glory and power, the presence of the multitude of God’s attributes), but without being transformed into what God is by substance, he writes in the Exposition on the Orthodox Faith II, 12:He made him [man] a living being to be governed here according to this present life, and then to be removed elsewhere, that is, to the world to come, and so to complete the mystery by becoming divine through reversion to God—this, however, not by being transformed into the divine substance, but by participation in the divine illumination.

You are right to say that it is not ontological, because nobody has ever taught that we shall become what God is in substance, but you are incorrect to say that it is not meant to be taken literally, because the fathers unanimously taught that we shall come to share in the attributes of God (i.e., we shall become immortal, good, just, incorruptible, etc., just as God is), which is why St. Maximus the Confessor defined theosis as being everything that God is, apart from identity in essence.

As I have said, mystical thoughts, aspirations are not to be taken literally in all instances. No matter how expressed, we will never become God or a part of God. We will become as perfect a reflection of the Divine as our individual condition will permit, but that simpley means we will become reflections of the Divine perfection. This means we will be much more perfect than we are now. Still, we will not become God.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Linus,

Perhaps you have a citation, from a magisterial source, that supports your claim?

Thanks!

Ahh… now, you’re starting to make sense! OK… so, even though – ontologically – I’ll always be Gorgias, does this necessarily imply that the statements on theosis are to be taken metaphorically? Isn’t it possible that I may become a sharer in God’s divinity – literally – although not ontologically?

To become a sharer in the Divinity simply means that we will reflect the Divine as perfectly as possible, according for our individual merits.

Thus. As I have said, mystical thoughts, aspirations are not to be taken literally in all instances. No matter how expressed, we will never become God or a part of God. We will become as perfect a reflection of the Divine as our individual condition will permit, but that simpley means we will become reflections of the Divine perfection. This means we will be much more perfect than we are now. Still, we will not become God.

Linus2nd

 

[Gorgias]

Thus. As I have said, mystical thoughts, aspirations are not to be taken literally in all instances.

Yes. As you have said.

Do you have anything with magisterial weight, though, that supports your statement, “don’t take this paragraph from the catechism literally”…?

Thanks!

G.