Does God know my future? Do I really have free will?

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I’m not a huge fan of Disney flicks, but there is an exchange in Beauty and the Beast that, I think sums it up: Beast had just let Belle go to see her ailing father. One of his servants asks him, “You let her go?” dismayed at the possibility of forever being a household object. Beast responds, “I had to, I love her.”

How could he truly profess to love her if he did not allow her to follow her heart? He could have forbidden her to go, as was their deal, yet he didn’t. In that situation, it was Beast who had the power. Wouldn’t his keeping her have caused her to hate him?

God is Love. Therefore, He ultimately will let us make our own decisions, which, due to the Fall, tend to be erroneous. This is the ultimate act of benevolence, and likewise is an ultimate act of justice (for the results of our choices are just). Thus, God can be omnibenevolent, omnijust, omniscient, and omnipotent.
 
I understand that in the Christian and general Abrahamic religion that we as human beings have free will and our ultimate fate lies in the way we lived our lived on earth.

The good are saved and are to live an eternal life of happiness.

The damned will live in eternal pain and suffering.
I guess first I would ask how do you define good and bad or as you put it the damnedl, but for what purpose is a man damned? Consider Romans 1:16 -25 when St. Paul begins by declaring that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation and then goes on to declare that all men are guilty before God not because they have sinned but because the things of God are manifest in such fashion as they cannot be missed. However, men deliberately refuse to acknowledge this truth and in doing so refuse, of thier own free will, to worship God and because of this failure to worship God gives men up to sin. Given this would it not be the case that fundamentally the difference between good and bad is whether or not we as free will agents will acknowledge what we plainly see through revealed manifest truth in creation itself, and for this reason it is not God but men who determine to go to hell?
 
So since God is ultimately all knowing and full of knowledge and wisdom, what is the point of our being.

You see, if God is all knowing then technically he knows exactly what I will do before I do it, which technically would mean he already knows if I will be saved or damned. So what is my purpose? Is it some people were made and born to be saved and others are to be damned?

It seems we are all just puppets or a video that was directed.

If we are to have true free will then that mean could not be all omnipotent. His wisdom would have to be limited wouldn’t it?
It was asked in this thread, “Can God create a stone which He cannot lift?” The answer is no. The reason is because if God did create a stone which He could not lift then He would cease to be omnipotent and thus also cease to be God. You see, if God does something which violates His own nature then He would cease to be God. But God is omnipotent right? Yes! However, we must not confuse omnipotent, the ability to do all things within God’s own nature and will, and omnicompotent, the ability to do anything of which I may be able to conceive. Can God create a square circle? No! Because a square circle is a contradiction and God is not the author of confusion.

The reason I mention this is because I want you to think about God’s nature as described by the Bible. The Bible says that God is omnipotent, which does not mean omnicompotent, omnisceint, omnipresent, and if you read carefully I think you will find the Bible asserting also that God is all wise (omnisapient) or that God never errs. So you say that God has a perfect knowledge and that means that we are all puppets on strings, but that is not what the Bible says.

To Be Continued…
 
So God has a nature and a will, which is above mine, but I also have a nature and a will, and St. Paul asserts that at the most fundamental nature my relationship to God is based upon my decision to worship or not to worship the One True and Living God.

If that is true, then right from the start the puppet strings are cut.

So how can God know the future without predetrmining it? Cause and effect. You see, you have not arrived at this thread asking these questions seperate from everything you have ever done, said or had happen to you. Because you are where you are, then I can fairly say that you did not arrive here by accident, but God did not order you to be here. You ordered yourself.

We are all free will creatures who make decisions everyday based upon what we want and our selfish search for pleasure, advancement and acheivement, and that’s not nessecarily a bad thing. When you eat you do so because it is rewarding to not feel hungry. You sleep because it feels good to not be tired. You go to church because you crave the closeness of God and fellowship with believers or because you really don’t want to hear your mom harp on you because you didn’t go. Or you don’t go because you just have to watch the football game. Regardless, everything that we do we do to serve ourselves. It is for this reason that St Paul says our righteousness is as filthy rags. Its because none of us is ever truly selfless. The reason why is Sin.
 



So since God is ultimately all knowing and full of knowledge and wisdom, what is the point of our being.

You see, if God is all knowing then technically he knows exactly what I will do before I do it, which technically would mean he already knows if I will be saved or damned. So what is my purpose? Is it some people were made and born to be saved and others are to be damned?

It seems we are all just puppets or a video that was directed.

If we are to have true free will then that mean could not be all omnipotent. His wisdom would have to be limited wouldn’t it?


Another poster mentioned that it is important not to confuse knowledge with causation. This is the key to the issue. We can appreciate this by using our human knowledge as an example.

I know with absolute certainty that the United States dropped atomic bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima in World War II. Needless to say my absolute knowledge of these historical facts does not mean that I caused the bombings to happen. The truth is obvious…I didn’t have anything to do with the decision or act of dropping those bombs on Japan.

Similary, God has the capacity to see the future with certainty just as I can see certain events of the past. His knowledge of the future is similar to my knowledge of the past in a number of different ways. Most importantly it becomes clear by logic that God’s foreknowledge does not automatically mean that he caused the events to happen.

I hope this helps.
 
Sin colors everything we do. Our nature is a sin nature (St Augustine) and we are slaves to this nature. Because we are ultimately selfish and slaves to a sin nature, we do not as some suppose walk around in a great unknowable flux of limitless possibilities, but rather we walk in a very straight line of self service and sinful desires in which no decision we ever make is truly random, but rather everything we do is determined by who we are and what we want.

Now God, being omnisceint, knows this about us and He knows our most intimate recesses of our hearts where we suppose that no one sees and we will never tell. But Jeramiah declares, The heart above all things is deceitful and desperately wicked, who can know it? The answer of course is God. God knows our hearts. Mine, yours and everybody else’s heart as well. For this reason, God knowing all the determining factors, God can know beforehand how we will respond to every situation without having to declare what our response will be.

God knew Joseph’s brothers hearts, and He also knew that He was going to send a great famine upon the land to get Israel away from the idolatry of the Caananites and preserve the Messianic Line, so God allowed Joseph’s brother, of thier own free will, to sell Joseph into slavery and he allowed Potipher’s wife to cause Joseph to be put into jail, all of this entirely within the free will of men, before sending Pharoah a dream which He would allow Joseph to interpret. This is why Joseph could say to his brothers, “You meant it for evil but God meant it for good.”
 
When God determines to do a work in our lives He, as with Joseph, can and will sometimes directly intervene, and in doing so change the course of lives. But you should not feel as though you have no choice in the matter and are being drawn without hope of change toward your destiny and that it is out of your hands. Because your Father has looked upon you and in His mercy has declared you to be lovely, and for this reason He will sometimes bless us so that we may praise Him highly and sometimes He will allow us to suffer that we may learn to hear His voice so that He may work in us for His own glory. But I do not believe that God violates us in someway because He knows where we are going. Rather it has been my experience that, when I need Him most, He is waiting for me around the bend and thankfully He has not had to give me a map to find Him because He in His knowledge and mercy and grace has found me.

God bless you.
I hope this helps.
 
I would like to put forward a philosophical idea and see what others think of it and if it is contrary to any of the teachings of the Catholic Church. I personally don’t know of any teachings it is contrary to, but perhaps others here could either point them out of the error of this possible solution to the apparent contradiction between omniscience and free will.

I will start by saying this relies on a comparison between the characteristics of omnipotence and omniscience.

The Church teaches that God is all powerful and I accept this. However we know that there are some things God cannot do, and I am not talking about philosophical paradoxes. I refer to the fact that God cannot destroy the world by flood ever again. This is because God has entered into a covenant, so this is a self limitation. Of course all promises made by God as part of any of His covenants would be of this nature, so there are many other examples we could provide. Some might be tempted to claim here that God is not really unable to destroy the earth through flood He has just chosen not to. But since God cannot lie, this is a difference that makes no difference.

Now for a moment I would like to describe the problem of free will, as I see it so it will be clear how my idea solves it.

God gave us free will and for it to be truly free it means we must be able to make any choice we wish. But if God is to know everything in an absolute sense, including every decision we make before we ever make it, that obviously is not the case. So to make this gift, a true gift of free will God self limits so that He does not know in an absolute sense our every decision. This does not mean God does not have a really good idea of what we are going to do, (since among other things He is an unsurpassed psychologist and sociologist) and He does in certain cases perform miracles which do restrict someones free will for a brief period, and of course He has His faithful which cooperate with His grace who He can work through to keep His plan on track.

So couldn’t the gift of free will also be of the same nature as a covenant? I mean could not God (who would know this problem of free will would exist if He knew everything) have decided that in order to make the gift a true one, purposely limit His ability to know every decision we would make in advance? God would still be omniscient, just as He is omnipotent. He would be unable to know in an absolute sense what decision we would make before we made it, in the same way there are things He cannot do under any number of the covenants. But this would not mean He was not all knowing anymore than it means He is not all powerful.
 
Hi again, Michael. 🙂

The position you’re describing seems really similar, perhaps exactly the same, as that of philosophers such as Clark Pinnock and Gregory Boyd. But I’m pretty sure the CC rejects it (although it allows for some variation on this issue). I know this leads into all kinds of puzzles and worries, but I’m pretty sure the CC considers God’s omniscience to be exact and unlimited, but that this exact, unlimited omniscience, even regarding the future, does not limit our freedom in any meaningful way.

Do I think your position as described is possible? Maybe. 🤷 But I think it would be difficult to square with the Bible (although both Pinnock and Boyd have biblical arguments for it), and, to directly answer your question, I don’t think it is accepted by the CC. (If I’m wrong, perhaps someone could step in with a definite citation or something like that?) :ouch:
 
God say’s he will wipe out our sins never to remember them ,to that effect anyway. The past will be no more … God can choose to not know . I think God limits himself in certain ways in order to enter into union with us. Jesus who reads all hearts also say’s to some 'I never knew you". A revelation of self is an intrinsic part of an intimate union. Just some thoughts.
 
I would be interested in seeing an official statement of the Church that this idea is rejected, and on why the idea is rejected, and on why the idea of covenental limits are not rejected.
 
Patrick7:

The short answer to your two questions is, yes and yes.

Reconciling God’s sovereignty with man’s actual free will is one tough theological nut to crack, and to date, it has not been cracked. All we have done is obtained what we hope is a clearer perspective.

If you would like to give your intellect one helluva rollercoaster ride, I would suggest two books for you. They are “Predestination” and “Providence”, written by the same Dominican priest, Father Reginald Garrigou-LaGrange.

Make sure you have a bottle of the headache medication of your preference, as these books, though readable, are deep.

MT
 
I would be interested in seeing an official statement of the Church that this idea is rejected, and on why the idea is rejected, and on why the idea of covenental limits are not rejected.
I did a (very quick and superficial) check through the CCC. Here’s what I found: Paragraph 268 says that “Of all the divine attributes, only omnipotence is named in the Creeds”; therefore, is that the only one specifically treated by the CCC? Paragraphs 1730-on discuss human freedom, but I didn’t see anything about God’s knowledge of the future.

So I guess I couldn’t find any good response to your question—at least, although there are several responses, I couldn’t find a good OFFICIAL one. :yawn: Good night now.
 
Thanks, I wasn’t aware of one either, and I am currently on my second cover to cover reading of the CCC as a group at my parish is going through the new United States Catholic Catechism for Adults. I also am reading for the first time cover to cover the Catechism of the Council of Trent. It is very interesting to see the same teachings expressed in similar but unique ways.

I also have the CCC in a MS Access database by paragraph that I made and I did a search of it as well and could not find anything.

But there are so many other sources I am certainly open to being corrected on this point.
 
I think what you are talking about, at least as far as I understand it, is called Neo-Socinianism and/ or a sort of liberal Arminianism. The idea is that God does not know or cannot know absolutely the future because of the many unknown consequences of decisions.

However, if I may be so bold, I would like to dispute this idea.

Remember that along with omnipotence is omniscience. God has perfect knowledge. It is not only that God knows the future, per se, but it is that in every situation God has a perfect and complete knowledge of every single, even the tiniest aspect, factor which leads to what appears to us to be an unknown outcome. If, however, God does have perfect knowledge, then He knows our motives, states of mind, pasts, emotions, everything about us, and because of this He can know what we will do in every situation we find ourselves in. Remember, it is not only that God knows the future because He exists otside of time as though He had already read the last chapter in the books of our lives, but rather, it is that He simultaneously knows every thought word and deed of every person animal plant weather, etc. in the entire whole of existence. Because of this, God can know the future without authoring it in such a way that it would violate our free will.

I don’t offer this as just an explanation, but as an idea which has raised my own consciousness and understanding. That if the universe is ruled by cause and effect, and because of this there cannot be any such thing and purely random chance (not to be confused with probability and the like) then it is concievable that God can act toward us in a fashion whereby He condescends (not a negative term) to our understanding and deals with us within the context of space and time and yet at the same time He is never suprised by our actions while not actually causing us to do what we do as if we were all some sort of pieces on a great cosmic chess board.

Remember, if such a thing were true, that God is the direct cause of everything we do, then God also authored the fall of Satan and man and would then be ultimately the author of sin, which the Bible absolutely disallows, btw this is why I don’t except Calvinism’s pov. What if though, God can be considered as St. Thomas’ First Cause, and in doing so He can create all things and give us free will by which He would not author our sins and failures while at the same time, because of His perfect knowledge, be able to wait for us that He can help us to pick up the pieces.
 
Here is the way I see the problem. If God knows everything, then He knows what we are going to do for any choice we are presented. But for a choice to be really a choice it means that we must be able to do one of at least two different things. But if God knows what we are going to choose, and He can never be wrong, then we would really have to choose that one choice He already knows. Otherwise to choose the other choice would be to make Him out to be wrong. This is not a real choice, so it is not a real free will.

There is a description of this to be found in Newcomb’s Paradox.

Newcomb’s paradox, named after its creator, physicist William Newcomb, is one of the most widely debated paradoxes of recent times. The paradox goes like this:
A highly superior being from another part of the galaxy presents you with two boxes, one open and one closed. In the open box there is a thousand-dollar bill. In the closed box there is either one million dollars or there is nothing. You are to choose between taking both boxes, or taking the closed box only. But there’s a catch.
The being claims that he is able to predict what any human being will decide to do. If he predicted you would take only the closed box, then he placed a million dollars in it. But if he predicted you would take both boxes, he left the closed box empty. Furthermore, he has run this experiment with 999 people before, and has been right every time.

What do you do?

On the one hand, the evidence is fairly obvious that if you choose to take only the closed box you will get one million dollars, whereas if you take both boxes you get only a measly thousand. You’d be stupid to take both boxes.

On the other hand, at the time you make your decision, the closed box already is empty or else contains a million dollars. Either way, if you take both boxes you get a thousand dollars more than if you take the closed box only.

The expected-utility principle (based on the probability of each outcome) argues that you should take the closed box only. The dominance principle, however, says that if one strategy is always better, no matter what the circumstances, then you should pick it. And no matter what the closed box contains, you are $1000 richer if you take both boxes than if you take the closed one only.

One can make the argument for taking both boxes even more vivid by changing the setup a bit. For instance, suppose that the closed box is open on the face opposing you, so that you can’t see its contents but an experiment moderator can. The moderator is watching you decide between one box and both boxes, and the money is there in front of his eyes. Wouldn’t he think you are a fool for not taking both boxes?

But lets modify the puzzle one more step - let’s replace the highly superior alien with the all knowing God. He knows what you are going to do – either take the closed box with a million or both boxes and He has left the closed box empty. Is there any contest in this any more? Is there any puzzle for you to even resolve? No! Because you have no real choice in front of you. What you will do is what you have been forced to do by God either putting the million in the box (based on His knowledge of what you will do) or not (again based on His knowledge of what you will do). There is nothing to even ponder, or to attempt to figure out the best solution. When it was a superior but possibly fallible being trying to predict your behavior there might have been some reason to try to figure out a way to beat the system. But with an all knowing, infallible God doing the money placement all you can do is act. And the only way you can act is to do precisely what he already knows you will do. No choice, no free will.
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bogeydogg:
Remember, it is not only that God knows the future because He exists otside of time as though He had already read the last chapter in the books of our lives, but rather, it is that He simultaneously knows every thought word and deed of every person animal plant weather, etc. in the entire whole of existence. Because of this, God can know the future without authoring it in such a way that it would violate our free will.
How does this not violate freewill? This may explain how God can know all things (which is not the question) it does not explain how it leaves us with a truly free choice in any given instance.
 
Here is the way I see the problem. If God knows everything, then He knows what we are going to do for any choice we are presented. But for a choice to be really a choice it means that we must be able to do one of at least two different things. But if God knows what we are going to choose, and He can never be wrong, then we would really have to choose that one choice He already knows. Otherwise to choose the other choice would be to make Him out to be wrong. This is not a real choice, so it is not a real free will.
Okay, look at it this way. Here are two propositions:
  1. God knows I will raise my hand in two minutes.
  2. Everything God knows infallibly comes to pass.
Here are two possible conclusions one might take from this:

3a. I will raise my hand in two minutes.
3b. IT IS NECESSARY THAT I will raise my hand in two minutes.

If God’s knowledge is infallible, I would take 3a as necessarily true. However, 3b doesn’t seem necessarily true—that is, God’s infallible knowledge doesn’t seem to be the causally necessitating factor in my decision. Thus God’s knowledge would still be complete, but I would still have freedom at the point of raising my hand. Yes?
 
Okay, look at it this way. Here are two propositions:
  1. God knows I will raise my hand in two minutes.
  2. Everything God knows infallibly comes to pass.
Here are two possible conclusions one might take from this:

3a. I will raise my hand in two minutes.
3b. IT IS NECESSARY THAT I will raise my hand in two minutes.

If God’s knowledge is infallible, I would take 3a as necessarily true. However, 3b doesn’t seem necessarily true—that is, God’s infallible knowledge doesn’t seem to be the causally necessitating factor in my decision. Thus God’s knowledge would still be complete, but I would still have freedom at the point of raising my hand. Yes?
No.

How is 3b not necessarily true?

If you do not necessarily raise your hand in 2 minutes then God was wrong. In order for Him to remain infallible, you must NECESSARILY raise your hand in two minutes.
 
you will necessarily raise your hand in two minutes if God knows it. 😃

That isn’t causing it. Just as knowing that you raised your hand two minutes ago doesn’t cause it.
 
you will necessarily raise your hand in two minutes if God knows it. 😃

That isn’t causing it. Just as knowing that you raised your hand two minutes ago doesn’t cause it.
No, what is causing it, is our inability to make God out to be wrong. We cannot act so as to impact God’s infallibility. It is no different than if we had an irresistible force pulling our hand up. We don’t think of ourselves as being free if there is some force causing us to do something.
 
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