Does God intervene?

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NoelFitz said:
ss22 #50

Marriage is off-topic as the focus of this thread as in my first post.

*God wants me to go to heaven, he is all powerful, yet does he let me be damned for all eternity? Does God look on and say you have free will, I will not interfere, but I will give you grace and a guardian angel and after that it is up to you.

To me a merciful all-powerful creator allowing me to go to hell seems difficult to grasp.
If God is loving and all powerful how can anyone suffer in torments for ever?*
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I explained that, but you don’t seem to want to hear it.

Marriage is most certainly not off topic. Because a relationship with God is very much like a marriage: He is the spouse that always forgives you, always takes you back, always keeps His promises, never pushes you away. But just like on earth, where even the most perfect and loyal spouse can’t stop the other from freely walking away into their own choice of misery, neither does God force you to stay.

Once death, there is no change in our state of mind. The angels chose in one moment forever. Once we leave this life, our minds are fixed and by nature, the choice is permanent. There is no lack of mercy inherent in the fact that you can’t leave Hell once you are there.

He gives us our entire lifetime to make the choice. How much more mercy could you have?
 
SilverShadow22 said:
I continue to marvel how people take everything said about a place/state of being WITHOUT FORM OR PHYSICALITY as literal. EVERYTHING you say to physically describe a spirit is by definition a METAPHOR. Our entire language revolves around the physical because that’s what we are. Quibbling over how these terms don’t exactly apply is missing the entire point of the discussion.
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Right. It is a peculiarity of atheism that it sees life as fundamentalists do, and so it objects to a straw man. (at least in the context of Catholicism here)
 
NoelFitz said:
God wants me to go to heaven, he is all powerful, yet does he let me be damned for all eternity? Does God look on and say you have free will, I will not interfere, but I will give you grace and a guardian angel and after that it is up to you.

To me a merciful all-powerful creator allowing me to go to hell seems difficult to grasp.
If God is loving and all powerful how can anyone suffer in torments for ever?

Please help.
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Well, if hell isn’t eternal, why should heaven be? We may have difficulty grasping the eternity of hell, but no one seems it difficult to grasp the eternity of heaven as if we deserve it and it’s our right. In the after life, maybe God should have assigned a certain number of years for punishment for the wicked, say 5000 years of merited punishment for some person (I think this would be the easy way out for the wicked), and say 5000 years of merited happiness for some good person, and when this time was completed annihilated both. Of course, the good God has promised the good something far better, namely, eternal happiness.

Your focus concerning your difficulty seems to be on God’s mercy and love. There is nothing wrong about thinking about God’s mercy and love for God is infinitely merciful and loving. But these are not the only attributes of God. God is also infinitely just. We are not going to have a proper idea of God if we say God is merciful and loving to the exclusion of his justice. The scriptures, both the Old and New Testaments, abound about the justice of God. I personally would not want to live in this world with its many injustices and crimes committed by humans against other humans and at the same time worship a God in whom there was no justice or who had no idea of justice. I’m sure there have been many people in the history of the human race who have been victims whether personally or family related of heineous crimes whose only hope of having justice being done them would be in the next life where the perfect justice of God will prevail.

So, I suggest that might help your difficulty is to look at that other attribute of God which concerns his justice. What is justice? What is perfect justice? What is infinitely perfect justice of which God is? For starters concerning justice, one can look at how governments apply justice or at least how it should be applied justly; there are courts of law, laws are enacted and enforced and punishments dished out to the breakers of the law which can include imprisonment. Read also the Bible in which we can find many instances of the justice of God being executed in one way or another upon the Israelites and other nations or upon particular persons. The Ten Commandments and the Law that God gave through Moses to the Israelites as the scriptures say is a just law.

God wants his children to be in heaven with him forever. But he will not force us to love and serve him, he gave us free will. I cannot think of a greater deterrent God could have given us to keep his commandments than the eternal punishment of hell-fire. Now, if there are some people who don’t fear or care about being eternally punished, than in my opinion, such a soul is truly lost and there is no remedy.

The punishment of hell-fire is eternal. This is what Jesus said and the Holy Scriptures which is the word of God. And if we don’t believe in the word of God, whose word can we believe in? Perfect justice is not had in this world. It only makes sense that perfect justice is going to prevail in some other world, namely, the next life and the end of the world. I would also suggest that instead of doubting or calling into question the eternity of hell, why not focus on getting to heaven and doing all you can to get to heaven and you won’t have to worry about going to hell. Do you want eternal happiness or eternal misery? Leave the wicked and their fate in the hands of God.
 
goout said:
Right. It is a peculiarity of atheism that it sees life as fundamentalists do, and so it objects to a straw man. (at least in the context of Catholicism here)
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Yes. There seems to be with atheism a rather tortured reading of the Scriptures that would be at home in a fundamentalist Bible-Alone forum.

However, when in dialogue with Catholics on a Catholic forum, their fundamentalist lenses do not serve them well in defending their atheism.
 
PRmerger said:
Yes. There seems to be with atheism a rather tortured reading of the Scriptures that would be at home in a fundamentalist Bible-Alone forum.

However, when in dialogue with Catholics on a Catholic forum, their fundamentalist lenses do not serve them well in defending their atheism.
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As the saying goes: scratch an atheist, find a fundamentalist.

ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/scratch-an-atheist-find-a-fundamentalist/

dangerousidea.blogspot.com/2011/11/who-are-most-literal-readers-of.html
 
NoelFitz said:
To me a merciful all-powerful creator allowing me to go to hell seems difficult to grasp…
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What if you viewed it this way, as articulated by Philosopher Peter Kreeft: Imagine a man in hell—no, a ghost—endlessly chasing his own shadow, as the light of God shines endlessly behind him. If he would only turn and face the light, he would be saved. But he refuses to—forever.
 
PRmerger et al.

thank you all for contributing to this discussion.

Peter Kreeft is a brilliant, solid, Catholic writer, whose views should be considered seriously.

To claim a supposedly all-powerful, loving and merciful being creates persons who he knows will suffer horrendous pain for all eternity seems difficult for me to grasp.

The Catholic Church recently is trying to back away from the pains of hell by emphasizing the absence of the beatific vision as being the principal punishment in hell. But Catholic teaching holds both poena damni and poena sensus exist (newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm).

Recent popes have gone far in playing down the pains of hell. I know a priest who admits he never mentions hell, and I rarely hear of it in Church. Hans Urs von Balthasar has gone as far as an orthodox Catholic can in claiming that it is not unreasonable to believe that all are saved,

But the teaching of the Church remains.

So let us pray for each other and remember the words of Julian of Norwich "all will be well".

Here are a few quotes you might like to think about:

“Some will not be redeemed. There is no doctrine which I would more willingly remove from Christianity than this, if it lay in my power.”
C. S. Lewis

For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life (1 Cor. 15:22 NAB).

For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all (Rom. 11:32 NAB).

In conclusion, just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all, so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all (Rom. 5:18 NAB).
 
It seems some here may consider me an atheist and/or a fundamentalist, and I did not intend to reply to this opinion. But in my spiritual reading this evening I came across a verse of St Paul, where he replies to some who considered themselves to be very spiritual and Paul not so, that may be relevant:

Look at what confronts you. Whoever is confident of belonging to Christ should consider that as he belongs to Christ, so do we (2 Cor. 10:7 NAB).
 
NoelFitz said:
It seems some here may consider me an atheist and/or a fundamentalist, and I did not intend to reply to this opinion.
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Firstly, NF, could you please use the “quote” feature when responding? (It’s the little icon at the bottom right of a member’s post). That makes it easier for all of us to see exactly what it is you’re referencing.

Secondly, I don’t think anyone has considered you an atheist and/or a fundamentalist…esp. since your profile identifies you as a Catholic.

Atheism and fundamentalism were brought up as generalities, not personally.
 
NoelFitz said:
PRmerger et al.

thank you all for contributing to this discussion.

Peter Kreeft is a brilliant, solid, Catholic writer, whose views should be considered seriously.
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Indeed.
To claim a supposedly all-powerful, loving and merciful being creates persons who he knows will suffer horrendous pain for all eternity seems difficult for me to grasp.
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When you think of God in this context, you should avoid any conceptual framework that speaks of God as knowing anyone “will” do something. As in the future tense.

For God, all is in the Eternal Now.

There is no “he will do this in 2017” for God.

And thus, there is no blame or onus on God for creating a person who “will suffer in 2017 when it’s September 2, 2016 right now and God could prevent this”.
 
NoelFitz said:
The Catholic Church recently is trying to back away from the pains of hell by emphasizing the absence of the beatific vision as being the principal punishment in hell. But Catholic teaching holds both poena damni and poena sensus exist (newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm).

Recent popes have gone far in playing down the pains of hell. I know a priest who admits he never mentions hell, and I rarely hear of it in Church. Hans Urs von Balthasar has gone as far as an orthodox Catholic can in claiming that it is not unreasonable to believe that all are saved,

But the teaching of the Church remains.
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Not sure what your point here is?

A priest never mentioning hell means, what?
 
PRmerger said:
Not sure what your point here is?

A priest never mentioning hell means, what?
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PRmerger,

Thanks for your reply.

I appreciate very much your replies and interest in my concerns. Also I am impressed with your knowledge of the faith and clarity of presentation. I am afraid I am generally confused and lack the ability to precisely present my focus.

So I wil try to use the ‘quote’ option.

My point was a minor one, that at present the concept of hell is not discussed and ignored generally.
 
PRmerger said:
Firstly, NF, could you please use the “quote” feature when responding? (It’s the little icon at the bottom right of a member’s post). That makes it easier for all of us to see exactly what it is you’re referencing.

Secondly, I don’t think anyone has considered you an atheist and/or a fundamentalist…esp. since your profile identifies you as a Catholic.

Atheism and fundamentalism were brought up as generalities, not personally.
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**
PRmereger**

Thanks again. I had thought I was considered an atheist and a fundamentalist in this thread. Thanks for clarification.

I have been looking at the sites you recommend and am becoming more impressed with your knowledge, and also with your enthusiasm for the faith and for evangelization.

I am confused (again) with the video clip about atheism. Does it imply that the Big Bang Theory is atheistic? Its initiator was Monsignor Georges Lemaitre. But perhaps his Jesuit schooling and later education at Oxford, Harvard and MIT gave him strange ideas.

Your ‘three minute apologetic’ site is very solid. Congratulations.

Both of us admire Peter Kreeft. My favorite book of his is “Prayer for Beginners” - but I never got past its ideas.
 
NoelFitz said:
PRmerger,

Thanks for your reply.

I appreciate very much your replies and interest in my concerns. Also I am impressed with your knowledge of the faith and clarity of presentation.
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:tiphat:
My point was a minor one, that at present the concept of hell is not discussed and ignored generally.
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This is true.
 
Richca

many thanks for your long and thoughtful reply to me. I appreciate it that you took so much effort to reply in such detail.
I personally know of no teaching from the Church to substantiate your statement here whatever it means.
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We agree essentially, but my point is emphasis changes. The Church under Francis differs for that under JP II an B XVI, In the history of the Church rarely are scholars popes, but B XVI, a theolopgian, and J II, a philosopher were. The Church of 50 years ago differs from the Church now, but the fundamentals are the same. The emphasis under JP II differs from that under B XVI, as well as under Francis now.

When I want to see what the Church used to teach I look at Ott “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma”. Its tone differs from post Vat II, for example then the laity assisted at Mass, now we participate.

One does not hear Francis talking much of the pains of hell, the focus is on mercy. One does not hear now that “extra ecclesia nulla salus”

I read what Francis said:
*there is no punishment, but the destruction/annihilation of that soul. [The Italian word is annullamento, literally, “turned into nothing”, meaning here the same as the more usual Italian word for annihilation, annientamento] All the others will participate in the beatitude of living in the presence of the Father. The souls that are destroyed/annihilated will not take part in that banquet; with the death of the body their journey is finished. And this is the motivation of the Church’s missionary activity: to save the lost. And it is also the reason why Francis is a Jesuit to the end." *
remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/fetzen-fliegen/item/1611-did-pope-francis-just-deny-the-existence-of-hell

I am sure the pope would never teach anything contrary to Church teaching. Jesuits need to be interpreted with care, and the WWW is not the most reliable source.

You say “consider wisdom” this is appropriate. I heard at Mass today:

For who knows God’s counsel, or who can conceive what the Lord intends? For the deliberations of mortals are timid, and uncertain our plans. For the corruptible body burdens the soul and the earthly tent weighs down the mind with its many concerns. Scarcely can we guess the things on earth, and only with difficulty grasp what is at hand; but things in heaven, who can search them out?
(Wis. 9:13-16 NAB)
 
NoelFitz said:
Richca

many thanks for your long and thoughtful reply to me. I appreciate it that you took so much effort to reply in such detail.

We agree essentially, but my point is emphasis changes.
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Nothing wrong with that, is there?
 
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