Does God love the Devil?

[rinnie]

I would agree that God hates the lying one would do as well as any sin one commits.

However, Scripture says, “God hates sinners” and if it actually meant, “God hates the sin that sinners commit” … why didn’t it say that instead?

This proves, I believe, that “hate” can be used in different ways.

You see, you’re saying, again, that “God doesn’t hate sinners” but Scripture says, “God does hate sinners” but you’re saying that’s correct if it’s understood properly. Likewise, I would say that “God hates sinners” is true if it’s understood properly. Does that make sense?

Yes, God hates just about everybody in that sense. But that’s okay, because in another sense, He hates no one. Most importantly, God loves us insofar as He wants what’s best for us and is working to get us into heaven. Yet, He hates us when we do evil insofar as He fights against us (though ultimately to try and bring out good in us and others).

I would be curious … does Scripture ever say that God doesn’t hate sinners? It obviously says God loves us, but that doesn’t exclude the idea that God also hates us in some sense.

Now, perhaps what’s necessary to clear up the disagreement is for you to define what you mean by love and hate. You haven’t really done that yet.

Oh no If it does state that God does not hate sinners point blank like that I missed it too. BUt it does state he hates sinners. and it does state he hates liars. So the balls in your court. Again if I see it your way he hates me too. Because I have told one or two, okay just added another to the list in my time. DOes God hate me? I am also a sinner, Does God hate me?

 

[rinnie]

See I am not trying to be mean or unreasonable. Trust me, At first I was thinking it another way too, But then I had to rethink my thinking if you know what I mean?

So now that I did see it another way I am trying to show you what I saw. Thats all.

So does God hate the devil. No not according to scripture.

Does God hate the works of the devil. OH YEAH:yup:

So now lets do it this way Does God hate the liar (the lies the person tells? Yep.
Does God hate the Person who tells lies? Nope

 

[jkiernan56]

See I am not trying to be mean or unreasonable. Trust me, At first I was thinking it another way too, But then I had to rethink my thinking if you know what I mean?

So now that I did see it another way I am trying to show you what I saw. Thats all.

So does God hate the devil. No not according to scripture.

Does God hate the works of the devil. OH YEAH:yup:

So now lets do it this way Does God hate the liar (the lies the person tells? Yep.
Does God hate the Person who tells lies? Nope

There is no goodness in the Devil for God to love other than his existence.
In that context, God does not love the Devil other than ontologically. Another way to say that is that God hates the Devil other than his existence. If there was any other kind of goodness in the Devil, then God would love the Devil to the degree that goodness is present. But since there is none other than existence… you get the picture.

The same holds true for each person. The more a person grows in holiness (the image of Christ), the more God loves the goodness present in that person.

 

[jkiernan56]

How much God loves YOU never changes by what you do or do not do.

I retract this because of a misunderstanding of God’s love. I now realize God loves me more as I grow in love (holiness).

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

There is no goodness in the Devil for God to love other than his existence.
In that context, God does not love the Devil other than ontologically. Another way to say that is that God hates the Devil other than his existence. If there was any other kind of goodness in the Devil, then God would love the Devil to the degree that goodness is present. But since there is none other than existence… you get the picture.

The same holds true for each person. The more a person grows in holiness (the image of Christ), [SIGN]the more God loves the goodness present in that person./[/SIGN]QUOTE]

We are getting closer

See God has one kind of LOVE. ITs Gods love rather we accept it or not. He Loves us. thats it. Love is love. Gods love never changes.

Now While I can’t say that God loves us more because we are good, and does not love us as much because we are bad, (see what I mean, he loves us thats it). But I can say God loves to see us be good, And hates to see us do bad. Now I do agree the more a person grows in Holiness that person is in the image of God, I have no problem with that.

ITs like me saying my Son is not as good as my daughter so I love my daughter more. See what I mean. I love them both the same and always will. But I can say my daughter is easier to love then my Son at times and vice versa but the love is still the same and still as strong. Even when they do bad or make mistakes I still love them. They may make me angry, and I hate what they do but love is love.

So while God does indeed love the devil for who he was, and what he was, and remember the devil was a angel at one time. God hates what the devil has become, and hates what he choose to do. He hates his works. And because the devil would not change and turn away from evil God had to let the devil go. And so God had to separate himself from the devil for Good. But because God had to separate himself from the devil I am sure it still hurt God to have to do that. BUt God will have no part of evil so he had to do what had to be done.

Just like us, Even if we do evil and become evil God still loves us, and wants us to turn away from evil. But we can choose evil also, and if we do we will separate ourself from God also. And as much as God loves us too, he will not accept us either if we choose evil. So God will never quit loving us either, but his love for us as powerful as it is, he will still reject us if we do not reject evil. Am I doing any better at explaining my point now?

 

[rinnie]

I retract this because of a misunderstanding of God’s love. I now realize God loves me more as I grow in love (holiness).

And see I do not agree with you. I agree with you the first time. God loves you no matter what you do good or bad. Because his love for us never changes.

I do not think God could love us anymore then he did from the moment he made us. It was there and never changed. But we choose to accept or reject that love. And that is by obeying his word or rejecting it. God gave us all free underserved Grace. We either grow in it and accept it, or throw it away. But it was a free gift from him. The devil threw it away.

 

[jkiernan56]

And see I do not agree with you. I agree with you the first time. God loves you no matter what you do good or bad. Because his love for us never changes.

I do not think God could love us anymore then he did from the moment he made us. It was there and never changed. But we choose to accept or reject that love. And that is by obeying his word or rejecting it. God gave us all free underserved Grace. We either grow in it and accept it, or throw it away. But it was a free gift from him. The devil threw it away.

I can understand your objections to this kind of talk about God’s love. Two days ago I agreed with you. Now I realize I did not understand fully the difference between God’s ontological love (God wanting and willing our existence) and His love for us as we grow in holines (virture) or vice (evil). I agree with you when we sin, God still loves us and desires our greatest good. That fact cannot change. He knows us completely. He knows all we can become (a heavenly creature) or the depths of evil we can sink to (a hellish creature). When God loves us, it is the goodness in us that He loves. This type of love is not the same as ontological love. It goes above and beyond ontological love. It means God loves what is good in us as a person. God does not love what is not good within us. Ultimately, it is the image of His eternal Son Christ that God loves in us. The more we grow in that image, the more we love God and the more love of God we can receive and give to others. In that context, I accept that God loves us more, the more we grow in holiness.

On the other hand, if we reject love (God) and end up eternally separated from God, there is no more goodness in us other than our existence. In that context, God only loves ontologically since in hell there is no goodness in any person or angel to be found. They cannot give love or receive love. God hates them in the sense that they have no inner goodness to love. He only loves them ontologically. But for those who have not yet gone to hell, there is still something good in a person (other than ontologically) for God to love.

I now realize because I did not understand the difference between the ways God loves us, I did not take sin as seriously as I should, but rather presumed God’s love and goodness. This is consistent with an article I read by St. Alphonsus Liguori titled “On The Number of Sins Beyond Which God Pardons No More”. Here is the link:

catholicapologetics.info/morality/general/number.htm

If God loves us in the way that I used to think, then why would there be a point where God pardons no more and pulls the plug? Clearly God loves the virtuous and hates the sinner.

 

[rinnie]

I can understand your objections to this kind of talk about God’s love. Two days ago I agreed with you. Now I realize I did not understand fully the difference between God’s ontological love (God wanting and willing our existence) and His love for us as we grow in holines (virture) or vice (evil). I agree with you when we sin, God still loves us and desires our greatest good. That fact cannot change. He knows us completely. He knows all we can become (a heavenly creature) or the depths of evil we can sink to (a hellish creature). When God loves us, it is the goodness in us that He loves. This type of love is not the same as ontological love. It goes above and beyond ontological love. It means God loves what is good in us as a person. God does not love what is not good within us. Ultimately, it is the image of His eternal Son Christ that God loves in us. The more we grow in that image, the more we love God and the more love of God we can receive and give to others. In that context, I accept that God loves us more, the more we grow in holiness.

On the other hand, if we reject love (God) and end up eternally separated from God, there is no more goodness in us other than our existence. In that context, God only loves ontologically since in hell there is no goodness in any person or angel to be found. They cannot give love or receive love. God hates them in the sense that they have no inner goodness to love. He only loves them ontologically. But for those who have not yet gone to hell, there is still something good in a person (other than ontologically) for God to love.

I now realize because I did not understand the difference between the ways God loves us, I did not take sin as seriously as I should, but rather presumed God’s love and goodness. This is consistent with an article I read by St. Alphonsus Liguori titled “On The Number of Sins Beyond Which God Pardons No More”. Here is the link:

catholicapologetics.info/morality/general/number.htm

If God loves us in the way that I used to think, then why would there be a point where God pardons no more and pulls the plug? Clearly God loves the virtuous and hates the sinner.

Okay lets do this. Lets give it the weekend, Pray on it, and Monday see what we come up with. What a easy question huh? So we thought in the beginning! I too have never been so confused. But I think I got it. But we will see. So lets pray and touch base Mon. Have a wonderful weekend!

 

[tonyrey]

catholicapologetics.info/morality/general/number.htm

“How many has God sent to Hell for the first offense? St. Gregory relates, that a child of five years, who had arrived at the use of reason, for having uttered a blasphemy, was seized by the Devil and carried to Hell. The divine Mother revealed to that great servant of God, Benedicta of Florence, that a boy of twelve years was damned after the first sin. Another boy of eight years died after his first sin, and was lost.”

If God loves us in the way that I used to think, then why would there be a point where God pardons no more and pulls the plug? Clearly God loves the virtuous and hates the sinner.

Saints are not infallible. It is absurd to believe a child is damned for all eternity for one unpremeditated exclamation. This kind of nonsense brings Christianity into disrepute and fosters atheism. It means Our Lord’s sacrifice on the Cross was in vain as far as that child is concerned and His infinite love is mingled with hatred for those who blaspheme…

Hatred is a negative, destructive emotion. It cannot be an attribute of the Creator Who never ceases loving His creatures. Those who deliberately reject God frustrate His love and make Him suffer. He suffered on the Cross but he did not hate those who caused His death. He continues to suffer in heaven because there cannot be love without sacrifice and suffering. God shares the suffering of all his creatures because He identifies Himself with them - even in hell.

He does not hate those who choose hell because He knows all evil is due to ignorance. It is culpable ignorance because they choose to live for themselves with full knowledge of the consequences. But their pride and delight in absolute power over themselves blinds them to the glory of God. It does not mar His joy though because He knows suffering is the inevitable consequence of freedom. He knows the infinite value of life far outweighs its drawbacks and without freedom there can be no love…

 

[tonyrey]

             * "How many has God sent to Hell for the first offense? St. Gregory relates, that a child of five years, who had arrived at the use of reason, for having uttered a blasphemy, was seized by the Devil and carried to Hell. The divine Mother revealed to that great servant of God, Benedicta of Florence, that a boy of twelve years was damned after the first sin. Another boy of eight years died after his first sin, and was lost." *

If God loves us in the way that I used to think, then why would there be a point where God pardons no more and pulls the plug? Clearly God loves the virtuous and hates the sinner.

It is absurd to believe a child is damned for all eternity for one unpremeditated exclamation. This kind of nonsense brings Christianity into disrepute and fosters atheism. It means Our Lord’s sacrifice on the Cross was in vain as far as that child is concerned and His infinite love is mingled with hatred for those who blaspheme…

Hatred is a negative, destructive emotion. It cannot be an attribute of our Creator Who never ceases loving His creatures. Those who deliberately reject God frustrate His love and make Him suffer. He suffered on the Cross but he did not hate those who caused His death. He continues to suffer in heaven because there cannot be love without suffering. God shares the suffering of all his creatures because He identifies Himself with them - even they are in hell.

He does not hate those who choose hell because He knows all evil is due to ignorance. It is culpable ignorance because they choose to live for themselves with full knowledge of the consequences. But their pride and delight in absolute power over themselves blind them to the glory of God. It does not mar His joy because He knows suffering is the inevitable consequence of freedom. He knows the infinite value of life far outweighs its drawbacks and without freedom there can be no love…

 

[jkiernan56]

It is absurd to believe a child is damned for all eternity for one unpremeditated exclamation. This kind of nonsense brings Christianity into disrepute and fosters atheism. It means Our Lord’s sacrifice on the Cross was in vain as far as that child is concerned and His infinite love is mingled with hatred for those who blaspheme…

Hatred is a negative, destructive emotion. It cannot be an attribute of our Creator Who never ceases loving His creatures. Those who deliberately reject God frustrate His love and make Him suffer. He suffered on the Cross but he did not hate those who caused His death. He continues to suffer in heaven because there cannot be love without suffering. God shares the suffering of all his creatures because He identifies Himself with them - even they are in hell.

He does not hate those who choose hell because He knows all evil is due to ignorance. It is culpable ignorance because they choose to live for themselves with full knowledge of the consequences. But their pride and delight in absolute power over themselves blind them to the glory of God. It does not mar His joy because He knows suffering is the inevitable consequence of freedom. He knows the infinite value of life far outweighs its drawbacks and without freedom there can be no love…

I believe you are the one who is ignorant and have have lost sight of the forest because of all the trees. Whether God did or did not pull the plug on a child for a first offense uttered blashemy is not for you or me to determine. That story is just A TREE and misses the whole point. St. Alphonsus Liguori wrote an article “On The Number of Sins Beyond Which God Pardons No More” which I wholeheartedly agree with. Here it is -

catholicapologetics.info/morality/general/number.htm

Yes, God loves us - period. But a person who knows the love of God and continues to live in serious sin - beware. Do not take God’s patience for granted. I am guilty of this.

I stand behind the idea that the more a person grows in holiness, the more God loves them and the more they are able to receive God’s love. They have become more “loveable” in a sense. The more a person grows in vice, the less God loves them and the less they are able to receive God’s love. They have become less “loveable”. God still loves them - but to what extent?

I would like to ask you a question and I would like you to answer it very specifically. Lets assume for the sake of this question that Adolph Hitler went to hell after he died. (We don’t know that for a fact, but lets assume that for the sake of this question).

Would you please tell me what does God love about Hitler in Hell? I know God loves Hitler in the sense that He gives Hitler his existence. But please tell me WHAT ELSE about Hitler that God loves if he is in Hell???

There is a point where a person has nothing “loveable” about them other than the fact that they exist. That place or state of being is called Hell.

You say the Lord continues to suffer in heaven for those in hell? Hmmmmmm …
"And He shall take away all their tears and death will be no more … " as Revelations tells us.
Jesus who is fully human like you and me, will also have no more tears. In fact, since hell is fixed and absolute, the only tears I believe Jesus still sheds are for you and me who are still on pilgrimage.

 

[jimcintosh]

Of course He can. I hope you would agree that God hates sin. That would be is a case where God isn’t loving at all.

I don’t see the connection between God’s unchangeableness and His supposed disability to love in varying degrees.

You can say that God always hated or God always loved, but you cannot say that God used to love and now hates or used to hate and now loves or used to love a little now loves more. It is just impossible if you want to believe in an infinite God then to say that God changes is to say that there is something that God was not and now is. That implies that God was lacking in something is now lacking in something which is impossible. God is infinite. This is basic theology here.

Look at it another way. Since time is part of the created order, God exists outside of time. God cannot be limited by time because he is the creator. All moments of time must be “now” to God. To say that God loves somewhat at one point in time and then more at another point in time is to say that God exists within time, that is, within the created order. This implies God was created and not the creator, and this we cannot believe.

more or God the Son more? Probably God the Son. Maybe you disagree. But if He loves the Son more, it follows that when we are in a state of grace we are then loved more by God because we then have the divine dwelling in us.

I also assume that you might agree that God loves us more than He loves a rock. Right? It’s because humans are made in the image of God and the rock is not. God sees Himself more in us than a rock, and hence loves us more. Same kind of thing happens with a person with grace compared to someone without grace.

It’s not like God Himself changes in these circumstances. It’s certainly the case that the creatures change in relation to God’s love. For example, when we sin, we lose the divine in us. It’s not like the divine changes in that case, but we change in relation to the divine.

I’m saying He ontologically loves all his creation. But He certainly does not love everything equally. He loves man more than rocks. He loves people full of grace more than mortal sinners because holy people have the divine in them. Nonetheless, ontologically speaking, God hates nothing in creation, and doesn’t even hate sinners in that sense.

God also loves sinners insofar as He wants them to go to heaven.

However, when you’re talking about hate in another sense, namely, “fighting against those who oppose’s one goal” then God does hate certain things, even sinners. If you don’t acknowledge that this is one of the legitimate definitions of hate, then the Bible is wrong.

I hope you understand me. I’m saying that all uses of the word “hate” are not the same (which is the case for a lot of words). In some cases, “hate” is used one way. In others, it’s used in another. You believe, apparently, it’s used in just one way. I, of course, disagree with that.

You keep saying that “God doesn’t hate sinners” in every sense. But the Scripture says “God hates sinners.” And then you respond, “No, God doesn’t hate sinners, He hates their actions” (I would agree that God hates their actions), but by denying that “God hates sinners” you are very explicitly contradicting Scripture. God cannot hate sinners and not hate sinners (unless, these two terms are not being used univocally … hint, hint).

So, you haven’t addressed why Scripture plainly says, “God hates sinners” and yet why it doesn’t contradict your argument that “God doesn’t hate sinners.” You must address this. Am I being unreasonable?

Do you love your children more or yourself more? This is kind of a crazy question if you’re asking it about a being whose love is infinite, who is love. How can you possibly quantify love which is infinite as being anything but infinite. To say that God’s love is not infinite to to deny the infiniteness of God, which we cannot do. If God’s love is infinite, how can God love more than infinitely? This is like the goofy kids in fourth grade learning about the mathematical concept of infinity and asking if there can be an “infinity plus one.” There can’t be.

There was a time when humans thought their gods were like themselves, only grander and with more power. These are Zeus, Jupiter, Thor, the gods of the Romans and the Greeks. They loved, they hated, they got jealous. They occasionally came down and fathered children with pretty women who had caught their eye (you can see a remnant of this in Genesis 6:1-4).

It was the Jews who say past this pettiness and saw that there was one God who was the creator. A God who was infinite. This is the God we worship.

This God is sometimes hard to grasp because this God is different from us. I sometimes like to see the various faiths and think of the story of the blind men and the elephant. One grabbed the elephant’s ear and said, “An elephant is like a big leaf.” Another encountered the elephant’s leg and said, “An elephant is like a tree.” Another, on encountering the elephant’s nose, said, “An elephant is like a hose.” And so forth.

Since we believe that Jesus is Lord, we take his description to be more accurate and Jesus told us that God is Father, God is loving parent. Chapter 4 of 1 John tells us that God is love.

To be created is to be loved by God. And God’s love is infinite. It is infinite for each of us “as if there were no other”. God’s love for you is infinite, for me is infinite, for the rock in my garden is infinite. All of creation sings the glory of God.

It is tempting to want that God who grows in love as we hopefully do, who watches over us through time as if God were part of the created order, who can turn God’s love on and off. This, however, cannot be a description of our God. Our God’s love, as is God, is infinite.

 

[jimcintosh]

I stand behind the idea that the more a person grows in holiness, the more God loves them and the more they are able to receive God’s love. They have become more “loveable” in a sense. The more a person grows in vice, the less God loves them and the less they are able to receive God’s love. They have become less “loveable”. God still loves them - but to what extent?

I would like to ask you a question and I would like you to answer it very specifically. Lets assume for the sake of this question that Adolph Hitler went to hell after he died. (We don’t know that for a fact, but lets assume that for the sake of this question).

Would you please tell me what does God love about Hitler in Hell? I know God loves Hitler in the sense that He gives Hitler his existence. But please tell me WHAT ELSE about Hitler that God loves if he is in Hell???

For your first statement, I agree that “the more a person grows in holiness, … the more they are able to receive God’s love. They have become more ‘loveable’ in a sense. The more a person grows in vice, … the less they are able to receive God’s love. They have become less 'loveable´.”

I cannot agree that God loves them more or loves them less. See my last post. God’s love is infinite, but that does not mean that our capacity to receive that love is anything but fraught with human frailty. As we sin, we close ourselves to God’s love, but that love remains infinite and unwavering.

As to your second point, we are all a mixture of sin and goodness. All of us – only Jesus and Mary were exempt. The greatest saints repeatedly tell us they are also the greatest sinners. I like to think that I have more goodness that badness within me, but I struggle. We all do. We have things the open us up to God’s love and we have things which close us off from God’s love.

There’s an autobiography written by Rudolf Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz, which is a fascinating read. This is a man who was overseeing the murder of millions of people who went home at night to his loving wife and daughters. They clearly found something lovable in this man who we would see as a monster. Eva Braun saw a side of Hitler with which she was deeply in love.

We all have goodness and badness – one could say evil or sin – within us. It is thus to be human. God loves us. Since God is infinite, God’s love is infinite. We are the ones who block that love. If we do so completely, we believe that we will do so for all eternity. This we call hell. It does not mean that God does not love us infinitely; it only means that we have chosen to block ourselves from that love.

 

[Areopagite]

Hatred is a negative, destructive emotion. It cannot be an attribute of our Creator Who never ceases loving His creatures.

Aquinas said that both “hate” and “love” can be attributed to certain emotions, but they can also be attributed to the will. It is not being argued here that God has any emotions. But He does have a certain kind of hate (of His will) that apply, for example (as I hope you agree), to people’s sins.

Those who deliberately reject God frustrate His love and make Him suffer.

What do you mean by “frustrate his love”?

He suffered on the Cross but he did not hate those who caused His death. He continues to suffer in heaven because there cannot be love without suffering. God shares the suffering of all his creatures because He identifies Himself with them - even they are in hell.

Yeah … I’d like to see some sources on this one.

He does not hate those who choose hell because He knows all evil is due to ignorance. It is culpable ignorance because they choose to live for themselves with full knowledge of the consequences. But their pride and delight in absolute power over themselves blind them to the glory of God. It does not mar His joy because He knows suffering is the inevitable consequence of freedom. He knows the infinite value of life far outweighs its drawbacks and without freedom there can be no love…

It is true that all sin is due to some level of ignorance, and as you say it’s a kind of culpable ignorance because it’s willfully turning away from the truth (for if all truth was completely exposed to us, we would be fulfilled and unable to turn away from it … that’s what the beatific vision is). However, nonetheless, we have enough knowledge to know better and hence be culpable … and thus do genuine evil. Thus, they willfully fight God, and God fights back … and since God fights them, it can be said in one sense that He hates them (as the Scriptures say) because one hates things that tries to thwart your goal (as Aquinas says).

You can say that God always hated or God always loved, but you cannot say that God used to love and now hates or used to hate and now loves or used to love a little now loves more. It is just impossible if you want to believe in an infinite God then to say that God changes is to say that there is something that God was not and now is. That implies that God was lacking in something is now lacking in something which is impossible. God is infinite. This is basic theology here.

A good argument. I definitely agree with you that God can’t change. But, once again, God’s love applies differently to different things at different times. It’s creatures that change in relation to God’s love.

To further show this, you agree that God hates sin and loves virtue right? So, thus, it can be true that God may not have a consistent love of your behavior, because your behavior changes (oscillating from virtue to vice). Now, just because God’s love “changes” with respect to your behavior, it also “changes” with respect to people depending on … well … how their behaving. But once again, God’s love literally does not change, but applies differently to different things and different times. I hope that makes sense.

How can you possibly quantify love which is infinite as being anything but infinite. To say that God’s love is not infinite to to deny the infiniteness of God, which we cannot do. If God’s love is infinite, how can God love more than infinitely? This is like the goofy kids in fourth grade learning about the mathematical concept of infinity and asking if there can be an “infinity plus one.” There can’t be.

There are in fact ways to compare the sizes of different finds of infinity (either Calculus, Set theory, or number theory deals with that … it’s been awhile). And also there are infinite sets that include other infinite sets but not vice versa. So, it is not impossible to “quantify” infinity. God can love things in varying infinite amounts.

 

[Areopagite]

There was a time when humans thought their gods were like themselves, only grander and with more power. These are Zeus, Jupiter, Thor, the gods of the Romans and the Greeks. They loved, they hated, they got jealous. They occasionally came down and fathered children with pretty women who had caught their eye (you can see a remnant of this in Genesis 6:1-4).

I know, the gods were sinful. They loved things in ways they shouldn’t have, and they hated things they shouldn’t have. But God loves and hates in ways that he should.

This God is sometimes hard to grasp because this God is different from us. I sometimes like to see the various faiths and think of the story of the blind men and the elephant. One grabbed the elephant’s ear and said, “An elephant is like a big leaf.” Another encountered the elephant’s leg and said, “An elephant is like a tree.” Another, on encountering the elephant’s nose, said, “An elephant is like a hose.” And so forth.

But little do they know … that the truth is a Republican. (sorry, I couldn’t resist … not to say that I’m a Republican or Democrat … for what it’s worth, I’m neither)

Right, and different people with incomplete views of God will say either that God is loving in every way or hateful in every way. The view I’m proposing seems in a sense to be balanced and include a fuller perspective … particularly, God is loving in one way but can be hateful in another.

God’s love for you is infinite, for me is infinite, for the rock in my garden is infinite.

God loves me more than the rock.

As to your second point, we are all a mixture of sin and goodness. All of us – only Jesus and Mary were exempt. The greatest saints repeatedly tell us they are also the greatest sinners. I like to think that I have more goodness that badness within me, but I struggle. We all do. We have things the open us up to God’s love and we have things which close us off from God’s love.

Are you saying that saints had just as much sin in them as holiness? Or is it the case that the saint’s own sin was more apparent to him than the sin of anyone else’s?

There’s an autobiography written by Rudolf Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz, which is a fascinating read. This is a man who was overseeing the murder of millions of people who went home at night to his loving wife and daughters. They clearly found something lovable in this man who we would see as a monster. Eva Braun saw a side of Hitler with which she was deeply in love.

The devil can take beautiful and charming forms too. But we’re not talking about externals (whether it be physique or personality or whatever) but one’s heart and whether it’s full of sin or not.

We all have goodness and badness – one could say evil or sin – within us. It is thus to be human. God loves us. Since God is infinite, God’s love is infinite. We are the ones who block that love. If we do so completely, we believe that we will do so for all eternity. This we call hell. It does not mean that God does not love us infinitely; it only means that we have chosen to block ourselves from that love.

Yes, we are the ones that block the love of God. Thus, in mortal sin, do we have the love of God? … well, NO in one sense. God still loves us in the sense of trying to get us into heaven and wanting what’s best for us, and in the sense that He sees our existence as good, for our very existence is a reflection of Himself. But His love decreases in us and we reject Him, and in that sense He loves us less. Also, He hates us in the sense that He fights us for trying to thwart His goal.

If we don’t acknowledge that last legitimate usage of hate, we potentially breed atheists who easily see how we very explicitly contradict those various Scriptural passages.

For those who still disagree … please, define what you mean by love and hate. Otherwise this discussion’s going nowhere.

 

[jkiernan56]

You can say that God always hated or God always loved, but you cannot say that God used to love and now hates or used to hate and now loves or used to love a little now loves more. It is just impossible if you want to believe in an infinite God then to say that God changes is to say that there is something that God was not and now is. That implies that God was lacking in something is now lacking in something which is impossible. God is infinite. This is basic theology here.

You and I are on the same page with basic theology. God is infinitely perfect. God lacks nothing. God needs nothing. God could have continued in BEING for all eternity without every creating anything or anyone. God is a COMMUNITY of Three Persons infinitely and eternally loving one another. God is completely happy and does not need us. Wanting us is not the same thing as needing us.

By saying that God loves us more the more we grow in holiness DOES NOT IMPLY God has changed in someway. We both agree that God does not change. It is you and I who change. How we change is the subject. If we grow in holiness, there is a something IN US that has changed - not in God. If we grow in vice (evil), there is something IN US that has changed - not in God. If you accept the fact that it is You and I who change and not God, then that does seemingly present a problem by saying what God “loves” or “hates” in us also changes.

Let me try this analogy. You know that the moon has no light of its own. The only light that the moon has comes from the Sun. Let’s suppose that we are able to move the position of the moon in relationship to the Sun. Let’s suppose we can move the moon closer or further away from the Sun. Lets also acknowledge that the Sun does not change position or intensity of its rays in any way, shape, or form. Let’s suppose that we move (change) the position of the moon to be closer to the Sun. What do you think the consequence of that change is? Does it take on more of the lightness of the Sun and become brighter? Does it shine more because it is closer to the Sun? On the other hand, lets suppose we move (change) the position of the moon to be further away from the Sun. Does the moon’s brightness lessen in any way? Again, let me emphasize that the Sun has not moved ONE IOTA. It is still in the same position.

When I am talking about growing in holiness or evil, I am speaking about a person who is growing closer to Christ (THE SON) or further away from Christ (the perfect image of God). As we grow closer to Christ, the more of His image we shine. The further away we get from Christ, the less of His image shines through us. This is the sense and context I am speaking about that God “loves” or “hates” IN US changes according to how we change.

God does not gain or loose anything. God is perfect. It is us that is gaining or loosing something. God can only love what is good and holy. The more that goodness and holiness grows in us, there is something “more in us” that God loves. God is still God. He doesn’t change as you so well stated as basic theology. The part about God loving us more or hating us more - is ALL ABOUT US and what has changed IN US - not God.

 

[tonyrey]

I believe you are the one who is **ignorant **and have lost sight of the forest because of all the trees.

That remark is uncharitable.

Whether God did or did not pull the plug on a child for a first offense uttered blashemy is not for you or me to determine. That story is just A TREE and misses the whole point. St. Alphonsus Liguori wrote an article “On The Number of Sins Beyond Which God Pardons No More” which I wholeheartedly agree with. Here it is -

The fact that a saint has been canonised does not mean he was infallible…

I would like to ask you a question and I would like you to answer it very specifically. Lets assume for the sake of this question that Adolph Hitler went to hell after he died. (We don’t know that for a fact, but lets assume that for the sake of this question).Would you please tell me what does God love about Hitler in Hell? I know God loves Hitler in the sense that He gives Hitler his existence. But please tell me WHAT ELSE about Hitler that God loves if he is in Hell???

We do not know to what extent Hitler was responsible. He may well have been possessed… Even if he was responsible it is not for us to judge him as deserving **eternal misery. **It is not even our business to establish rules about what happens after we die. All we know for certain is that hell exists because it is part of the teaching of Christ. The rest is idle speculation…

There is a point where a person has nothing “lovable” about them other than the fact that they exist. That place or state of being is called Hell.

No one can possibly know that a person has nothing “lovable”.

You say the Lord continues to suffer in heaven for those in hell? Hmmmmmm …
"And He shall take away all their tears and death will be no more … " as Revelations tells us.
Jesus who is fully human like you and me, will also have no more tears.

Do you think that Jesus does not share the suffering of others? That God is indifferent to what happens in this world?

In fact, since hell is fixed and absolute, the only tears I believe Jesus still sheds are for you and me who are still on pilgrimage.

Free will must be a sharing in God’s power because it enables us to reject His love. There is no reason to suppose we lose our freedom when we die. If we did we would be incapable of love. So there is no reason to suppose those who are in hell lose their freedom and will never repent. We do know that God is infinitely merciful… and that Jesus died for everyone without exception… We should leave the rest to God…

 

[Areopagite]

Free will must be a sharing in God’s power because it enables us to reject His love. There is no reason to suppose we lose our freedom when we die. If we did we would be incapable of love. So there is no reason to suppose those who are in hell lose their freedom and will never repent. We do know that God is infinitely merciful… and that Jesus died for everyone without exception… We should leave the rest to God…

Depends what you mean by “freedom.” There are many definitions. One definition is “the ability to pursue the good.” Souls in heaven retain that freedom. But if you mean “the ability to commit sin” then the souls in heaven do not have that freedom. The souls nonetheless still love God, as they had made the free will choice to love Him on earth. The reason they will not reject God in heaven is because they can no longer lie to themselves because the truth is fully exposed to them, such that no lie is possible. In short.

Also, can you cite a source (of any Church document or saint or anything) that says the souls in hell can repent? Aquinas rejected it as well as many others. In fact, the only people who argue that the souls in hell can repent seem to be the heretics. There is absolutely nothing in Church tradition (correct me if I’m wrong) that lends evidence that the Church ever believed that in any way. But maybe I’m wrong.

 

[Benadam]

Earthly life exists in a state of ‘becoming’. When we die we enter into the eternal state which is a state of changelessness. The reason we, or any creature is fit to judge is because we have entered into an eternal condition or state. A changeless condition or state. No one who is in a state of eternally rejecting God is able to enter a state of becoming and change their attitude towards God and begin loving Him and so repent.

A creature in an eternal state of rejecting God is not worthy of love. hat’s why we don’t pray for souls in hell. It’s futile. Love is an act of will. God doesn’t engage in acts that are futile. God doesn’t love the devil.

In eternity God is revealed to the creature in as much as it is proper to the creature to recieve God. If the creature rejects God after recieving the fullness of God there is no more that can be done to change the creatures attitude towards God.

In giving Himself fully to the creature God has loved the creature and if God is rejected in this fullness there is no more that God can do. God doesn’t eternally give Himself to a creature who eternally rejects Him.

God does not love the Devil.

 

[jkiernan56]

Since God is infinite, God’s love is infinite.

I know I am going to catch hell for this, but here goes - LOL.

Your statement about God’s infinite love is both true and false depending on the context.
God’s love is infinite between the three Persons of the Trinity. I do not believe God’s love for mankind is infinite. Why? Because we are finite.

God the Father’s love for His eternal Son is infinite.
The Son’s love for the Father is infinite.
The love of the Father for the Son and the Son for the Father is infinite - WHO is the Holy Spirit.
In the Holy Trinity, God’s love is infinite. I totally agree.

Where I disagree is saying God’s love for man is infinite. I can already loudly hear your objections. But before you write me off, please let me explain what I mean by this.

God does not love us infinitely because we are not infinite. We are finite. The love of Christ on the cross was an infinite act of love - but for whom? His Father. Christ saying YES to His Father and surrendering Himself to the Father to be crucified on a cross for our sins was an infinite act of love BY THE SON FOR THE FATHER… It was infinite because it was done by the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity who is infinite. It is efficacious for the sins of the world because it was an INFINITE ACT OF LOVE by the Son FOR THE FATHER. Only in that context is the cross of Christ an act of infinite love.

It could only be an infinite act of love for us IF WE WERE INFINITE. Does God love each of us infinitely? Does God does love everyone exactly same? I believe the answer is a clear - NO!!! He loves each of us as much of us there is to love. Some people in Heaven are loved MORE by God. The greater the goodness in each person, the more is in them for God to love.

The more they are loved, the more God’s life shines in and through their soul. Mary will shine the brightest in Heaven. She is the one who is most loved by God. If you think of your soul as a cup that is able to hold water, some souls are able to hold more water than others in heaven. Some have bigger containers. All will be full in heaven, but some in heaven will contain more of God’s love than others.

God does not love us infinitely, but only the amount to which He sees the image of His Son in each of us. His act of love on the cross was infinite - but only infinite by the Son (who is infinite) for the Father (who is infinite).

I can already hear the wolves howling … .LOL