Does God know my future? Do I really have free will?

[Patrick7]

I have questions that are alittle confusing to me.

I understand that in the Christian and general Abrahamic religion that we as human beings have free will and our ultimate fate lies in the way we lived our lived on earth.

The good are saved and are to live an eternal life of happiness.

The damned will live in eternal pain and suffering.

So since God is ultimately all knowing and full of knowledge and wisdom, what is the point of our being.

You see, if God is all knowing then technically he knows exactly what I will do before I do it, which technically would mean he already knows if I will be saved or damned. So what is my purpose? Is it some people were made and born to be saved and others are to be damned?

It seems we are all just puppets or a video that was directed.

If we are to have true free will then that mean could not be all omnipotent. His wisdom would have to be limited wouldn’t it?

I don’t mind being a puppet for God and I have no right to question his authority. He created me and he can do as he wishes to me and there is nothing I can do about it. I still have a for God as my creator and God of course loves his creation. I mean anything you create you love and there are many types of love but how does God love us?

 

[Peregrino]

I have questions that are alittle confusing to me.

I understand that in the Christian and general Abrahamic religion that we as human beings have free will and our ultimate fate lies in the way we lived our lived on earth.

The good are saved and are to live an eternal life of happiness.

The damned will live in eternal pain and suffering.

So since God is ultimately all knowing and full of knowledge and wisdom, what is the point of our being.

You see, if God is all knowing then technically he knows exactly what I will do before I do it, which technically would mean he already knows if I will be saved or damned. So what is my purpose? Is it some people were made and born to be saved and others are to be damned?

It seems we are all just puppets or a video that was directed.

If we are to have true free will then that mean could not be all omnipotent. His wisdom would have to be limited wouldn’t it?

I don’t mind being a puppet for God and I have no right to question his authority. He created me and he can do as he wishes to me and there is nothing I can do about it. God does of course love his creation. I mean anything you create you love and there are many types of love but how does God love us?

I have often wondered if the “gift” of freewill automatically gives us the right to question God. I mean, why give it in the first place if we can’t use it on ultimate issues? Perhaps questioning is not the issue but obeying is the issue. However, which “God made” rules to obey then becomes the hurdle.

You are highlighting more of the famous questions about God’s qualities. God will ultimately be found to be either NOT omnipotent, omnibenevolent or omniscient in any of these lines of thought. They ultimately contradict each other.

 

[Patrick7]

I guess these kind of things are beyond our scope of understanding.

If God knows everything then he knew adam and eve would eat the apple and he know that serpent would tempt them and that Lucifer would turn against him.

Although there is no debate that there is a God.

 

[Keikiolu]

I have questions that are alittle confusing to me.

I understand that in the Christian and general Abrahamic religion that we as human beings have free will and our ultimate fate lies in the way we lived our lived on earth.

The good are saved and are to live an eternal life of happiness.

The damned will live in eternal pain and suffering.

So since God is ultimately all knowing and full of knowledge and wisdom, what is the point of our being.

We were created to want to be with God, and to do what needs doing to get there.

You see, if God is all knowing then technically he knows exactly what I will do before I do it, which technically would mean he already knows if I will be saved or damned.

You only need to hold in your mind that you DO have free will, and nothing can violate or negate it, and God IS omnipotent and arranged things so that the most good can come out of His creation (the universe).

These “two things” don’t contradict each other, but how they can not contradict each other is a mystery, which we are to accept as such.

Your job is not to try to “reconcile established mysteries” of the Church, but to “be Christian”.

So what is my purpose? Is it some people were made and born to be saved and others are to be damned?

It seems we are all just puppets or a video that was directed.

If we are to have true free will then that mean could not be all omnipotent. His wisdom would have to be limited wouldn’t it?

I don’t mind being a puppet for God and I have no right to question his authority. He created me and he can do as he wishes to me and there is nothing I can do about it. I still have a for God as my creator and God of course loves his creation. I mean anything you create you love and there are many types of love but how does God love us?

God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[JRKH]

I can’t give any deep answers but I’ll share my 2c

God may know what is going to happen but that doesn’t mean he has is all “planned”. We believe that God exists outside of our concept of time, so he lives in the past present and future at once.

Ultimately the answer to the question is:
God may “know” what I’m going to do - But I don’t —

Therefore I have free will.

James

 

[Patrick7]

But isn’t that the whole point.

If God does indeed live outside our understanding of space and time. And he indeed knows of the future and present then we are either predestined to succeed or fail. And also one can’t change the course of events since they are going to happen anyway.

 

[JRKH]

But isn’t that the whole point.

If God does indeed live outside our understanding of space and time. And he indeed knows of the future and present then we are either predestined to succeed or fail. And also one can’t change the course of events since they are going to happen anyway.

And if God can do anything can he make a rock so big that He Himself can’t pick it up?

There are just some questions destined to drive you crazy if you let them.

I stand by my origional statement:
Regardless of whether God knows my future or not, I DON’T. Therefore I have free will.

 

[Patrick7]

JRKH interesting post. you know another question that can make you go crazy what is the purpose of all life? what is the purpose of your life? since God has a pre-determined path means some are destined for good and others for bad.

 

[JRKH]

JRKH interesting post. you know another question that can make you go crazy what is the purpose of all life?

To Witness and Praise the Glory of God.

What is the purpose of your life?

To serve God and my Fellow Man as God wishes me to; freely and joyfully.

Since God has a pre-determined path means some are destined for good and others for bad.

Your idea, not mine.
Don’t confuse Knowledge (as in God knows all) with Planning (as in God has everything planned and I have nothing to do with it.)

Let’s try another angle by presupposing that:

1. God has a plan
   Part of God’s plan is to give me choice. (Freewill) Because he gives me this he does not interfere with my excersize of it.
2. God knows the outcome
   God knows all therefore he knows all possible outcomes based on which options I choose. His knowledge of all possible outcomes does not interfere with my freewill and does not constitute pre-destination.

In All Seriousness:
God is huge. He fills the heavens and the earth. All things were created by God and must be of God. Any mortal explaination of God limits God.

If you are seeking to understand God, it is first necessary to accept God with no predetermined concepts or limits. God simply cannot be explained within the restrictive range of human understanding. That is why we take so much on faith.
God reveals himself to each person in different ways and at different times. Our job, as it were, is to provide a good reciever. We do this, not by judging God, but by quieting our mind, giving Him thanks for His many blessings to us, and asking him into our lives.

As you cultivate this quiet, reflective form of prayer you will begin to grow in understanding of a world greater than we mere mortals could ever dream of. A peace that transcends time, space, sorrows or trials will fill you and you will find these kinds of questions to be of no great importance. In this quiet corner The Holy Spirit will enter and dwell. The Holy Spirit will give you insights greater than you can imagine.

Beware though; The evil one will be near as well. Looking for a chance to corrupt you. Seek only God and listen to only Good. Remember that when God finished creation he said, “It Is Good”

Peace on Your Journey

James

 

[Rebelecka]

You are thinking on a human time-line. We humans have a past, a present (whoops! there it went:wink: ) and a future. My thought of God is that He lives in the ever-present now. All times are “now” to Him. God wouldn’t have a “time-line.”

So…we humans make a choice (ie: free-will). To us, there are things we have chosen, and things we will choose. God knows our choices from eternity; none are in the past and none are in the future to Him because He is always “now.”

Maybe it would help to think about it as geometry. Let’s say humans are a line; we have 2 dimentions–length and width. In this case there would be no up or down. But let’s say God is 3 dimentional; He has length, width and depth. He can see what we, the 2 dimentional beings, cannot.

I very strongly feel that any sort of time usage in regards to God is completely missing His Reality.

I know that’s kind of confused, but I hope I made a little bit of sense…

 

[MrS]

These questions come up all the time when we study Ephesians… the elect, the chosen, the predestination, double predestination, adoption etc.

The one word which does not appear is mystery. And that is key to accepting the Word of God. We are trying to think as He thinks. That is neither “fair” to God, nor to ourselves.

But, if we were to consider that we are helpless in determining our destiny, then we must - in a sense - prefer the image of the God of Islam over the God of Christianity.

(no, I do not think they are the same)

The God of Islam is that Master-God. He simply owns us as slaves, and can do as he wishes. We need only submit, and await our final destination.

The God of Christianity is that of Father-God. How often do we hear that term from our separated brethren in their prayers. They got it right.:yup:

So… ask yourselves this (no mystery): What Father would possibly create His own children to hate Him. That is, what Father would create with the express purpose that His children sin and go to hell?

If He did create for damnation, then that individual (Judas for example) could easily stand before the Lord and be innocent… after all, he only did what he was created to do.

We should know better.

God creates everything for good. No exceptions. He gave the angels a free will, and He gave us our free will. As it says in Timothy… God desires all men to be saved.

But it is up to each of us to choose God over sin.

Does God know what MY choice will be? Yes
Do I have the free will to make that choice? Yes
Will God give me as much grace as I need to love Him? Yes

.

 

[MichiganTrumbul]

Patrick7:

The short answer to your two questions is, yes and yes.

Reconciling God’s sovereignty with man’s actual free will is one tough theological nut to crack, and to date, it has not been cracked. All we have done is obtained what we hope is a clearer perspective.

If you would like to give your intellect one helluva rollercoaster ride, I would suggest two books for you. They are “Predestination” and “Providence”, written by the same Dominican priest, Father Reginald Garrigou-LaGrange.

Make sure you have a bottle of the headache medication of your preference, as these books, though readable, are deep.

MT

 

[mangy_dog]

God the Son would also know that the man He would leave as the first Pope of His church would deny Him 3 times. He would also know that the two thieves that would be crucified with him would have an “11th hour” opportunity to repent of their sins and thus enter into glory with Him and that the possibility existed that neither would take advantage of the opportunity and that maybe only one would take it… on and on and on.!!

God knows all the outcomes of all the decisions of all the contingencies that were, are and will be possible for every single human being and how the inter-action of one human being affects the possbilities and outcomes of the next, should they ever meet or not meet.

But God doesn’t violate our free will.

When you have a chance, go outside and observe a blade of grass and a tall tree. (please bear with me) both are perfect even if the tree has broken branches or is bent to one side or is missing its bark or is struck by lightning. And the blade of grass is perfect even if it gets mowed, trampled on…whatever. They are perfect because regardless of how nature or man keeps attacking it, it still does God’s perfect will…which is to be a tree or to be a blade of grass and to grow. It will continue to do God’s perfect will until it last moment of life.

We are created and our perfect identity is in God’s mind. The person we should perfectly be is hidden in God because from the moment we start making decisions we tend to become less and less like the person we’re supposed to be. Only thru God’s grace do some of us proximate and start to resemble our true identity so that when we knock on the door, the Lord won’t say “I don’t know you”.
I may have succeeded in making the answer all murky and unintelligible. I pray the Lord will allow you to glean what is useful of this message.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Benadam]

God knows what will happen and what could have happened. God knows every possible act and every act and knows it as a whole reality in a single glance so to speak, Time in eternity is a duration without succession, beginning or end. It is a continual present without succession.

God formed His own image from the earth. A self determined creature. God’s knowing the creature from eternity, knowing what the creature will determine. is in no way determining what the creature will determine. The creature is free to determine what kind of creature to be and God will respect the creatures will no matter what it determines. Knowing what the creature will determine allows God to give special Grace to those who will determine what is good, and sufficient Grace for those who will not in the end ever choose the good but have not abandoned the state of becoming.

God has predestined some for special roles and these He knows will choose Him freely. Knowing what they will determine God gives them the Grace to fulfill it to the fullest. Freedom is being able to do what ought to be done. Those who are determined to do that are shaped into what they ought to be as well.

How does God’s knowing a person’s end hinder that person’s ability to determine it themselves?

 

[ilovekittens]

If omniscient God knows before the game who the strong will be and who the weak will be, and thus the winners and losers, why did he play the game at all? Why did He create a bunch of weak, selfish people who aren’t going to love Him - people who are going to end up burning in the fires of Gehenna? Wouldn’t it be better for them never to have been born? Wouldn’t a compassionate, omniscient God not have created these people doomed for eternal suffering? Why would He do that?

 

[Benadam]

If omniscient God knows before the game who the strong will be and who the weak will be, and thus the winners and losers, why did he play the game at all? Why did He create a bunch of weak, selfish people who aren’t going to love Him - people who are going to end up burning in the fires of Gehenna? Wouldn’t it be better for them never to have been born? Wouldn’t a compassionate, omniscient God not have created these people doomed for eternal suffering? Why would He do that?

He didn’t create anything that lacked good. He created both humans and angels as self determined creatures. Many determine for themselves another good to be. Love requires that freedom. If we know God is good then we know that whatever the end of corruption holds for humanity, it will be good in ways we are unable to conceive. He created all of us so that we could share in the unimaginably wonderfull divine life. He created to share Himself.

Eternal damnation is a difficult concept to understand as a good of God. It isn’t entirely ungraspable though if one holds stedfast in the knowledge that God is Love and is Good and is Just. It isn’t His Creative Will that hell exists but His Permissive Will because Love requires freedom to choose.

From a human perspective paradox surrounds God. Paradox surrounded Jesus. It’s a symptom of our condition. Because of sin we have lost the Original Simplicity we were created in and in various degrees are unable to integrate the two realities we exist in. As for most pardox the anchor to reconciling them is knowing God is good. With that as an anchor paradox becomes a door to questions leading to answers that reveal that good.

With God it all works out in the wash.

 

[JRKH]

If omniscient God knows before the game who the strong will be and who the weak will be, and thus the winners and losers, why did he play the game at all? Why did He create a bunch of weak, selfish people who aren’t going to love Him - people who are going to end up burning in the fires of Gehenna? Wouldn’t it be better for them never to have been born? Wouldn’t a compassionate, omniscient God not have created these people doomed for eternal suffering? Why would He do that?

The simplest answer to your question is we don’t know. However, since God did “play the game” it is not up to us to question His reasons or motives. We can only do the best we can with our limited intellect. The simple fact is that if God didn’t “play the game”, we wouldn’t be here to ask the question.

We can see that God has created a beautifully ordered universe that functions in very specific ways. This is the ordered universe that is at once constant and ever changing. Everything in the universe gives praise and glory to God it’s creator because it must. It has no other choice. To complete God’s joy in His creation He needed one more thing. Something that would honor Him of it’s own free will.

God created man, not as a stand alone creature apart from His universe, but as a very special and important component within the universe. Man stands upon this planet in this solar system above all other creatures, the image and likeness of God. Since we are created in God’s image, God had to give us free will. That free will allows us to choose between a multitude of options, but they basically boil down to a choice between order and chaos.

We are also constant and ever changing in that we have the ability to choose between the order and beauty of God’s peace and will in our lives, or the disorder that comes from trying to live and control our lives outside of the love and order of God. It is easy to be seduced by our own power to control but ultimately, unless we align our goals with God’s will, chaos can be the only result.

God has always been near to us as He is a part of all His creation. He has inspired wise men and women to minister, exhort and lead people back to Him and His ways. From Abraham to Jesus and from Jesus through the saints down to the present day we are invited join all creation in giving glory to God. But it must be our choice.

Peace,

James

 

[Keikiolu]

If omniscient God knows before the game who the strong will be and who the weak will be, and thus the winners and losers, why did he play the game at all?

Because it’s not a game. Unless you are using the word “game” in the “game theory” meaning of the word, in which case the “game” is a pedagogical exercise in “free will”.

God only knows the “winners and losers”, when He is referencing the “end of the story”, not when He is working with the “middle of the story”.

I like to think of this “story” that we are “in” so as to learn what we need to learn, as a book,… where we react to that which He has written as our free will allows, and where He can turn to ANY page at any “God Time” and “write in conditions and ‘interferences’”, so as to better affect our personal and collective (men and man) learning “experience”.

He can always flip to the end of the story, which is His “knowing the end”, but after changing something somewhere earlier in the story, can then flip back to the end again to see the effect, which is not a violation of His “plan” as it’s HIS BOOK…!!

But,… that’s just my “rationalization” of how “omniscience” (omnipotence) might work such that both omnipotence AND free will could exist simultaneously without one violating the other.

Why did He create a bunch of weak, selfish people who aren’t going to love Him - people who are going to end up burning in the fires of Gehenna?

Because He didn’t create a bunch of weak, selfich people. He created only good things, and only through the choices they make, most notably that LAST choice which people choose wrongly ONLY through not accepting mercy freely given simply because they can’t BELIEVE that God could be so “ridiculously generous”.

Wouldn’t it be better for them never to have been born?

Once you accept the fact that we CAN always be forgiven, why would it be “good” to deny the gift of life to any created human being? Since the choice of “eternal damnation” is self chosen, even that is a gift more “valuable” than non-existence.

Non-existence is never a better choice than any other choice.

Wouldn’t a compassionate, omniscient God not have created these people doomed for eternal suffering? Why would He do that?

That depends what you mean by “compassionate”.

If you see being compassionate as the “non-gift” of non-creation, as opposed to the opposite, the gift OF creation, then God is not compassionate for you, and the whole “point” of the universe is ludicrous.

If even to “justly suffer” is a better thing than not having existence at all, then all of God’s creations are given the most just and most merciful gifts possible,… as they choose them.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Pat_the_Cat]

My wife knows me very well. She doesn’t need to ask me if i want cream and sugar in my coffee. She already knows. Does that mean she has taken away my free will to choose?

Ok that does over-simplify it! Lets try this (I’m sorry if this sounds like rambling; I understand it in my head, am just not very good at writing it down. so bear with me.)

God is love. God wants to share his love. so God created creatures that he can love. God then created creatures that can love Him too, so that they can live in the love that he shares. God loves what he creates. God Knows what He creates. If it does not exist (and never will), then he cannot love it. He cannot KNOW it. Whether the creature chooses to love him back is up to them, but God created us to Love us.

If we were not free to eternally reject God’s love, then would never be free to recieve it either. There needs to be a choice.

Therefore to say that God shouldn’t create those that he knows will go to hell, is a Contradiction. How can God know someone through and through even although they don’t (and never will) exist. That’s like saying he can love something that isn’t. If God knows them, then they have already entered his plan. The fact that they might choose go to hell, is completely up to them. Not God’s bad planning.

**Example **
A man is affected by a series of events that hurt him and upset him (Death, bankruptcy etc.) God knows how this will affect him and has already given the grace (free gift) that this man needs to receive peace and consolation again. the man could receive this grace if he chooses to. Instead he chooses (willfully) to reject God’s grace. He becomes more miserable. God knew that this would happen and has already sent people to console him and bring comfort. But again the man refuses to accept these gifts and chooses to do things his own way, he looks to worldly thigs for gratification. He has refused to walk with God. He continues this throughout his life untill the end. His attitude is "I will not know, I will not love, I will not serve God. God in his Love has provided more than enough grace and opportunity for repentance, but the man refused God’s grace untill the end it was his choice to reject God and Heaven. God knew that these thing would happen, but continued to love him anyway, and never stopped providing opportunities for him untill his last breath.

The only thing we humans can think of is that God should “Force” the man into heaven and take away his free will. But this would be an un-loving thing, and God cannot be un-loving. That would be a contradiction. It would be contrary to His nature. So I suppose you could say that God in his love has permitted people to choose hell for themselves, as a real sign of how much he is willing to sacrifice to love us.

 

[Benadam]

How can God know someone through and through even although they don’t (and never will) exist. That’s like saying he can love something that isn’t. If God knows them, then they have already entered his plan. The fact that they might choose go to hell, is completely up to them. Not God’s bad planning.

too cool. The example was awesome too!