Does God love the Devil?

[Areopagite]

Actually, putting this verse in context with the rest of scripture, I’m sure a biblical scholar would back me up that “God hates the evil that others do and loves those who do the evil.”

Well, cite a source.

In any case, the Psalm 5:5 says “God hates all those who do evil” or “God hates evildoer” or something to that effect. So, does God hate sinners in some sense? Yes. The Psalms say that. And I’m sure it “hate” in the sense of “fighting against those who try to impede one’s goal” or something to that effect.

People are too willing to commit to an absolute usage of the word “hate” when there are many usages of the word. There isn’t just one. Does anyone disagree with that?

 

[rinnie]

Um, where did “Love the sinner, hate the sin” come from anyways? Just wanted to ask.

It came from Jesus. Its all through the bible. Like when you someone wacks you in the right cheek give them the left. Love those who hate you, if you only love those who love you how hard is that. You know etc.

But John Paul ll was the one who I remember saying it that way. Love the sinner hate the sin. I recall him for sure saying it went it came to gay people. and he used it many other times. But it came from Jesus.

 

[rinnie]

Well, cite a source.

In any case, the Psalm 5:5 says “God hates all those who do evil” or “God hates evildoer” or something to that effect. So, does God hate sinners in some sense? Yes. The Psalms say that. And I’m sure it “hate” in the sense of “fighting against those who try to impede one’s goal” or something to that effect.

People are too willing to commit to an absolute usage of the word “hate” when there are many usages of the word. There isn’t just one. Does anyone disagree with that?

No God hates no one. But he hates what they do and have become. Thats what alot of people do not realize. Just because God loves us does not mean we love him. If we reject him then we are not one of his. God gave everyone free will. Thats why alot of people who reject him think oh well, I can do as I please, do evil in this world reject him and if he does exist oh well he loves everyone so I am getting in. He told us in the bible it does not work that way. Just like the devil made his choice in his time. I hate to say time because for God there is no time. But anyway like we have until we die in this world to repent and change our ways the devil had his. He choose evil and to reject God. Now his time is up. and ours will be soon. Its up to us in this world how its gonna be.

The devil made his choice to reject God and he is forever separated from God. Thats why he does his best to take us from God too. He hates God that much. He knows when we hurt ourself and eachother it hurts God worse. But we can repent and change our ways. Hopefully we can all do that before we die. We never know when our last day will be. For many it is today.

 

[tonyrey]

God must love the Devil because He sustains the Devil in existence. Like us in God the Devil lives, moves and has his being! But as God’s love is not reciprocated His love for the Devil cannot be as personal as His love for those who love Him…

 

[rinnie]

God must love the Devil because He sustains the Devil in existence. Like us in God the Devil lives, moves and has his being! But as God’s love is not reciprocated His love for the Devil cannot be as personal as His love for those who love Him…

That is lovely tonyrey. You are right, and we must remember this also. The devil can be the best example for all of us if we let him. Look at his works. what his evil does to all. But look at what Gods works do to us all.

We have to remember the devil put his will above Gods will. The devil did not choose God’s way he wanted it his way. That is why he is where he is and what he is. If you live Gods plan you will receive Love and Peace. If you live the devils plan you will receive evil and anxiety. Kinda like what goes around comes around.

Or do unto othes as you want other’s to do to you.

 

[jkiernan56]

Well, cite a source.

In any case, the Psalm 5:5 says “God hates all those who do evil” or “God hates evildoer” or something to that effect. So, does God hate sinners in some sense? Yes. The Psalms say that. And I’m sure it “hate” in the sense of “fighting against those who try to impede one’s goal” or something to that effect.

I have to respectfully disagree. A clear distinction needs to be made between the WHAT and the WHO. When a person does evil, God still loves the WHO and hates the WHAT. Any notion that God hates the WHO in and during the act of sin is a misunderstanding of scripture and God. Any notion that God loves a person LESS after committing evil - or loves a person MORE after they have done good - is simply wrong.

God loves ME (and each of us) - period. He loves ME even when I do evil. He is loving me even while I am doing evil. God always desires my greatest good. There is nothing I can do or not do to change that fact.

Here is one source I can site you.

Romans 5:7-8 "Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. "

On a personal note, I can also speak from a very profound personal experience of God’s love for me. It was a direct experience of Grace.

I also know from another personal experience in prayer that it is God’s love that makes us perfect, and not being perfect that makes God love us. If you look at that statement like a straight line as a continuum, there is no where along the line where God loves a person MORE, the more perfected in love they become. Yes, the person is able to receive more love, but God loves a person the same no matter where they are on the road to being perfected in love. God’s love for you in heaven will be no less than His love for you right now.

There is only one YOU… Only God fully knows YOU. Whatever YOU that He knows, He loves and desires to be a member of Christ’s Body for the rest of eternity. God wills that for YOU no matter what you do or how much you sin. How much God loves YOU never changes by what you do or do not do.

 

[JohnJFarren]

JMJ / MMM 091014 Wednesday
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ … and All Others Also –

Does GOD change? … lose and gain? No. It is impossible for God to change.
God Loved Lucifer/Satan infinitely … and continues to Love Satan forever. Of course God does not Love the evil Satan wills and does.

Just because you and I sin doesn’t mean the grace and Love of God cease to pour upon us – but in sin we have raised our umbrellas and we sure don’t get wet.
John (JohnJFarren)

 

[Areopagite]

No God hates no one. But he hates what they do and have become. Thats what alot of people do not realize. Just because God loves us does not mean we love him. If we reject him then we are not one of his. God gave everyone free will. Thats why alot of people who reject him think oh well, I can do as I please, do evil in this world reject him and if he does exist oh well he loves everyone so I am getting in. He told us in the bible it does not work that way. Just like the devil made his choice in his time. I hate to say time because for God there is no time. But anyway like we have until we die in this world to repent and change our ways the devil had his. He choose evil and to reject God. Now his time is up. and ours will be soon. Its up to us in this world how its gonna be.

I have to respectfully disagree. A clear distinction needs to be made between the WHAT and the WHO. When a person does evil, God still loves the WHO and hates the WHAT. Any notion that God hates the WHO in and during the act of sin is a misunderstanding of scripture and God. Any notion that God loves a person LESS after committing evil - or loves a person MORE after they have done good - is simply wrong.

…
On a personal note, I can also speak from a very profound personal experience of God’s love for me. It was a direct experience of Grace.

I also know from another personal experience in prayer that it is God’s love that makes us perfect, and not being perfect that makes God love us. If you look at that statement like a straight line as a continuum, there is no where along the line where God loves a person MORE, the more perfected in love they become. Yes, the person is able to receive more love, but God loves a person the same no matter where they are on the road to being perfected in love. God’s love for you in heaven will be no less than His love for you right now.

There is only one YOU… Only God fully knows YOU. Whatever YOU that He knows, He loves and desires to be a member of Christ’s Body for the rest of eternity. God wills that for YOU no matter what you do or how much you sin. How much God loves YOU never changes by what you do or do not do.

What you guys are talking about is that God does not ontologically hate anything (which I explained in my previous posts … perhaps no one has read them). However,** in some sense … that is, in at least one usage of the word hate … it can be said that God hates sinners.** As I said, He hates sinners in the sense of hate meaning “fighting against those who oppose one’s goal.” That, I think, is one way the word “hate” is used. If you deny this, then Scripture is riddled with theological problems.

Let me show them to you:

Psalm 5:5-6: “The foolish shall not stand in Thy sight: THOU HATEST ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing (lies): THE LORD WILL ABHOR THE BLOODY AND DECEITFUL MAN.”

Psalm 10:3: “For the wicked… blesseth the covetous, WHOM THE LORD ABHORRETH.”

Proverbs 22:14: “The soul of strange women is a deep pit: HE THAT IS ABHORRED OF THE LORD shall fall therein.”

Hosea 9:15: “All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I HATED THEM: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of Mine house, I WILL LOVE THEM NO MORE…”

Malachi 1:3-4: “And I HATED ESAU, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness…thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and the people AGAINST WHOM THE LORD HATH INDIGNATION FOREVER.”

Romans 9:13: “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but ESAU HAVE I HATED.”

So, please, you have to acknowledge that in one sense of the how the word “hate” is used, it is true that God hates the sinner. If you don’t accept that, why does Scripture say that God hates sinners? That’s what it says!

It challenged (no, you can say it hurt) my faith when people in my childhood insisted God didn’t hate sinners in any way because … Scripture said otherwise. They just turned a blind eye to it. It was disgusting (these were Protestants, by the way … well, mostly). Fortunately, I studied philosophy and found very reasonable distinctions between different kinds of hate. (Thank you, Aquinas.)

So, come on, guys. Let’s get with the program and stop sugar-coating things for no reason (or rather, against reason). Please. I can’t stand it. And neither can rational people.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

What you guys are talking about is that God does not ontologically hate anything (which I explained in my previous posts … perhaps no one has read them). However,** in some sense … that is, in at least one usage of the word hate … it can be said that God hates sinners.** As I said, He hates sinners in the sense of hate meaning “fighting against those who oppose one’s goal.” That, I think, is one way the word “hate” is used. If you deny this, then Scripture is riddled with theological problems.

Let me show them to you:

So, please, you have to acknowledge that in one sense of the how the word “hate” is used, it is true that God hates the sinner. If you don’t accept that, why does Scripture say that God hates sinners? That’s what it says!

It challenged (no, you can say it hurt) my faith when people in my childhood insisted God didn’t hate sinners in any way because … Scripture said otherwise. They just turned a blind eye to it. It was disgusting (these were Protestants, by the way … well, mostly). Fortunately, I studied philosophy and found very reasonable distinctions between different kinds of hate. (Thank you, Aquinas.)

So, come on, guys. Let’s get with the program and stop sugar-coating things for no reason (or rather, against reason). [SIGN]Please. I can’t stand it. And neither can rational people.

[/SIGN]

Oh so because we disagree with you we are not rational people. Answer me this then,

By the way at first I thought like you that God hated the devil also. Then I investigated more and recanted my statement. Here is why!

The bibe said God loves all of his creation. Lets stop there. Now does God or does he not? Thats what the bible says. So lets be RATIONAL is that the truth or not.

THen I started thinking. God loves Adam. Did he not? Adam fell from Grace, Did he Not? But Adam had time to change and repent. Now if God hates the fallen man then he hates us all does he not?

God hates the devil no more then he hates us. That is why God gives us time to repent and change our ways. The devil had his shot and he refused to accept Gods love and chose his own way of life.

You hear it daily on the news a Child went bad, kills murders. You hear the Mother hurting saying I hate what my child has become, but does the Mother hate the Child or what he has become. No she does not hate her child, but she hates what her child has become. If the child would continue to be evil the Mother has no choice but to turn away the child and she cannot accept the evil. If a Man chooses to continue evil the parents can no longer accept that evil they must turn from that child. No matter how much they love it. Some people just are evil that come from good. So while the parents have nothing to do later in life with the child, because it will not change its ways the love never died.

THe same with God, He pray’s like that Mother that the child will come back to the light repent and quit the evil. But if the child refuses it also will not have eternal life.

What is the difference here? THere is none. Just like the Mothers love could not overpower evil Gods love also cannot. Only if the person accepts the love and turns away from the evil. Same thing.

Now you tell me. Does God love all of his creation or not? Who is right you or the word of God?

 

[Areopagite]

Oh so because we disagree with you we are not rational people.

You’re certainly not being very rational on this subject. Or, rather, perhaps everything you’re thinking makes sense and is completely logical, but you have not expressed it with any clarity at all. But, indeed, perhaps it is I who am completely out of my mind. That’s possible too.

Answer me this then,

By the way at first I thought like you that God hated the devil also. Then I investigated more and recanted my statement. Here is why!

The bibe said God loves all of his creation. Lets stop there. Now does God or does he not? Thats what the bible says. So lets be RATIONAL is that the truth or not.

THen I started thinking. God loves Adam. Did he not? Adam fell from Grace, Did he Not? But Adam had time to change and repent. Now if God hates the fallen man then he hates us all does he not?

God hates the devil no more then he hates us. That is why God gives us time to repent and change our ways. The devil had his shot and he refused to accept Gods love and chose his own way of life.

You hear it daily on the news a Child went bad, kills murders. You hear the Mother hurting saying I hate what my child has become, but does the Mother hate the Child or what he has become. No she does not hate her child, but she hates what her child has become. If the child would continue to be evil the Mother has no choice but to turn away the child and she cannot accept the evil. If a Man chooses to continue evil the parents can no longer accept that evil they must turn from that child. No matter how much they love it. Some people just are evil that come from good. So while the parents have nothing to do later in life with the child, because it will not change its ways the love never died.

THe same with God, He pray’s like that Mother that the child will come back to the light repent and quit the evil. But if the child refuses it also will not have eternal life.

What is the difference here? THere is none. Just like the Mothers love could not overpower evil Gods love also cannot. Only if the person accepts the love and turns away from the evil. Same thing.

You have to define what you mean by “love” and “hate” here. Depending on how you’re using the terms, I would obviously agree with you, as you may discover by reading my other posts on this thread.

Now you tell me. Does God love all of his creation or not? Who is right you or the word of God?

Well, on this subject, Scripture and I seem to agree. It’s you and Scripture that are at odds. Please re-read the Scripture quotes I gave, and you will see that it explicitly says that God hates sinners. And yet you are saying God does not hate sinners (in every way, right?). Please stop denying that there is an apparent conflict here. Who is right? You or the word of God?

(And once again, all I’m saying is that “hate” can be used in different ways, and in one sense, God hates sinners, and in another God loves them. To fail to acknowledge this is to contradict Scripture. Read my other posts to see exactly what I’ve said about all this, just so you don’t get the wrong impression of what I’ve been arguing).

 

[jkiernan56]

What you guys are talking about is that God does not ontologically hate anything (which I explained in my previous posts … perhaps no one has read them). However,** in some sense … that is, in at least one usage of the word hate … it can be said that God hates sinners.** As I said, He hates sinners in the sense of hate meaning “fighting against those who oppose one’s goal.” That, I think, is one way the word “hate” is used. If you deny this, then Scripture is riddled with theological problems.

So, please, you have to acknowledge that in one sense of the how the word “hate” is used, it is true that God hates the sinner. If you don’t accept that, why does Scripture say that God hates sinners? That’s what it says!

It challenged (no, you can say it hurt) my faith when people in my childhood insisted God didn’t hate sinners in any way because … Scripture said otherwise. They just turned a blind eye to it. It was disgusting (these were Protestants, by the way … well, mostly). Fortunately, I studied philosophy and found very reasonable distinctions between different kinds of hate. (Thank you, Aquinas.)

So, come on, guys. Let’s get with the program and stop sugar-coating things for no reason (or rather, against reason). Please. I can’t stand it. And neither can rational people.

I find the distinction you made extremely interesting. It also raises another challenging question for me about God’s love … and my own growth in holiness. I have read your explanation about how God ontologically loves all that He has created. (I reversed your earlier statement “God does not ontologically hate anything” - since I like statements in the afirmative rather than in double negatives). I experienced this complete unconditional love firsthand. But you made me consider God’s love in another way that I never really considered … by the way you explained how God hates the sinner. And it is starting to make alot of sense.

If God “hates” the sinner in the context you explained, would you also say that God loves a person MORE the holier they become? A person who grows in Holiness, takes on the image of Christ more and more. Since it is the image of Christ that God the Father loves … .the more God loves us as we take on that image? And once a person has become perfected in love - in other words - cannot grow anymore in holiness - the image of Christ has been perfected in their soul - . that that is the extent to which God loves them?

I have heard the analogy that our souls are like cups. The more our soul grows in love, the larger the cup becomes. Each person in heaven will be completely happy because their cup will be full. But some people’s cups will be larger than others. This is the degree to which they are able to love God and be loved by God.

Areopagite, I think I am beginning to see why I can agree with you about God’s love in the context you put it. The more we grow in love, the more God loves us. It makes perfect sense. It also makes sense that God hates the sinner. I sincerely thank you :bowdown:

 

[Areopagite]

I find the distinction you made extremely interesting. It also raises another challenging question for me about God’s love … and my own growth in holiness. I have read your explanation about how God ontologically loves all that He has created. (I reversed your earlier statement “God does not ontologically hate anything” - since I like statements in the afirmative rather than in double negatives). I experienced this complete unconditional love firsthand. But you made me consider God’s love in another way that I never really considered … by the way you explained how God hates the sinner. And it is starting to make alot of sense.

If God “hates” the sinner in the context you explained, would you also say that God loves a person MORE the holier they become? A person who grows in Holiness, takes on the image of Christ more and more. Since it is the image of Christ that God the Father loves … .the more God loves us as we take on that image? And once a person has become perfected in love - in other words - cannot grow anymore in holiness - the image of Christ has been perfected in their soul - . that that is the extent to which God loves them?

I have heard the analogy that our souls are like cups. The more our soul grows in love, the larger the cup becomes. Each person in heaven will be completely happy because their cup will be full. But some people’s cups will be larger than others. This is the degree to which they are able to love God and be loved by God.

Areopagite, I think I am beginning to see why I can agree with you about God’s love in the context you put it. The more we grow in love, the more God loves us. It makes perfect sense. It also makes sense that God hates the sinner. I sincerely thank you :bowdown:

You’re very welcome … and thank you, Jkiernan, that means so much. I was beginning to think I was crazy. Your comments consoled me profoundly. Thank you.

And I think I agree with you that God loves us more when He sees Christ in us. I’ve actually heard that before (from a theologian). And that cup analogy makes a lot of sense.

It is understandable why one would sometimes disregard the alternative usages of the terms “love” and “hate” with regard to God, especially if one has undergone some personal experience regarding the infinite ontological love of God (and there are many such people). I could see myself doing that, at least. One would then have, perhaps, an inclination sometimes to overemphasize the ontological love to the potential rejection (or … major de-emphasis) of the other meanings of the word. It could create confusion for others, even though it may make sense in his own head. Definitely not a malicious thing, and definitely forgivable.

Nonetheless, there is some spiritual benefit, I think, to sometimes acknowledge that God can hate you in some sense if you sin, otherwise there may be a temptation (for some at least) not to take the avoidance of sin seriously (and falling into the presumption that God’s going to forgive whatever you do).

Depending who you are, emphasizing God’s love can be beneficial, and for others, perhaps emphasizing God’s hatred would occasionally be beneficial. In general, however, I would very much be inclined that for most people, in most points in their lives, the love of God is the thing to be emphasized. In fact, without a doubt. That’s kind of the whole point of existence.

 

[jkiernan56]

You’re very welcome … and thank you, Jkiernan, that means so much. I was beginning to think I was crazy. Your comments consoled me profoundly. Thank you.

And I think I agree with you that God loves us more when He sees Christ in us. I’ve actually heard that before (from a theologian). And that cup analogy makes a lot of sense.

It is understandable why one would sometimes disregard the alternative usages of the terms “love” and “hate” with regard to God, especially if one has undergone some personal experience regarding the infinite ontological love of God (and there are many such people). I could see myself doing that, at least. One would then have, perhaps, an inclination sometimes to overemphasize the ontological love to the potential rejection (or … major de-emphasis) of the other meanings of the word. It could create confusion for others, even though it may make sense in his own head. Definitely not a malicious thing, and definitely forgivable.

Nonetheless, there is some spiritual benefit, I think, to sometimes acknowledge that God can hate you in some sense if you sin, otherwise there may be a temptation (for some at least) not to take the avoidance of sin seriously (and falling into the presumption that God’s going to forgive whatever you do).

Depending who you are, emphasizing God’s love can be beneficial, and for others, perhaps emphasizing God’s hatred would occasionally be beneficial. In general, however, I would very much be inclined that for most people, in most points in their lives, the love of God is the thing to be emphasized. In fact, without a doubt. That’s kind of the whole point of existence.

Thank you for blessing me with your knowledge of God’s love and hate. I apologize for saying things about God’s love out of ignorance that were not true in an earlier post. You have given me a whole new understanding and illumined scripture for me. Please say a prayer for me to want to take sin in my life more seriously so that I can fall more in love with Jesus and His Body. I am definitely guilty of presumption.

I also understand now how God loves the Devil - only ontologically. Since there is no goodness in the Devil other than his existence, there is nothing God can love about the Devil other than his existence which God. God only loves what is good and holy. The more we grow in holiness, the more God loves us. The converse is true as well. God absolutely hates the Devil other than his existence because there is no goodness in the Devil other than his existence.

It is not God’s choice to hate the Devil, but rather because of the Devil’s choice, he has rejected God. God can do nothing other than hate the Devil. Holiness and Evil are diametrically opposed to each other. Because of God’s holiness, God hates anything and anyone associated with evil. It is His nature and God can only do what His nature is - Love what is holy.

 

[jimcintosh]

God only loves what is good and holy. The more we grow in holiness, the more God loves us. The converse is true as well.

Hmmm… I was agreeing with much which was written here, ignoring the bickering, until I arrived at at the quote above.

First, God is unchanging. God cannot love more or love less. God is love.

Second, time is as much part of the created order as is everything else. God exists outside the created order because God is the creator. Therefore, how can God love more when we grow in holiness if all moments are “now” to God.

It just doesn’t make sense.

God’s love for you is infinite and unchanging. It cannot be otherwise.

 

[rinnie]

Hmmm… I was agreeing with much which was written here, ignoring the bickering, until I arrived at at the quote above.

First, God is unchanging. God cannot love more or love less. God is love.

Second, time is as much part of the created order as is everything else. God exists outside the created order because God is the creator. Therefore, how can God love more when we grow in holiness if all moments are “now” to God.

It just doesn’t make sense.

God’s love for you is infinite and unchanging. It cannot be otherwise.

I am waiting to hear that one myself!

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

You’re certainly not being very rational on this subject. Or, rather, perhaps everything you’re thinking makes sense and is completely logical, but you have not expressed it with any clarity at all. But, indeed, perhaps it is I who am completely out of my mind. That’s possible too.

You have to define what you mean by “love” and “hate” here. Depending on how you’re using the terms, I would obviously agree with you, as you may discover by reading my other posts on this thread.

Well, on this subject, Scripture and I seem to agree. It’s you and Scripture that are at odds. Please re-read the Scripture quotes I gave, and ]you will see that it explicitly says that God hates sinners]. And yet you are saying God does not hate sinners (in every way, right?). Please stop denying that there is an apparent conflict here. Who is right? You or the word of God?

(And once again, all I’m saying is that “hate” can be used in different ways, and in one sense, God hates sinners, and in another God loves them. To fail to acknowledge this is to contradict Scripture. Read my other posts to see exactly what I’ve said about all this, just so you don’t get the wrong impression of what I’ve been arguing).

Yes it does, but it also says God loves all his creation. So who is right you or me. Does God love his creation but hates what they do, Or does he hate his creation now? What are you saying?

I said and I will make myself clear, God hates evil and the sins man does. God loves everyone but hates the sin that they do. If you are a sinner you choose to turn away God. And you will not be with him in heaven, its as simple as that. Rather God loves a sinner or not he will not give them eternal life if they do not turn from that sin. But he never stops loving a sinner. ITs as simple as that. So how can God love all of his creation but then hate the sinner. I know what scripture says. but who is understanding it wrong you or I? He can’t do both now can he?

 

[Areopagite]

First, God is unchanging. God cannot love more or love less. God is love.

Of course He can. I hope you would agree that God hates sin. That would be is a case where God isn’t loving at all.

I don’t see the connection between God’s unchangeableness and His supposed disability to love in varying degrees.

Second, time is as much part of the created order as is everything else. God exists outside the created order because God is the creator. Therefore, how can God love more when we grow in holiness if all moments are “now” to God.

It just doesn’t make sense.

God’s love for you is infinite and unchanging. It cannot be otherwise.

Let me ask you a question: Does God the Father love us more or God the Son more? Probably God the Son. Maybe you disagree. But if He loves the Son more, it follows that when we are in a state of grace we are then loved more by God because we then have the divine dwelling in us.

I also assume that you might agree that God loves us more than He loves a rock. Right? It’s because humans are made in the image of God and the rock is not. God sees Himself more in us than a rock, and hence loves us more. Same kind of thing happens with a person with grace compared to someone without grace.

It’s not like God Himself changes in these circumstances. It’s certainly the case that the creatures change in relation to God’s love. For example, when we sin, we lose the divine in us. It’s not like the divine changes in that case, but we change in relation to the divine.

[SIGN][/SIGN]
Yes it does, but it also says God loves all his creation. So who is right you or me. Does God love his creation but hates what they do, Or does he hate his creation now? What are you saying?

I said and I will make myself clear, God hates evil and the sins man does. God loves everyone but hates the sin that they do. If you are a sinner you choose to turn away God. And you will not be with him in heaven, its as simple as that. Rather God loves a sinner or not he will not give them eternal life if they do not turn from that sin. But he never stops loving a sinner. ITs as simple as that. So how can God love all of his creation but then hate the sinner. I know what scripture says. but who is understanding it wrong you or I? He can’t do both now can he?

I’m saying He ontologically loves all his creation. But He certainly does not love everything equally. He loves man more than rocks. He loves people full of grace more than mortal sinners because holy people have the divine in them. Nonetheless, ontologically speaking, God hates nothing in creation, and doesn’t even hate sinners in that sense.

God also loves sinners insofar as He wants them to go to heaven.

However, when you’re talking about hate in another sense, namely, “fighting against those who oppose’s one goal” then God does hate certain things, even sinners. If you don’t acknowledge that this is one of the legitimate definitions of hate, then the Bible is wrong.

I hope you understand me. I’m saying that all uses of the word “hate” are not the same (which is the case for a lot of words). In some cases, “hate” is used one way. In others, it’s used in another. You believe, apparently, it’s used in just one way. I, of course, disagree with that.

You keep saying that “God doesn’t hate sinners” in every sense. But the Scripture says “God hates sinners.” And then you respond, “No, God doesn’t hate sinners, He hates their actions” (I would agree that God hates their actions), but by denying that “God hates sinners” you are very explicitly contradicting Scripture. God cannot hate sinners and not hate sinners (unless, these two terms are not being used univocally … hint, hint).

So, you haven’t addressed why Scripture plainly says, “God hates sinners” and yet why it doesn’t contradict your argument that “God doesn’t hate sinners.” You must address this. Am I being unreasonable?

 

[rinnie]

Of course He can. I hope you would agree that God hates sin. That would be is a case where God isn’t loving at all.

I don’t see the connection between God’s unchangeableness and His supposed disability to love in varying degrees.

Let me ask you a question: Does God the Father love us more or God the Son more? Probably God the Son. Maybe you disagree. But if He loves the Son more, it follows that when we are in a state of grace we are then loved more by God because we then have the divine dwelling in us.

I also assume that you might agree that God loves us more than He loves a rock. Right? It’s because humans are made in the image of God and the rock is not. God sees Himself more in us than a rock, and hence loves us more. Same kind of thing happens with a person with grace compared to someone without grace.

It’s not like God Himself changes in these circumstances. It’s certainly the case that the creatures change in relation to God’s love. For example, when we sin, we lose the divine in us. It’s not like the divine changes in that case, but we change in relation to the divine.

I’m saying He ontologically loves all his creation. But He certainly does not love everything equally. He loves man more than rocks. He loves people full of grace more than mortal sinners because holy people have the divine in them. Nonetheless, ontologically speaking, God hates nothing in creation, and doesn’t even hate sinners in that sense.

God also loves sinners insofar as He wants them to go to heaven.

However, when you’re talking about hate in another sense, namely, “fighting against those who oppose’s one goal” then God does hate certain things, even sinners. If you don’t acknowledge that this is one of the legitimate definitions of hate, then the Bible is wrong.

I hope you understand me. I’m saying that all uses of the word “hate” are not the same (which is the case for a lot of words). In some cases, “hate” is used one way. In others, it’s used in another. You believe, apparently, it’s used in just one way. I, of course, disagree with that.

You keep saying that “God doesn’t hate sinners” in every sense. But the Scripture says “God hates sinners.” And then you respond, “No, God doesn’t hate sinners, He hates their actions” (I would agree that God hates their actions), but by denying that “God hates sinners” you are very explicitly contradicting Scripture. God cannot hate sinners and not hate sinners (unless, these two terms are not being used univocally … hint, hint).

So, you haven’t addressed why Scripture plainly says, “God hates sinners” and yet why it doesn’t contradict your argument that “God doesn’t hate sinners.” You must address this. Am I being unreasonable?

Because when it is stated that GOd hates sinners we understand that God hates no Man but hates the sins they commit. SO to say God hates sinners knowing that God loves all Man we know God is saying he hates it when Man sins.

Just like God hates a liar. Does that mean if we lie God hates us? You tell me, It says God hates liars in the bible does it not. So if I lie does God hate me? Or is it for me to understand God hates the lying that I do?

 

[rinnie]

Because if you are correct God hates alot of People. How many People in this world can say that they have never told a lie?

 

[Areopagite]

Because when it is stated that GOd hates sinners we understand that God hates no Man but hates the sins they commit. SO to say God hates sinners knowing that God loves all Man we know God is saying he hates it when Man sins.

Just like God hates a liar. Does that mean if we lie God hates us? You tell me, It says God hates liars in the bible does it not. So if I lie does God hate me? Or is it for me to understand God hates the lying that I do?

I would agree that God hates the lying one would do as well as any sin one commits.

However, Scripture says, “God hates sinners” and if it actually meant, “God hates the sin that sinners commit” … why didn’t it say that instead?

This proves, I believe, that “hate” can be used in different ways.

You see, you’re saying, again, that “God doesn’t hate sinners” but Scripture says, “God does hate sinners” but you’re saying that’s correct if it’s understood properly. Likewise, I would say that “God hates sinners” is true if it’s understood properly. Does that make sense?

Because if you are correct God hates alot of People. How many People in this world can say that they have never told a lie?

Yes, God hates just about everybody in that sense. But that’s okay, because in another sense, He hates no one. Most importantly, God loves us insofar as He wants what’s best for us and is working to get us into heaven. Yet, He hates us when we do evil insofar as He fights against us (though ultimately to try and bring out good in us and others).

I would be curious … does Scripture ever say that God doesn’t hate sinners? It obviously says God loves us, but that doesn’t exclude the idea that God also hates us in some sense.

Now, perhaps what’s necessary to clear up the disagreement is for you to define what you mean by love and hate. You haven’t really done that yet.