Does God love Satan?

[tqualey]

Hi, Bsy,

I think we need to make a distinction between the person and their actions. While we look at Gen 1 and see that everything God (Pure Love Itself [1John 4:8]) created (and this includes more than the heavens and earth) was not only good - but VERY good, we can guess that for at least a time, Satan fit this description. Then came the test for the angels and Satan and his followers - and they freely chose to follow their own will and not that of God. It is at this point that Hell and torment was created for these spirits (Matt 25:41). So, while (I think) we all agree on this description - I am at a loss to when God stopped loving His creature Satan.

For humans who choose to follow Satan and ultimately join him in Hell for all eternity - do you think God has stopped loving them?

I have no problem with a lake of fire and sulphur as a real entity - along with worms that do not die… and, any thing else from Revelations one wishes to identify. But, creating a place of punishment and the torments that go with it does not rule out love.

In arguning that God does not love Satan one is arguing that God is not All Love. God loves all of His creation - but the evil that willful creatures commit is an offense aganst the Goodness of God. We as people are to love the sinner but hate the sin - don’t you think that God can do the same?

God bless

I strongly believe NO…loving Satan means loving all the EVIL WAYS of Satan. God would have kept Satan in Heaven or a temporary place if Satan has some sort of redemption.

In fact, Revelation speaks of Satan’s doom 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Lisa44]

There is nothing to discuss because you reject outright an non-literal interpretation of Revelation…

I never said that!

 

[Lisa44]

Hi, Bsy,

I think we need to make a distinction between the person and their actions. While we look at Gen 1 and see that everything God (Pure Love Itself [1John 4:8]) created (and this includes more than the heavens and earth) was not only good - but VERY good, we can guess that for at least a time, Satan fit this description. Then came the test for the angels and Satan and his followers - and they freely chose to follow their own will and not that of God. It is at this point that Hell and torment was created for these spirits (Matt 25:41). So, while (I think) we all agree on this description - I am at a loss to when God stopped loving His creature Satan.

For humans who choose to follow Satan and ultimately join him in Hell for all eternity - do you think God has stopped loving them?

I have no problem with a lake of fire and sulphur as a real entity - along with worms that do not die… and, any thing else from Revelations one wishes to identify. But, creating a place of punishment and the torments that go with it does not rule out love.
In arguning that God does not love Satan one is arguing that God is not All Love. God loves all of His creation - but the evil that willful creatures commit is an offense aganst the Goodness of God. We as people are to love the sinner but hate the sin - don’t you think that God can do the same?

God bless

Hi,
I’m glad you don’t have a problem with it because it is written in the bible!
I thank you for advancing the argument one step further by stating that “creating a place of punishment and the torments that go with it does not rule out love.”

But its not just a place of punishment, it is a place of ETERNAL punishment.

Revelations explains that sometimes God punishes for a time, and then sometimes it is FINAL.

We are talking about a FINAL PERMANENT punishment that is eternal. Never to be changed or ended.

 

[BrunoMaria]

I can’t agree when people think of hell of continuous torment in ever so earthly terms like fire etc.

To be departed from God is far more burning than any fire. Let’s imagine the delinquent get’s into a hell that’s like earth, and he’s got every comfort our earth provides. Great food, great drinks as much as he likes, all comfort, lots of treasures, the lot.
But:
He has seen God and knows, he will never in all eternity be with God, but instead in this dead "splendor of that world…

What’s a harder punishment than this?! Fire? Ha - he’d lough about it and take is as a REHA.

needless to say, that I disagree 100% with that above my last post:

In arguning that God does not love Satan one is arguing that God is not All Love. God loves all of His creation - but the evil that willful creatures commit is an offense aganst the Goodness of God.<

God did NOT create Satan - but God created an Angel by the name of Lucifer, who later decided to be against God, and so changed himself into a devil - Satan.
How could God love this daemon, God himself banned from heaven for ever and ever.

Yours
Bruno

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Lisa44,

Yes, I, too, am happy that you are in agreement with what I have said… The fact that it is eternal was understood when I said the worm that does not die … but, it certainly would not have hurt to say, ‘eternal torment’. And, there you have it.

God loves all of His creation. There is no time limit. My focus, however, is more on those creatures with immortality as their being - angels and humans. While some may claim that, ‘All dogs go to heaven’ that is not the focus…

The position I have tried to clarify is that God is Love and loves all of His Creation - and will continue to love His creatures wherever they will be spending all eternity. Nothiing in your post indicates that eternal punishment = non-love (hate?). So, I will take the idea that you too think God loves Satan. Note: this does not mean He loves the evil done by Satan - simply that Satan is part of God’s creation adn God loves His creation.

God bless

Hi,
I’m glad you don’t have a problem with it because it is written in the bible!
I thank you for advancing the argument one step further by stating that “creating a place of punishment and the torments that go with it does not rule out love.”

But its not just a place of punishment, it is a place of ETERNAL punishment.

Revelations explains that sometimes God punishes for a time, and then sometimes it is FINAL.

We are talking about a FINAL PERMANENT punishment that is eternal. Never to be changed or ended.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, BrunoMaria,

Not really … the pain of loss is the most profound pain - but, this does not negate the real aspect of fire as what the Catholic Church teaches. Here is a quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia (and the link if you would like to read the entire section newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm) :

God bless

**The poena sensus, or pain of sense, consists in the torment of fire so frequently mentioned in the Holy Bible. According to the greater number of theologians the term fire denotes a material fire, and so a real fire. We hold to this teaching as absolutely true and correct. However, we must not forget two things: from Catharinus (d. 1553) to our times there have never been wanting theologians who interpret the Scriptural term fire metaphorically, as denoting an incorporeal fire; and secondly, thus far the Church has not censured their opinion. Some few of the Fathers also thought of a metaphorical explanation. Nevertheless, Scripture and tradition speak again and again of the fire of hell, and there is no sufficient reason for taking the term as a mere metaphor. It is urged: How can a material fire torment demons, or human souls before the resurrection of the body? But, if our soul is so joined to the body as to be keenly sensitive to the pain of fire, why should the omnipotent God be unable to bind even pure spirits to some material substance in such a manner that they suffer a torment more or less similar to the pain of fire which the soul can feel on earth? The reply indicates, as far as possible, how we may form an idea of the pain of fire which the demons suffer. Theologians have elaborated various theories on this subject, which, however, we do not wish to detail here (cf. the very minute study by Franz Schmid, “Quaestiones selectae ex theol. dogm.”, Paderborn, 1891, q. iii; also Guthberlet, “Die poena sensus” in “Katholik”, II, 1901, 305 sqq., 385 sqq.). **

I can’t agree when people think of hell of continuous torment in ever so earthly terms like fire etc.

To be departed from God is far more burning than any fire. Let’s imagine the delinquent get’s into a hell that’s like earth, and he’s got every comfort our earth provides. Great food, great drinks as much as he likes, all comfort, lots of treasures, the lot.
But:
He has seen God and knows, he will never in all eternity be with God, but instead in this dead "splendor of that world…

What’s a harder punishment than this?! Fire? Ha - he’d lough about it and take is as a REHA.

needless to say, that I disagree 100% with that above my last post:

In arguning that God does not love Satan one is arguing that God is not All Love. God loves all of His creation - but the evil that willful creatures commit is an offense aganst the Goodness of God.<

 

[Lisa44]

Hi, Lisa44,

Yes, I, too, am happy that you are in agreement with what I have said… The fact that it is eternal was understood when I said the worm that does not die … but, it certainly would not have hurt to say, ‘eternal torment’. And, there you have it.

God loves all of His creation. There is no time limit. My focus, however, is more on those creatures with immortality as their being - angels and humans. While some may claim that, ‘All dogs go to heaven’ that is not the focus…

The position I have tried to clarify is that God is Love and loves all of His Creation - and will continue to love His creatures wherever they will be spending all eternity. Nothiing in your post indicates that eternal punishment = non-love (hate?). So, I will take the idea that you too think God loves Satan. Note: this does not mean He loves the evil done by Satan - simply that Satan is part of God’s creation adn God loves His creation.

God bless

Ohh, no, no, no, no. I never said that God loves Satan.
I state that the eternal punishment he will inflict on him is evidence that God does not love him.

 

[tonyrey]

I never said that!

On that happy note I shall retire gracefully!

God bless you.

 

[BrunoMaria]

Servus Tom and all

I think it’s ever so redundand, if we argue if in hell is real fire or not. We will all seen and hopefully see from heaven’s perspective

However: I remember our priest over almost 70 years ago now, when he taught us the subject “Religion” in school, and I cited this very good Priest by the name of Jung, when I kept saying: "Don’t ever think God’s find’s it satisfactory to punish anyone in the Hell with this dreadful ides of actual FIRE in hell, whre people really burn like on those devilish ancient stake [punishment of death by burning]. God far more so is ad about the fact, that these - his own people - decided to refuse God and for pro-bad, and so had to be banned to Hell. One day however, hell will be banned so far off heaven and all, that hell will not even come back to mind to anyone; for otherwise all would feel sorry one day for them in hell. So, what we name as fire, is the fire that burn in you, when you are homesick. And which homesickness could burn more, than that of being homesick for God one voluntary lost in life and now will never se again - once all have seen God when being judged. This is even far harder - not to be with God when having seen God once - than any fire we can think of.

But still - why argue about things we will anyhow see one day and things however, that are not relevant or decisive for our being within God, Church and belief.
If one wants to see Hell as a real fire or not - really doesn’t alter our relation to God.

Yours
Bruno

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Bruno,

Any comment on post #146?

Here is another item from Catholic Apologetics that may be helpful.

God bless

(1) Nature of Hell-fire

As we have said, the reality of Hell-fire cannot be denied without offence to the faith.

But to say that it is real is altogether different from saying that it is of the same nature as the material fire of earth.

The scholastic theologians and some moderns think that there is no essential difference between the two kinds of fire, and their opinion is by no means without foundation.

M. Brassac writes:

“It has not been defined that the fire of Hell is material. . . Yet it must not be forgotten that the word fire, or flame, is used to designate it at least eight times in the Gospels, and thirty times in the New Testament as a whole. This would not be understand*able unless the torment of fire, the most terrible we know, had a close connection with the torment of Hell, and were the best fitted to give us an idea of its severity” (Manuel Biblique, 1908, t. III, p. 590).

While granting this notion of a close connection, we may add that earthly fire ought not, it seems, to be taken as a complete representation of Hell-fire. For, according to Scripture itself, there are striking differences between the two:

•      the fire of earth is produced by chemical action, the fire of Hell is kindled by the anger of God;

•      the one cannot touch the soul except by acting upon and through the body, the other attacks the soul directly and immediately;

•      the one may be quenched, the other can never be;

•      the one gives light, the other gloom and darkness;

•      the one burns and consumes, the other burns but destroys not its victims.

We think, therefore, that both reason and revela*tion are better served by not asserting that the two fires have the same specific nature.

Provided that we safeguard the reality of Hell-fire, there is no reason why we should not take even its nature as being simply analogous with that of earthly fire, and this opinion seems likely to become more and more common among theologians.

It is not a new opinion; it was propounded explicitly by Lactantius and St. John of Damascus.

St. Thomas, defending the latter, says:

“He does not altogether deny that the fire of Hell is material; he says it is not material in the same way as our fire is” (Sup*pl. q. 97, a.3).

The Dominican, Père Hugon, uses almost the same words:

“This fire is not metaphorical; it is real, but this is not to say material like our fire” (Réponses théologiques, p. 205).

Similarly Passaglia:

“In affirming the reality of Hell-fire, we do not say that it is the same as the fire of earth.”

We agree then fully with Fr. Hurter (Theol. dogmat. t. III, no. 799) when he says that the fire of Hell differs from that of earth both in its nature and in its properties, natura et indole.

Servus Tom and all

I think it’s ever so redundand, if we argue if in hell is real fire or not. We will all seen and hopefully see from heaven’s perspective

However: I remember our priest over almost 70 years ago now, when he taught us the subject “Religion” in school, and I cited this very good Priest by the name of Jung, when I kept saying: "Don’t ever think God’s find’s it satisfactory to punish anyone in the Hell with this dreadful ides of actual FIRE in hell, whre people really burn like on those devilish ancient stake [punishment of death by burning]. God far more so is ad about the fact, that these - his own people - decided to refuse God and for pro-bad, and so had to be banned to Hell. One day however, hell will be banned so far off heaven and all, that hell will not even come back to mind to anyone; for otherwise all would feel sorry one day for them in hell. So, what we name as fire, is the fire that burn in you, when you are homesick. And which homesickness could burn more, than that of being homesick for God one voluntary lost in life and now will never se again - once all have seen God when being judged. This is even far harder - not to be with God when having seen God once - than any fire we can think of.

But still - why argue about things we will anyhow see one day and things however, that are not relevant or decisive for our being within God, Church and belief.
If one wants to see Hell as a real fire or not - really doesn’t alter our relation to God.

Yours
Bruno

 

[tqualey]

Hi,Lisa44,

Here is excerpt from Catholic Apologetics - and it really does look like God loves all of His creatures - even Satan! The link to the entire section is provided at the end.

God bless

1. St. Thomas Aquinas, our guide, often explains how the natural love of God as the supreme Good, persists, both in the demons and the lost. (cfr. Sum. Theol. I, q. 64, and Compend. Theol. cap. 174.)

As we have already seen, in the introductory chapter, dis*carnate spirits, who know and love themselves with a knowledge and love that are spontaneous and ever actual, have likewise an always actual knowledge and love of God. And since they know God as the Supreme Good, they love Him even more than they can love themselves.

But this spontaneous and natural impulse of love is an undeliberate act of the will. The reason of this spontaneous desire of God lies in the fact that pure spirits and disembodied souls apprehend the Supreme Good, not by way of abstraction as we do now, but as it were, in the concrete. So, just as we, while on earth, cannot love or desire anything except in so far as it is seen to be good, the object of all love and desire, the will of the discarnate spirit is impelled, by psychological necessity, towards the actual, concrete Supreme Good.

catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/novissimis.htm#SPECULATIONS

Ohh, no, no, no, no. I never said that God loves Satan.
I state that the eternal punishment he will inflict on him is evidence that God does not love him.

 

[bsy]

God is LOVE doesn’t mean He loves everything. It’s like saying God created everything so He must have created evil as well. We know that evil is the absence of Good; and the absence of God’s love for Satan is due to the absence of anything good in Satan.

 

[davidv]

God is LOVE doesn’t mean He loves everything. It’s like saying God created everything so He must have created evil as well. We know that evil is the absence of Good; and the absence of God’s love for Satan is due to the absence of anything good in Satan.

Evil is not a created thing, it is that absense of good. So God didn’t create evil. Man takes away good by sinning, thereby causing evil. A core aspect of God nature is Love. He cannot fail to love all that he creates. A sinner here on earth separates himself from God, yet God continues to love him(her). Why is this also not true for satan?

 

[MindOverMatter2]

God is LOVE doesn’t mean He loves everything. It’s like saying God created everything so He must have created evil as well. We know that evil is the absence of Good; and the absence of God’s love for Satan is due to the absence of anything good in Satan.

But while Satan’s actions are evil; Satan’s being is essentially good. The absence of everything good in Satan would also mean the absence of his existence also. Existence is good. Thus the existence of essence is also good. If Satan could exist without anything good in him, that would mean that Satan is an ontological evil; which contradicts the fact that being is good. Just like nothingness is the absence of ontological reality, Evil, like davidv explained, is defined as the absence of good, but instead of being a negation it is a privation in reference to the nature of good. Evil is not the ontological presence of evil, just like nothingness is not the ontological presence of nothing. These things are not beings but rather they are privations and negations of being. Evil is merely a perversion of good; it is not a being. In other-words Satan takes something that is good (his existence), and uses it in a way that does not conform to the nature of love (God).

Therefore God loves the existence of Satan as equally as everybody else; for God is the bases and the giver of the very thing which God loves and is defined as good. We are nothing without God.

It is not a coincidence that catholic theology says that you should love the person but hate sin. This statement applies to all conscious beings. I do not hate Satan, i hate the sin he embraces and represents.

 

[PazzoGrande]

Therefore God loves the existence of Satan as equally as everybody else

That brings up an interesting question: which is the superior being, the angel or the human?

I think it was Catholicism for Dummies that drew a heirarchy of that and it said that angels are superior than men.

But then again, satan envies man, so perhaps man is superior. I think it was the exorcist Father Jose Antonio Fortea who says Satan envies man because we are in the image and likeness of God. And a priest at Mass once said that Saint John Vianney said that angels envy man because we can receive the Eucharist while they can only adore Jesus in it.

So if angels and the devil envy man, can man be superior to the angels?

 

[bsy]

Hi davidv & Mind over Matter2,

You misunderstood me. I wrote

God is LOVE doesn’t mean He loves everything. It’s like saying God created everything so He must have created evil as well.

in response to others who concluded that since God is LOVE; He loves Satan as well. Love is such a strong emotion, such a strong attachment of self to another. It was my argument that ALL doesn’t mean ALL; and EVERYTHING doesn’t mean EVERYTHING. I then raised the usual argument of some in reference to God creating evil since He created everything. We know very well that this is false since evil is not created, but the absence of good.

(Originally by MindOverMatter2)—
But while Satan’s actions are evil; Satan’s being is essentially good. The absence of everything good in Satan would also mean the absence of his existence also. Existence is good.

Sorry, but I cannot agree with your position on this. I, however, agree that in the beginning, God created everything good so Satan’s initial being was essentially good. In spite of KNOWING God, he chose to rebel against God wanting to be God Himself.
Satan did everything contrary to God’s Will. Instead of guiding, he beguiles; instead of ministering, he tempts; instead glorifying God, he glorifies self. Thus, his state of being suffered a permanent loss. His fate, foretold. His actions condemned his being. In my opinion, the loss of distinction between his being and actions was evidenced by the loss of redemption.

(Originally by MindOverMatter2)—
Therefore God loves the existence of Satan as equally as everybody else; for God is the bases and the giver of the very thing which God loves and is defined as good. We are nothing without God.

Referring to Judas (whom Satan entered), Jesus said that it is better that such man had NEVER been born. (I am not saying Judas was Satan; I am just pointing out a parallel.)

(Originally by MindOverMatter2)—
It is not a coincidence that catholic theology says that you should love the person but hate sin.

I totally agree with the above statement. There is distinction between the person and sin. Ex. distinction between homosexual acts and homosexual tendencies.
BUT such distinction is not always the case. One example was God’s judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah against the people and their evil ways.

(SIN) Gen 18: 20 So the LORD said: The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their “SIN” so grave.
(PERSON)Gen 19:13 We are about to destroy this place, for the outcry reaching the LORD against “THOSE HERE” is so great that the LORD has sent us to destroy it.
(JUDGMENT) condemnation and destruction…

Another was the cursing of the fig tree when it failed to deliver what was demanded of it.

“Their action or inaction condemns their being or existence.”

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Bsy,

Do you have any references to support your position?

I realize that God is Love and He declared that His Creation is very good (Gen 1). So, tell me, where do you find that God created evil? What God did create is Free Will and His acceptance of our decisions.

Satan is one of God’s creatures - and for Satan to remain in existence God must keep him in existence. Since God is Love, everything He does is Love - so, it is God’s Love for Satan that keeps Satan in existence.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

God bless

God is LOVE doesn’t mean He loves everything. It’s like saying God created everything so He must have created evil as well. We know that evil is the absence of Good; and the absence of God’s love for Satan is due to the absence of anything good in Satan.

 

[bsy]

Hi Tom,
See my reply to MOM2 and Davidv. Thanks.

 

[mdisse]

the God i know loves everything in his creation! everyone from the mother theresas to the adolf hitlers! but that also doesnt free you from the consequeces of your actions.

 

[tqualey]

God is pure Spirit - His Being is Pure Love - it is not an emotion as expressed by humans who cut out paper hearts for Valentine’s Day or sigh at that sound of a name. It is the very Being of God and not to be so lightly confused. By the way, you need to develop your definitions a bit… if ALL DOESN’T MEANT ALL, then just what does it mean?! You offer no alternative definition so this reader is remains confused. Please, either offer you own definition or stay with the established meaning of simple words.

Hi davidv & Mind over Matter2,
You misunderstood me. I wrote in response to others who concluded that since God is LOVE; He loves Satan as well. Love is such a strong emotion, such a strong attachment of self to another. It was my argument that ALL doesn’t mean ALL; and EVERYTHING doesn’t mean EVERYTHING. I then raised the usual argument of some in reference to God creating evil since He created everything. We know very well that this is false since evil is not created, but the absence of good.

Sorry, but I cannot agree with your position on this. I, however, agree that in the beginning, God created everything good so Satan’s initial being was essentially good. In spite of KNOWING God, he chose to rebel against God wanting to be God Himself.

Merely saying you don’t agree with something is fine as far as it goes. The problem is, it just does not go far enough. What is the basis for your lack of agreement? There is no scriptural basis for God changing Satan’s being, for Satan changing the being God created him as or any other combination. . Ultimately, we are different from our actions - we are more than all of our actions put together. Actions and being are not equal.

Referring to Judas (whom Satan entered), Jesus said that it is better that such man had NEVER been born. (I am not saying Judas was Satan; I am just pointing out a parallel.)

Are you now implying, Bsy, that God did not love Judas? Just how is this a parallel to anything? God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son to die for it - this does not rule out Judas. We have no knowledge that Judas is in Hell - only that Satan and the fallen angels are there. Unless you have evidence of something different here - then please share it.

There is distinction between the person and sin. Ex. distinction between homosexual acts and homosexual tendencies. BUT such distinction is not always the case. One example was God’s judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah against the people and their evil ways.

So, you are saying that God did not love the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah because He punished them with physical destruction or their lives and their city? Personally, I think you have confined God’s Love - just because we do not respond with love in such matters does not mean God can not. Really, there is no doubt that God was not pleased with the citizens of these two cities - but, you only appear to be using your understanding of human love to define God’s Love. This is simply inadequate and reduces God to mere human emotions.

Another was the cursing of the fig tree when it failed to deliver what was demanded of it. “Their action or inaction condemns their being or existence.”

Truly, Bsy, the fact that Christ cursed the fig tree (Matthew 21:18-19; 20-22 and Mark 11:12-14; 20-25) does not mean He did not Love this or any other part of His creation. My view is that the fig tree was an object lesson - the fruitless fig tree can stand for Israel (or for us, for that matter) that has not produced the fruits required by God: Justice, Mercy and true Worship of God. Maybe we can call this ‘Tough Love’ in that we are to cooperate with God’s Grace so we can be fruitful. But, the bottom line is unchanged here - God is Love and created everything out of Love. There is no evidence that He has stopped loving any of creation - even though those with a free will choose to break His Law.

God bless