Does God love the Devil?

[liquidpele]

God is human and Divine. Do you reject that Jesus Christ was both human and divine. By the power of the HS he became Man. Is Obama divine I think not.

What would you expect God to do then love evil and sin? No I would not hate my Child for a lie but I would hate the lie. And would hate the sin.

Do you think that God accepts and loves the devil? That is unreal. Why then in Eph 4:27 does God tell us do not leave room for the devil. Why does God tell us to not be deceived by the evil one. Why does God tell us to stay in the light and out of the darknesss. The darkness is the devil, the darkness is evil. But God tells us to live as children of the light for light prodices every kind of goodness and righteousness and Trurth. Learn what is pleasing to God. take no part in the fruitness of darkness rather expose them.

You just made my point… God might not love the evil and sin, but to hate another sentient being is not an attribute I would attach to God. Unless you think the devil is not sentient and is just a personification of the evils of the world, which honestly makes more sense anyway.

 

[rinnie]

Here is my proof to all of my Christian Brothers and Sister out there.

Think back to you Baptism Promises. Do you reject satan and all of his empty promises. If God loved the devil he would not tell us to reject him. God hates lies, God hates sin, and God hates evil. Anyone who participates in this and does not repent and ask for forgiveness will never see the kingdom of heaven.

God would never tell us to reject someone he loves!

 

[jkiernan56]

I wouldn’t expect a God to embrace evil and sin, but I wouldn’t expect him to Hate either. If your little boy lied to you, would you hate him? I find the notion of God hating simply ridiculous…

You find the notion of God hating simply ridiculous huh? Thats because you don’t understand the difference between an action and the person doing an action. They are not the same thing.

 

[liquidpele]

You find the notion of God hating simply ridiculous huh? Thats because you don’t understand the difference between an action and the person doing an action. They are not the same thing.

Wait, are you suggesting that because God does it it’s okay? Can you elaborate a little?

 

[jkiernan56]

Wait, are you suggesting that because God does it it’s okay? Can you elaborate a little?

Yes, God does HATE but not in an evil way. There is a good kind of hate. There is an evil kind of hate. If you need me to explain more the difference, let me know.

Regarding distinguising between an action and a person, we can use this CA messaging as an example. You wrote a CA response and sent it to me here on this forum. Can you distinguish between the action (verb) and the person (pronoun)? God hates some actions and loves others. God always LOVES the person doing the actions, but not necessarily the actions if they are not good and cause harm to self or others.

 

[liquidpele]

Yes, God does HATE but not in an evil way. There is a good kind of hate. There is an evil kind of hate. If you need me to explain more the difference, let me know.

I’m curious how you distinguish the two and when you would find them appropriate.

 

[jkiernan56]

I’m curious how you distinguish the two and when you would find them appropriate.

How would I distinguish between a good kind of hate and an evil kind of hate? I will give you two examples, but it hardly encompasses the subject.

Good kind of hate - seeing an injustice done against someone you know or love and performing actions to eradicate that injustice.

Evil kind of hate - being jealous of someone who has something you don’t have and harboring resentment or even go as far as to MURDER the person you are jealous of

 

[liquidpele]

How would I distinguish between a good kind of hate and an evil kind of hate? I will give you two examples, but it hardly encompasses the subject.

Good kind of hate - seeing an injustice done against someone you know or love and performing actions to eradicate that injustice.

Evil kind of hate - being jealous of someone who has something you don’t have and harboring resentment or even go as far as to MURDER the person you are jealous of

Why would the first thing be hate? Why would it not be justice, love, discipline, or a combination of those?

 

[jkiernan56]

Why would the first thing be hate? Why would it not be justice, love, discipline, or a combination of those?

Actually every one of those characteristics has a relationship to Love. Hate means nothing but in reference and relationship to Love. So while a person may do actions to erradicate injustice, the injustice is what is Hated. That is a good kind of hatred. The injustice is not loved. If the injustice were never committed, there would be no need to act to irradicate it. You asked me to give an example of a good hate. In my universe, hating injustice is still a good thing. And out of hate for injustice and love for the good (see - both can be in play at the same time) a person can perform actions to irradicate injustice.

In a subjective relativistic world where anything can be anything, you are right - black can be white and up can be down - depending on your reference point.

 

[liquidpele]

Actually every one of those characteristics has a relationship to Love. Hate means nothing but in reference and relationship to Love. So while a person may do actions to erradicate injustice, the injustice is what is Hated. That is a good kind of hatred. The injustice is not loved. If the injustice were never committed, there would be no need to act to irradicate it. You asked me to give an example of a good hate. In my universe, hating injustice is still a good thing. And out of hate for injustice and love for the good (see - both can be in play at the same time) a person can perform actions to irradicate injustice.

In a subjective relativistic world where anything can be anything, you are right - black can be white and up can be down - depending on your reference point.

You seem to just be redefining actions based on love as a “good hate”… seems redundant and confusing.

 

[jkiernan56]

You seem to just be redefining actions based on love as a “good hate”… seems redundant and confusing.

You’ve got that right - hating injustice and working to erradicate it is an example of “good hate”.

If someone plunged a knife in your back to do you harm, I think I could reasonably conclude which one of the two (Love or Hate) would spring up within you. Or are you going to give me some subjective relativistic nonsense whereby anything can be true depending on one’s particular reference point:?

 

[liquidpele]

You’ve got that right - hating injustice and working to erradicate it is an example of “good hate”.

If someone put a knife in your back, I think I could reasonably conclude which one of the two (Love or Hate) would spring up within you. Or are you going to give me some subjective relativistic nonsense whereby nothing has any meaning depending on one’s reference point:?

Subjectivity means a lot though… lets say a guy puts a knife to my back and wants my wallet… do I hate him? Well… he’s risking serious jail time over a wallet with maybe $20 in it. Why? He’s probably broke, maybe homeless, perhaps with a bad addiction… maybe he’s even trying to feed his kids the only way he still can because he’s out of work. Maybe he’s just lazy and wants a sandwich but his violence stems from a poor childhood. Besides, what I would personally feel is irrelevant. We’re not talking about a human, we’re talking about God.

Then again, maybe you’re right. God sure did hate a lot in the OT.

 

[mandateman]

God loves all he created. Devils were created with concrete wills capable of one choice. Devils are the angels that made that one choice to reject love and reverence and obedience to God. But they are still used by God.

God allows devils to tempt his creation. He uses the devils to try his holy ones with fire. He uses them to educate the saint and mystic in Gods ways. He alone decides to what degree an devil can have power over you.

He allows evil to exist because God alone can draw good out of evil. For the good of the souls that he will help because of sin he permits it.

God alone decides what sin that is committed in our minds can become manifest in reality. “Trustful surrender to Divine Providence.”

Devils sometime assist someone who is skating on thin ice to see the reality of what life could be like without change. Hell is Gods last mercy to the condemned. Because the punishments are not equal in contrast to life that the joys of heaven are in contrast to the joys of life. People who are lost forever get what they have wanted. Hell is a place of eternal life without God or any of the mercies of God. God is love there can only be hate remaining. God is kindness there can only be unkindness and cruelty. God is perfect knowledge and order, there can only be insanity etc.

 

[Areopagite]

This seems counter to everything I keep hearing Catholics say… “God is love” etc etc.
A God that would hate seems more human than God.

Once again, it depends what you mean be “love” and “hate.” Both words can refer to emotional inclinations (e.g. I love chocolate, I hate soup). But love, in the volitional sense (i.e. pertaining to the will), can mean “seeking what is best for the thing loved.” As I said in a previous post, God can be said to hate the devil insofar as He does not seek the devil’s ultimate good (which would be heaven, since the angels were meant for being in heaven) and this is because the devil has eternally refused heaven. However, in another sense, God can be said to love the devil as He seeks what is best for the devil given the devil’s state … that is, Hell is now the best place for the devil given what he has chosen (though it is not natural to his angelic nature) because it would be harmful for guilty person to enter into eternal happiness (which I explained before).

I go into this further in the previous post.

Also, hate is not necessarily the opposite of love. It depends what you mean by “opposite.” If you mean hate is the negation of love, I don’t think this is true (correct me if I’m wrong). A rock doesn’t love me, but it doesn’t hate me either.

My answer would be NO. Here is why the devil is evil. God hates evil. The devil is full of les.God hates lies. No God could never love evil.

This does not imply that the devil is ontologically evil. Ontological evil does not exist. God loves all beings, and thus loves the devil in that sense.

You just made my point… God might not love the evil and sin, but to hate another sentient being is not an attribute I would attach to God. Unless you think the devil is not sentient and is just a personification of the evils of the world, which honestly makes more sense anyway.

The devil indeed exists and he is rational (“sentient” technically means “having senses” and doesn’t have to do with having an intellect … at least, that’s the traditional definition, before some ignoramus began using it differently … sorry, it’s a touchy subject)

Subjectivity means a lot though… lets say a guy puts a knife to my back and wants my wallet… do I hate him? Well… he’s risking serious jail time over a wallet with maybe $20 in it. Why? He’s probably broke, maybe homeless, perhaps with a bad addiction… maybe he’s even trying to feed his kids the only way he still can because he’s out of work. Maybe he’s just lazy and wants a sandwich but his violence stems from a poor childhood. Besides, what I would personally feel is irrelevant. We’re not talking about a human, we’re talking about God.

It’s true that someone could possibly so emotionally messed up that they are not responsible for their actions. We should never hate anyone no matter what … insofar as we shouldn’t want what’s worst for them (especially, we shouldn’t want them to go to hell).

Then again, maybe you’re right. God sure did hate a lot in the OT.

I think this is true, considering the choice of usage of the word “hate.” The Psalms do say “God hates those who do evil” which I think is awesome. (although, I’m screwed)

But in this sense, as I explained in my last post, this is referring to another kind of hate. You can be said to hate something if you fight it because it stands in the way of some goal. Hence, anything you fight because it impedes you can be considered a kind of “hate.” You may still seek what’s best for the object of your hatred (that is, you may still want a person to go to heaven, even if you’re trying to shoot him). Thus, sinners are people who seek to frustrate God’s plan and bring souls (esp. their own souls) to hell. Thus, since they oppose God’s goal, God hates them. God hates the devil in that sense too.

Usually, we don’t talk about God’s hate in that sense because we want to emphasize God’s love in the sense that He wants everyone to go to heaven. In fact, we emphasis that so much, that confusion arises when we read in the Psalms that “God hates those who do evil.” Seldom is this clarified, and it took many years searching the tomes of Scholastic philosophy for me to find the answer (and I hope that is the answer … but men of higher wisdom, correct me if I’m wrong). But no matter. Did that make sense?

 

[jimcintosh]

The opposite of love is not hate. It is indifference.

In any case, Jesus told us that we should love our enemies. Would God do less? To exist is to be deeply loved by God.

 

[rinnie]

God created the angels and did indeed love them. SO I was wrong to say the God hates the devil. What I should have said is no God does not hate the devil the devil hates God.

But God does hate the evil the devil does, and indeed hates what the devil has become. So while he loved him in the beginning God hates who he has become and what he has become. And that is evil.

The devil made his choice to become what he has. THe devil can and never will turn back. So while God does not hate him, he hates the evil he spreads and the evil works he does.

So sorry guys. I was wrong:blush:

 

[rinnie]

And being that the devil is nothing but evil God will have no part of the devil. And God does not want us to either. God created the devil for goodness, but because the devil had free-will he choose to reject the goodness and choose evil. So the devil made his choice to be separate from God for all eternity. It was his choice not Gods.

 

[jkiernan56]

Subjectivity means a lot though… lets say a guy puts a knife to my back and wants my wallet… do I hate him? Well… he’s risking serious jail time over a wallet with maybe $20 in it. Why? He’s probably broke, maybe homeless, perhaps with a bad addiction… maybe he’s even trying to feed his kids the only way he still can because he’s out of work. Maybe he’s just lazy and wants a sandwich but his violence stems from a poor childhood. Besides, what I would personally feel is irrelevant. We’re not talking about a human, we’re talking about God.

Then again, maybe you’re right. God sure did hate a lot in the OT.

You reeled the tape back further than the example I gave. I am totally on the same page with you if the scenario started BEFORE he stuck the knife in you like a pig. But the action of him actually sticking you is not something you would give him a warm hug for doing to you.

So, lets get real here. Yes we are talking about God. But I would like to engage you first on the human level … see if you and i can even agree about anything on this level about love and hate … before we make the leap to God.

Do you really think that human beings do not HATE all forms of injustice? I know all of them don’t, but most do. Obviously there are some who are not troubled with injustice … or don’t see that what they are doing is unjust to others… like the planes that flew into the Twin Towers on 9/11. Most sane people HATED THIS ACTION performed by some extremist Muslims. Do you not agree that human beings can love what is good and hate what is not good? Or is the word “Good” not in your vocabulary? I haven’t even gotten to God yet. I just want to see if we are on the same page … on the human level about love and hate before we even continue this discussion … that is if you care to.

Now if you are truly a relativist, I will find out whether Good is also a moving target for you that can mean anything you like … .depending on one’s changing reference point. Are you one of those that say that “up” to me could mean “down” to someone else? lol

 

[CatholicZ09]

Um, where did “Love the sinner, hate the sin” come from anyways? Just wanted to ask.

 

[jkiernan56]

I think this is true, considering the choice of usage of the word “hate.” The Psalms do say “God hates those who do evil” which I think is awesome. (although, I’m screwed)

Actually, putting this verse in context with the rest of scripture, I’m sure a biblical scholar would back me up that “God hates the evil that others do and loves those who do the evil.”