L
Lisa44
Guest
Please show me where in sacred scripture it says that God loves Satan and the demons.
- Status
P
PazzoGrande
Guest
While we’re on the topic of Aquinas then, I do speculate, from where did he get his views on the heirarchy of angels? And which order did Satan and/or Lucifer (I read that they are actually two different demons) come from? Apparently the saints differed in their opinion of which ranks are higher than the others.
I ask this because as I understand it, the chief angel is Michael, even though his angelic species is near the bottom, but evidently species doesn’t relate to the sanctity of the angel.
What rank was Satan and/or Lucifer? And how did Aquinas and the other saints come up with their theories about the rankings?
I ask this because as I understand it, the chief angel is Michael, even though his angelic species is near the bottom, but evidently species doesn’t relate to the sanctity of the angel.
What rank was Satan and/or Lucifer? And how did Aquinas and the other saints come up with their theories about the rankings?
S
SanAgustin
Guest
Thanks for your and Evoken’s reply.
Yes, that kind of makes sense. I notice Aquinas does make those subtle distinctions on different categories of how to love, so I guess I always misread that to be a general “we’re not supposed to love demons” when it’s supposed “we’re not supposed to love demons out of charity”.
A
Anathama_Sit
Guest
Please tell me why you refuse to also accept Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of the Cathlolic Church?
You are very convinced of your erroroneous beliefs. I can do no more. I am not conceding because you are right. I am withdrawing, because it seems you are bent on hanging onto your “belief” thought it has been demonstrated to be wrong or questionable at the least.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
R
Rocks_91
Guest
“God is love.” What about that don’t you understand?
God is purely love. He cannot hate. When the scriptures say that he hates something, it’s in metaphorical terms. Because we don’t know God perfectly, we have to express him in human terms. God hates nothing, but because his nature is altogether good, evil cannot abide in him. Satan and the demons cannot see God, not because God hates them, but because they have blinded themselves to him by rejecting him. Yet, they still exist, because God sustains their existence by his love. If God for one moment stopped loving, all of creation would disappear in an iota. But he cannot stop loving, because his very nature is love.
Oh, looks like I stumbled into the philosophy forum.
B
BrunoMaria
Guest
How can anyone ever claim “God can not…” To God all is possible - Mt 19,26.
God certainly did NOT create Satan, as nothing bad originates from God. Satan “created” himself, when he and his legions turned from a good Angel into a rebel against God.
God of course doesn’t love Satan, who even tempted Jesus Christ. God hates Satan and condemned him to everlasting eternal punishment. This goes throughout all Biblical statements about Satan, from Genesis 3,1 to Apocalypse 22, and God’s enemyship against Satan is founded by Lucifer - not by God - but it’s eternal - expressed in Gen 3.15 (where Jesus nailing to the cross is predicted - with Satan piercing Jesus’ heel - “you shall bruise His heel” and throughout the Bible.
How on earth could anyone imagine, that God, who as we hear here even “loves Satan” would do such thing to the devil as banning him from heaven into hell as we read in dozens of Biblical verses - or this one in Apoc 20,10: and the devil … was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur … and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
God certainly did NOT create Satan, as nothing bad originates from God. Satan “created” himself, when he and his legions turned from a good Angel into a rebel against God.
God of course doesn’t love Satan, who even tempted Jesus Christ. God hates Satan and condemned him to everlasting eternal punishment. This goes throughout all Biblical statements about Satan, from Genesis 3,1 to Apocalypse 22, and God’s enemyship against Satan is founded by Lucifer - not by God - but it’s eternal - expressed in Gen 3.15 (where Jesus nailing to the cross is predicted - with Satan piercing Jesus’ heel - “you shall bruise His heel” and throughout the Bible.
How on earth could anyone imagine, that God, who as we hear here even “loves Satan” would do such thing to the devil as banning him from heaven into hell as we read in dozens of Biblical verses - or this one in Apoc 20,10: and the devil … was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur … and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
L
Lisa44
Guest
Matthew 25: 41
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the** eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. **
Apocalypse 12:7-9
And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels: and they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
1 John 3:8
In this the children of God are manifest and the children of the devil: for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God appeared, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:15
And anyone whose name was not found writen in the book of life** was thrown into the lake of fire.**
Revelation 21:6
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–**their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. **This is the second death.”
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the** eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. **
Apocalypse 12:7-9
And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels: and they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
1 John 3:8
In this the children of God are manifest and the children of the devil: for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God appeared, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:15
And anyone whose name was not found writen in the book of life** was thrown into the lake of fire.**
Revelation 21:6
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–**their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. **This is the second death.”
A
Anathama_Sit
Guest
Greetings Lisa44,
And no where in these quoted Scriptures do I see that we are to hate the demons. IF you can find in Scripture where it explicitly says for us to hate demons or that God hates demons. I might just consider what you have to say.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
A
Anathama_Sit
Guest
Greetings Lisa44,
Please show me a Catholic theologian with good credentials who agrees with your point of view, and I will consider what you are saying. And what I mean by good credentials, is a Catholic theologian who follows and believes ALL of the Teachings of the Magisterium and Sacred Tradition as well as Sacred Scripture.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
Please show me a Catholic theologian with good credentials who agrees with your point of view, and I will consider what you are saying. And what I mean by good credentials, is a Catholic theologian who follows and believes ALL of the Teachings of the Magisterium and Sacred Tradition as well as Sacred Scripture.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
T
tonyrey
Guest
The question suggests that God loves all His creatures in the same way - which is obviously false. If He ceased to love Satan it would be logical to let him disappear. The fact that Satan has not ceased to exist demonstrates that God still loves him. The only alternative is that God needs to hate him - which is obviously absurd. 
L
Lisa44
Guest
No.The question suggests that God loves all His creatures in the same way - which is obviously false. If He ceased to love Satan it would be logical to let him disappear. The fact that Satan has not ceased to exist demonstrates that God still loves him. The only alternative is that God needs to hate him - which is obviously absurd.
Why would his lack of love for Satan make him disappear?
Is that what the bible says, if you cease to love God you will disappear?
Doesn’t the bible say if you go against God you will go to Hell?
Isn’t that where Satan is, in hell?
He is exactly where God says that we will all be if we go against God: in everlasting fire.
Now, ask yourself, do I put the things I love into a pit of fire in my backyard?
Do I put my pets in a pit of fire? How about my children? No, because you LOVE them.
The only reasonable ASSUMPTION would be that God withdraws his love for you. He ceases to love you when he sends you to Hell. He is in effect, destroying you. The bible says that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. And all those who follow the devil end up where he is, with him in hell. The bible says that we are either children of God or we are children of the devil. If God puts the devil in eternal fire then where do you think he will put the children of the devil?
What happens when we roast a pig to eat? Do we not destroy the pig when we roast it over the fire? Do we LOVE the pig when we decide to eat it? No, we only want the meat so we kill the pig. We don’t care for the pig anymore, we are DESTROYING the pig’s life.
Just think about hell for awhile, and think about whether or not God loves those he has sent to Hell for all of eternity.
T
tonyrey
Guest
You haven’t explained why God keeps Satan in existence if “He is in effect destroying you”. God is the Creator not the Destroyer…
BTW I’m a vegetarian - although I used to eat meat. I felt twenty years younger within a few months of giving it up!
L
Lisa44
Guest
You haven’t explained why God keeps Satan in existence if “He is in effect destroying you”. God is the Creator not the Destroyer…
BTW I’m a vegetarian - although I used to eat meat. I felt twenty years younger within a few months of giving it up!
me too.God is a creator but he also destroys. Remember the flood? Sodom and Gomorrah?
God cast Satan and his cohorts to earth, where he rules. You are asking me why God did this? I don’t know?
Maybe the angels cannot be killed, and can only be “contained” some place.
Since they are spirit and not flesh.
When I speak of destroying us in hell, I speak of the destruction of our souls, which are not flesh and do not die.
He gave us free will and so he had to know that we would have the potential to reject him.
And this is evidently part of his plan. To see who will follow him and who will reject him (follow Satan).
D
Dranu
Guest
I say yes.
Love=willing the good.
God only loves (to suggest God does more than one thing is to suggest complexity or change). The good of the devil, since he is past redemption/repentance, is eternal torment and damnation according to the devil’s free act of will. So yes, God loves the devil since the devil’s lot is hell. That’s my thoughts on it anyhow.
Love=willing the good.
God only loves (to suggest God does more than one thing is to suggest complexity or change). The good of the devil, since he is past redemption/repentance, is eternal torment and damnation according to the devil’s free act of will. So yes, God loves the devil since the devil’s lot is hell. That’s my thoughts on it anyhow.
D
Discipulo
Guest
God does not cast one into Hell Satan and those who reject God CHOOSE so, there is a revelation that the Church has not yet approved but I think is pretty interesting, the nun stated that the souls who die still have a choice to go to Hell or Heaven and those who do not choose to go to Heaven do so out of their free will, out of utter hatred of God. Here is an analogy, you have a husband and wife who love one another very much, the husband starts to cheat on his wife with another woman, eventually he leaves her for the other woman and despises his old wife, its not his wife who changed but him, and he willfully leaves her for another. I think Satan and all immortal souls are loved by God, God is incapable of hatred and in order for you not to exist the Lord would have to not think of you just for one second, but that does not happen.
T
tonyrey
Guest
I don’t believe the God of Love ever destroys. He permits destruction because it is an inevitable consequence of physicality and free will.
God is a creator but he also destroys. Remember the flood? Sodom and Gomorrah?
God cast Satan and his cohorts to earth, where he rules. You are asking me why God did this? I don’t know?
Maybe the angels cannot be killed, and can only be “contained” some place.
Since they are spirit and not flesh.
When I speak of destroying us in hell, I speak of the destruction of our souls, which are not flesh and do not die.
He gave us free will and so he had to know that we would have the potential to reject him.
And this is evidently part of his plan. To see who will follow him and who will reject him (follow Satan).
We will have to agree to differ because this issue depends on your concept of God - which differs from mine…
A
Anathama_Sit
Guest
Greetings Lisa44,
I don’t know why I keep responding. Perhaps it is because I am surprised that this thread is not being closed. Or perhaps becuase I am feeling a need to reply to some of your questions or statements. Or perhaps both. And so here is my response.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
I don’t know why I keep responding. Perhaps it is because I am surprised that this thread is not being closed. Or perhaps becuase I am feeling a need to reply to some of your questions or statements. Or perhaps both. And so here is my response.
Finally some common ground we can agree on.
Yes it does. Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church supports this as well.
Not now, he is roaming too and fro looking for souls to ruin and drag down to Hell.
Hell is not just a pit of fire in my backyard. It is more than this. God loves with an unconditional love and if people and the fallen angels choose to reject them, he honors their love by giving them what they sought after, a life devoid of God.
I don’t like the smell of burned animals. As to children well I don’t have any. So this argument really does not work for me. If an argument does not work for one person, it cannot be applied universally.
Assumption. I like that, a lot of what you are posting are your personal assumptions. This I can deal with, instead of passing off what you are posting to be the truth as you have done in prior posts.
God cannot cease to love anyone. God cannot cease to Love. If He does, God ceases to be Love. For if God could cease to love, he would not be perfect in Love. And the Church teaches in Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium of the Church that God is Perfect in ALL [and this includes Love] of the Attributes [good that is].
God does not destroy. We destroy ourselves by the choices that we make.
I don’t know where to begin on this one. Suffice it to say you are taking this verse way out of context. Notice that God will destroy the WORKS of the devil, and not the devil. He puts those who choose to reject him in hell because that is what they freely choose. They choose evil actions and an evil stance, but this does not make them evil.
Bad example, the pig ceases to be, though his outer shell remains. We will exist for all eternity. This example does not apply to humans or fallen angels.
Last time I checked love was not a requirement to eat something. And again this example does not support your position.
God does love those he has sent to Hell for all of eternity. You seem to know quite a bit about God and seem bent on limiting Him by fitting Him to your predefined standards. Why?
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
A
Anathama_Sit
Guest
Greetings Lisa44,
And no it is not because God hates Satan or his cohorts.
Yes but he did not destroy the souls of those who perished in such events.God is a creator but he also destroys. Remember the flood? Sodom and Gomorrah?
You should check out what is taught why God did this. It’s in the Bible.
And no it is not because God hates Satan or his cohorts.Angels cannot be killed. And neither can our souls be killed. You are right in this.
[/QUOTE]
B
BrunoMaria
Guest
some say: Quotes are marked blue
We are not to judge, because we are unable to look into the heart of a person, nor do we know if this person we tend to name our enemy, is much more in the eye of God, then we ourselves ever will be. Even if he is a blasphemer and disbeliever and even a thug, we never know if he like Paul, returns and becomes a Saint. I know several blasphemers, but I’m very friendly to them, though they know very clearly and I told them, that I hate blasphemy. Would I though hate them and turn away, they rightly would be convinced, that this behavior of mine is anti-Christian and lacks love, so is no better them them.
Is there any greater sin after his first sin to rebel against God; then to tempt Jesus Christ?! (Mat 4,1-11; Marc 1,12.13; Luke 3,1-13) How could anyone ask if “God loves Satan”. It shows outmost thoughtlessness and carelessness about divine things.
I was asked in a forum many years ago: “Ah - Satan’s temptation of Jesus was actually a terribly silly thing and nothing but a senseless doing things for the sake of doing things”.
Wrong! As wrong as can be!
This most ugly temptation was meant to indeed hurt God the Father - even at the outmost possible! It even would have shaken the whole creation of heaven and earth to the very foundations. Jesus Christ was send by The Father in His overwhelming love, to by free will of The Son, save humanity from the condemnation they had maneuvered themselves into, by outsized extensive sinning - then as today.
Now; Jesus came upon our earth to save many. Though God want’s all to be saved, but a vast majority doesn’t want to be saved, and shouts: “God is a liar”. Disbelievers do name Christ a liar, when they do not believe in Jesus’ word; discount it as fairy tale, manmade - a lie.
So, Jesus who knew that all His indescribable terribly suffering, still just saves a minority (Lk 13,24 and others) was promised by Satan: >Hell will let all those lost to God; make them return to God instead clinging to Satan’s lies<. This would have been easy, simply by showing his true face to the world. If Satan did; all would be so shocked, that they’d run to God and beg to be allowed to belief. All in a sudden all would be good and even Saints.
So, Satan’s temptation of Jesus, was hell’s master plan, to insult and hurt God even unmatchably harder than in the first rebellion, for it would have destroyed Jesus Christ.
Now why on earth is it thinkable to hell, that Jesus would agree to this temptation?
Simply because of Jesus overwhelming love to all people God created. This step would not only fulfill God The Father’s will to save all who believe, but it also would fulfill God’s wish to save ALL people altogether. The hugest temptation one can think of and the largest attack against God ever in Satan’s and the universe’s history.
Jesus denied and painfully realized, that all of God’ merciful, incredible deeds to save all, to a majority will remain in vain and only many will be saved - not all as God desires. But Jesus rebuked Satan, for He knew that the loss of Jesus Christ would have meant to God such an unthinkable disaster, that hell could easily abandon all living humans for this present. The actual victory of heavens; was Jesus’ refusal of this indeed tremendous temptation that figured on Jesus’ altruism.
I here in a few humble words tried to outline one of the most complex situations the Gospel in only few words mentions. One of those things our heart and mind overflows, but hardly can be put into words nor concluding comprehension - but meditation on the subject helps.
Anyhow: This most ugly temptation of Christ is but one of the very many reasons God really does not love Satan! What an abstruse idea and thoughtless question.
Yours
Bruno
Of course we must. But there is a very simple reason: The reason of LOVE YOUR ENEMY, becaus we are not to judge - so we won’t be judged. (Mt 7,1 + Lk 6,37 and others).
We are not to judge, because we are unable to look into the heart of a person, nor do we know if this person we tend to name our enemy, is much more in the eye of God, then we ourselves ever will be. Even if he is a blasphemer and disbeliever and even a thug, we never know if he like Paul, returns and becomes a Saint. I know several blasphemers, but I’m very friendly to them, though they know very clearly and I told them, that I hate blasphemy. Would I though hate them and turn away, they rightly would be convinced, that this behavior of mine is anti-Christian and lacks love, so is no better them them.
No, for Satan is judged by God to be off God in eternity. Lucifer and his legions committed a greater sin than the greatest sin possible on earth, for he - other than any human on earth, had seen God and known Him from face to face. The devil is abysmally bad and the father of all badness and temptation. All that causes God’s wrath and not love. So; how can anyone say “God loves Satan”.
No. Satan does not flee God’s love, he’d be proud to gain God’s love and even forgiveness. Both to him is never to be had or regained. So; how can anyone say “God loves Satan”. It even hurts me deeply to write such sentence here.
Both have. Satan’s poison is his well tasting and lovely seeming temptations even then, when in the back of our mind the loud voice of our guardian angel is warningly heard.
Is there any greater sin after his first sin to rebel against God; then to tempt Jesus Christ?! (Mat 4,1-11; Marc 1,12.13; Luke 3,1-13) How could anyone ask if “God loves Satan”. It shows outmost thoughtlessness and carelessness about divine things.
I was asked in a forum many years ago: “Ah - Satan’s temptation of Jesus was actually a terribly silly thing and nothing but a senseless doing things for the sake of doing things”.
Wrong! As wrong as can be!
This most ugly temptation was meant to indeed hurt God the Father - even at the outmost possible! It even would have shaken the whole creation of heaven and earth to the very foundations. Jesus Christ was send by The Father in His overwhelming love, to by free will of The Son, save humanity from the condemnation they had maneuvered themselves into, by outsized extensive sinning - then as today.
Now; Jesus came upon our earth to save many. Though God want’s all to be saved, but a vast majority doesn’t want to be saved, and shouts: “God is a liar”. Disbelievers do name Christ a liar, when they do not believe in Jesus’ word; discount it as fairy tale, manmade - a lie.
So, Jesus who knew that all His indescribable terribly suffering, still just saves a minority (Lk 13,24 and others) was promised by Satan: >Hell will let all those lost to God; make them return to God instead clinging to Satan’s lies<. This would have been easy, simply by showing his true face to the world. If Satan did; all would be so shocked, that they’d run to God and beg to be allowed to belief. All in a sudden all would be good and even Saints.
So, Satan’s temptation of Jesus, was hell’s master plan, to insult and hurt God even unmatchably harder than in the first rebellion, for it would have destroyed Jesus Christ.
Now why on earth is it thinkable to hell, that Jesus would agree to this temptation?
Simply because of Jesus overwhelming love to all people God created. This step would not only fulfill God The Father’s will to save all who believe, but it also would fulfill God’s wish to save ALL people altogether. The hugest temptation one can think of and the largest attack against God ever in Satan’s and the universe’s history.
Jesus denied and painfully realized, that all of God’ merciful, incredible deeds to save all, to a majority will remain in vain and only many will be saved - not all as God desires. But Jesus rebuked Satan, for He knew that the loss of Jesus Christ would have meant to God such an unthinkable disaster, that hell could easily abandon all living humans for this present. The actual victory of heavens; was Jesus’ refusal of this indeed tremendous temptation that figured on Jesus’ altruism.
I here in a few humble words tried to outline one of the most complex situations the Gospel in only few words mentions. One of those things our heart and mind overflows, but hardly can be put into words nor concluding comprehension - but meditation on the subject helps.
Anyhow: This most ugly temptation of Christ is but one of the very many reasons God really does not love Satan! What an abstruse idea and thoughtless question.
Yours
Bruno
L
Lisa44
Guest
Do you disagree with the verses I quoted from the bible:
Matthew 25: 41
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
1 John 3:8
In this the children of God are manifest and the children of the devil: for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God appeared, that** He might destroy **the works of the devil.
- Status