Does God intervene?

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NoelFitz said:
LM #14
You wrote ‘Hell is heaven without God. Not so torturous on the surface’. Scripture has spoken about the fire and pain in hell. But many now, including the pope, stress the view of souls suffering from loss of God in hell, not the pain of fire.

Your talk of marriage is off-topic.
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Again, a place where no one has physicality can ONLY BE DESCRIBED IN TERMS OF METAPHOR. The emphasis this takes can vary from culture, time, place, or the emphasis more convenient at a particular time.

Marriage was most assuredly NOT off topic, and the fact that you think it is shows just how deeply you missed the point.
 
NoelFitz said:
ss22 #15
You wrote ‘Hell is merely the absence of all good…’ This is not the teaching of the Catholic Church. Theologians talk of poena damni and poena sensus. Pains of fire and pain exist according to traditional Catholic teaching, but this seems rejected by many now.
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Well, let’s see. To quote the catechism directly:

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

“Eternal fire” is in quotes. BUT NOTE THE SECOND LINE.

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; 618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.

My emphasis.

God does not ‘send’ anyone to Hell. You go ‘there’ if, at the moment of death, you persist in rejecting God. Then you leave His presence, as YOU YOURSELF CHOSE.
 
DG #24
You ask me to be more specific.
I thought I was pretty specific in quoting where the bible mentions the fires of hell, even if I was not full comprehensive.

Here is a quote from Matthew, I do not think it could be more explicit.

Thus it will be at the end of the age. The angels will go out and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth. (Matt. 13:49-50 NAB)
 
SilverShadow22 said:
Everyone is STILL missing the point. They want God to save them from, say, a drunk driver. So… They want Him to take away the consequences of the free will of a person to drink, drink too much, get behind the wheel… Or maybe just magically make a law that no car hits another? Why then would anyone care what they do? If there are no consequences for careless responsibility, how do we show our worth by being responsible?
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We all sin, so who did Jesus die for, if it was not for sinners?
 
MO #26
welcome. It is good to hear a new voice.
Your post is very sound, being solid philosophy and Catholic understanding.
I agree that love is wishing another well.
 
LM #34

Is it wrong to question God?

Prophets did it:
How long, O LORD, must I cry for help and you do not listen? Or cry out to you, “Violence!” and you do not intervene? Why do you let me see iniquity? Why do you simply gaze at evil? Destruction and violence are before me; there is strife and discord. (Hab. 1:2-3 NAB).

Also Jesus himself did:
And about three o’clock Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matt. 27:46 NAB)

I follow (I hope) Anselm with faith seeking understanding. I question God to try to find out about him and his Church.
 
NoelFitz said:
LM #34

Is it wrong to question God?

Prophets did it:
How long, O LORD, must I cry for help and you do not listen? Or cry out to you, “Violence!” and you do not intervene? Why do you let me see iniquity? Why do you simply gaze at evil? Destruction and violence are before me; there is strife and discord. (Hab. 1:2-3 NAB).

Also Jesus himself did:
And about three o’clock Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matt. 27:46 NAB)

I follow (I hope) Anselm with faith seeking understanding. I question God to try to find out about him and his Church.
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No, I am not saying having or asking the question is wrong.

I find it funny however that is often those who say “I don’t understand God” whom also proceed to tell anyone who tries at explanation they are nonsensical/wrong/or some other general fail of thought.

You see, it is to cast a bit of negativity human to human and claim I fail to be speaking of anything worthwhile. It is often it seems also an ill attempt at insult.

But then the point is if the party claiming nonsense also claims such upon God. Then the insult is in reality flattery, is it not?

And I thank you for your flattery sir 🙂
 
Garyjohn2 #42

If God loved me why did he make me knowing I will suffer in hell for all eternity? Could he prevent me going to hell"
 
LM #43
You wrote ‘Oh that is right, your level of understanding explains why you are here arguing that God is wrong.’
What are you suggesting?
 
NoelFitz said:
LM #43
You wrote ‘Oh that is right, your level of understanding explains why you are here arguing that God is wrong.’
What are you suggesting?
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I had to go back to find that one lol but you said
NoelFitz said:
LM #14
Your talk of marriage is off-topic.
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When I said that. The point is that whenever people like you ask the question they tell everyone with explanation “I don’t understand you” “You are speaking nonsense” “You are off topic”

Now I am a believer of 2 reasons, one is mental capacity, the other being a desire not to understand.

The former we will ignore for these purposes and we should explore the latter.

You see if you want to avoid feeling any need to live as God says, and have the pluck on your heart that makes you feel bad, then you need to heavily justify unto yourself a reason to veer off. That justification usually comes in the form of “God is bad” or “God doesn’t exist anyway”

Ironically it often comes in the form of both… He is both bad/wrong and does not exist, that ironic anger that many atheists tend to hold toward God.

Now note almost all of Jesus’s teachings were levied via parable or analogous stories with no “direct” connection to the “topic” much in the way of my marriage example. The prodigal son, the good Samaritan, the friend who knocked on the door etc…

Partly because nothing describes heaven/God better than the words heave/God. Only stating what a thing is accurately describes the thing. But when someone knows not said thing, we must try to use things they might understand to explain the thing they do not.

And as to the questioning God, yes you might ask, but then again:

Job 38-42 biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+38-42&version=NIV
 
ss22 #48

You wrote ‘Your attitude is condescending’.

I am very sorry if anything I wrote was considered condescending. It was never my intention.
Please accept my apology.
 
ss22 #50

Marriage is off-topic as the focus of this thread as in my first post.

*God wants me to go to heaven, he is all powerful, yet does he let me be damned for all eternity? Does God look on and say you have free will, I will not interfere, but I will give you grace and a guardian angel and after that it is up to you.

To me a merciful all-powerful creator allowing me to go to hell seems difficult to grasp.
If God is loving and all powerful how can anyone suffer in torments for ever?*
 
NoelFitz said:
ss22 #50

Marriage is off-topic as the focus of this thread as in my first post.

*God wants me to go to heaven, he is all powerful, yet does he let me be damned for all eternity? Does God look on and say you have free will, I will not interfere, but I will give you grace and a guardian angel and after that it is up to you.

To me a merciful all-powerful creator allowing me to go to hell seems difficult to grasp.
If God is loving and all powerful how can anyone suffer in torments for ever?*
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So you never spoke on Jesus’s explanations. If marriage was off topic than by that logic so was all of Jesus’s parables that were not direct answers.

If the marriage example was off topic, irrelevant and such, then surely you must ignore all that which Jesus said in parable?
 
NoelFitz said:
I am grateful to all in CAF, who have respectfully entered into discussion with me, even when my queries were a bit confused. At present I am concerned about grace vs. free will.

I read that St Paul, like the Jews of his time, believed there was one God who controls major world events, but does not interfere necessarily in every minor event. Do Catholics believe the same?

God wants me to go to heaven, he is all powerful, yet does he let me be damned for all eternity? Does God look on and say you have free will, I will not interfere, but I will give you grace and a guardian angel and after that it is up to you.

To me a merciful all-powerful creator allowing me to go to hell seems difficult to grasp.
If God is loving and all powerful how can anyone suffer in torments for ever?

Please help.
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We need God’s help-grace- from beginning to end. From our side it begins with our acknowledgement of our need for Him, to help us will and do what we realize we cannot will and do on our own. From Mark 9, the story of the boy possessed by an impure spirit:

“It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us.”
“ ‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.”
Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”

We need help or motivation to turn to God and we need help to then ask, seek, and knock-and help to remain and grow in that created/Creator relationship. God* draws *us to Himself; He seeks to elicit our response without force or coercion, But with all the help we still are never forced to move. Otherwise free will has no meaning, it’s no longer free at all. In that case God might as well of simply stopped Adam & Eve from sinning to begin with.
 
NoelFitz said:
ss22 #50

Marriage is off-topic as the focus of this thread as in my first post.

*God wants me to go to heaven, he is all powerful, yet does he let me be damned for all eternity? Does God look on and say you have free will, I will not interfere, but I will give you grace and a guardian angel and after that it is up to you.

To me a merciful all-powerful creator allowing me to go to hell seems difficult to grasp*.
If God is loving and all powerful how can anyone suffer in torments for ever?
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If this were untrue, no one would need to use a relatable example for your understanding. When I do not understand something I tend to listen to people who do. If I don’t listen I generally go on not understanding 🤷
 
SS22 #52
You quote ‘1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; 618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.’
This is a new idea and I need to study it.
Thanks for raising it.
 
fhansen #70
I am most grateful to you for your solid, powerful and uplifting post. It show a wonderful appreciation and understanding of Catholic teaching. It brings a calming influence to this thread which perhaps has been provocative recently.

It is difficult to grasp Catholc teaching, but all of us Catholics should try our best, and be honest with each other.

I have expressed my concerns, and have been met with understanding as well as criticism. This is healthy.
 
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