Does God love the Devil?

[Areopagite]

I know I am going to catch hell for this, but here goes - LOL.

Your statement about God’s infinite love is both true and false depending on the context.
God’s love is infinite between the three Persons of the Trinity. I do not believe God’s love for mankind is infinite. Why? Because we are finite.

God the Father’s love for His eternal Son is infinite.
The Son’s love for the Father is infinite.
The love of the Father for the Son and the Son for the Father is infinite - WHO is the Holy Spirit.
In the Holy Trinity, God’s love is infinite. I totally agree.

Where I disagree is saying God’s love for man is infinite. I can already loudly hear your objections. But before you write me off, please let me explain what I mean by this.

God does not love us infinitely because we are not infinite. We are finite. The love of Christ on the cross was an infinite act of love - but for whom? His Father. Christ saying YES to His Father and surrendering Himself to the Father to be crucified on a cross for our sins was an infinite act of love BY THE SON FOR THE FATHER… It was infinite because it was done by the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity who is infinite. It is efficacious for the sins of the world because it was an INFINITE ACT OF LOVE by the Son FOR THE FATHER. Only in that context is the cross of Christ an act of infinite love.

It could only be an infinite act of love for us IF WE WERE INFINITE. Does God love each of us infinitely? Does God does love everyone exactly same? I believe the answer is a clear - NO!!! He loves each of us as much of us there is to love. Some people in Heaven are loved MORE by God. The greater the goodness in each person, the more is in them for God to love.

The more they are loved, the more God’s life shines in and through their soul. Mary will shine the brightest in Heaven. She is the one who is most loved by God. If you think of your soul as a cup that is able to hold water, some souls are able to hold more water than others in heaven. Some have bigger containers. All will be full in heaven, but some in heaven will contain more of God’s love than others.

God does not love us infinitely, but only the amount to which He sees the image of His Son in each of us. His act of love on the cross was infinite - but only infinite by the Son (who is infinite) for the Father (who is infinite).

I can already hear the wolves howling … .LOL

Jkiernan, you may be right. I don’t have the credentials at the moment to disprove this.

However, I am inclined (purely because it “feels right”) to say that God does love us infinitely, but in varying infinite amounts. I explained this a bit (well, not really), when I explained how there are different sizes of infinity (which high level mathematics even admits). I would say that if God sees the image of His Son in us at all, then right there I think He has infinite love for us. However, this is not to say that His love isn’t increased when the image of the Son is greater in someone else.

But, heck, I might be off. I suppose “infinity” must be defined. And that’s a headache.

 

[tonyrey]

Depends what you mean by “freedom.” There are many definitions. One definition is “the ability to pursue the good.” Souls in heaven retain that freedom. But if you mean “the ability to commit sin” then the souls in heaven do not have that freedom. The souls nonetheless still love God, as they had made the free will choice to love Him on earth. The reason they will not reject God in heaven is because they can no longer lie to themselves because the truth is fully exposed to them, such that no lie is possible. In short.

The most adequate definition of freedom is the power of self-determination. It certainly entails the ability to reject God’s love and defy His will. If the persons in heaven cannot reject God they are no longer free and incapable of love in the full sense of the word. It would mean that the account of the fallen angels is false…

Also, can you cite a source (of any Church document or saint or anything) that says the souls in hell can repent? Aquinas rejected it as well as many others. In fact, the only people who argue that the souls in hell can repent seem to be the heretics. There is absolutely nothing in Church tradition (correct me if I’m wrong) that lends evidence that the Church ever believed that in any way. But maybe I’m wrong.

I am not aware of anything in Church tradition that states that those who are in hell have lost their greatest gift by which they most resemble God: their power to choose for themselves and shape their own destiny. I am not denying that they **may **choose to remain in hell for all eternity but I do deny that they can be **beyond the power of redemption **by God’s infinite mercy and love which are evident in the suffering and death of Our Lord on the Cross. If that is heresy then I am most certainly a heretic…

 

[jimcintosh]

I know I am going to catch hell for this, but here goes - LOL.

Your statement about God’s infinite love is both true and false depending on the context.
God’s love is infinite between the three Persons of the Trinity. I do not believe God’s love for mankind is infinite. Why? Because we are finite.

God the Father’s love for His eternal Son is infinite.
The Son’s love for the Father is infinite.
The love of the Father for the Son and the Son for the Father is infinite - WHO is the Holy Spirit.
In the Holy Trinity, God’s love is infinite. I totally agree.

Where I disagree is saying God’s love for man is infinite. I can already loudly hear your objections. But before you write me off, please let me explain what I mean by this.

God does not love us infinitely because we are not infinite. We are finite. The love of Christ on the cross was an infinite act of love - but for whom? His Father. Christ saying YES to His Father and surrendering Himself to the Father to be crucified on a cross for our sins was an infinite act of love BY THE SON FOR THE FATHER… It was infinite because it was done by the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity who is infinite. It is efficacious for the sins of the world because it was an INFINITE ACT OF LOVE by the Son FOR THE FATHER. Only in that context is the cross of Christ an act of infinite love.

It could only be an infinite act of love for us IF WE WERE INFINITE. Does God love each of us infinitely? Does God does love everyone exactly same? I believe the answer is a clear - NO!!! He loves each of us as much of us there is to love. Some people in Heaven are loved MORE by God. The greater the goodness in each person, the more is in them for God to love.

The more they are loved, the more God’s life shines in and through their soul. Mary will shine the brightest in Heaven. She is the one who is most loved by God. If you think of your soul as a cup that is able to hold water, some souls are able to hold more water than others in heaven. Some have bigger containers. All will be full in heaven, but some in heaven will contain more of God’s love than others.

God does not love us infinitely, but only the amount to which He sees the image of His Son in each of us. His act of love on the cross was infinite - but only infinite by the Son (who is infinite) for the Father (who is infinite).

I can already hear the wolves howling … .LOL

Hahaha. No, I’m not going to howl, only restate my point. God’s is love. God is infinite. God’s love for each of us, then, is infinite.

I like your metaphor of the moon. Perhaps Mary, being conceived without sin, can accept that love most completely and therefore appear to be more loved. The rest of us block some or all of that love and therefore appear to be less loved.

How we appear or how much we are open to God’s love cannot limit God’s love for us. God is love. God is infinite.

Are you saying that saints had just as much sin in them as holiness? Or is it the case that the saint’s own sin was more apparent to him than the sin of anyone else’s?

My dad used to tell me “the more you know, the more you know you don’t know.” That is, I don’t know much about physics. I know some basic, high school material. I think that I know a bit but if I began to study physics then I would encounter whole areas about which I know nothing. Each of us, whatever our careers or fields of study, realize how little we know about the subject.

I think the same is true in our relation to God. I think most of us think we are basically good people. When someone dies, no one talks about purgatory or hell. We say “they are in a better place” or “they are at peace now”.

But, like me studying physics, the more I delve into my relationship with God, the more depth I see. The more I see in how many ways I am closing myself off to God’s infinite love, that is, how much I sin. The closer I get to God, the more I see how far away and unknowing God is. It is in this way that the more holy a person is, the more they realize how much of a sinner they are.

Like anything, this way is fraught with danger. This can lead to the “dark night of the soul”. Read the letters of Mother Teresa to see how this can lead to a total estrangement from God.

It may be easier and more comforting to keep our childhood ideas about God – that is, a wise father with a long white beard, a very European-looking Jesus and a bird. It may be easier to think of a god who withholds love or even hates, as an earthly parent can, or who gets jealous, who sends down lightning bolts on the evil, etc. This may be easier and more comforting, but, like my knowledge of physics, it leaves me ignorant and stagnate.

 

[jkiernan56]

Jkiernan, you may be right. I don’t have the credentials at the moment to disprove this.

However, I am inclined (purely because it “feels right”) to say that God does love us infinitely, but in varying infinite amounts. I explained this a bit (well, not really), when I explained how there are different sizes of infinity (which high level mathematics even admits). I would say that if God sees the image of His Son in us at all, then right there I think He has infinite love for us. However, this is not to say that His love isn’t increased when the image of the Son is greater in someone else.

But, heck, I might be off. I suppose “infinity” must be defined. And that’s a headache.

You are the one who got me into this mode of thinking about how does God love us other than ontologically. I’m not going to let you off the hook just yet … LOL

Different amounts of infinite love … hmmmm … I’ll have to ponder that one.

If God “loves” us more the more we grow in holiness, that raises all kinds of questions. I do know some people in heaven will be MORE full of God’s love than others. All will be full, but some will be MORE full than others. I used the analogy of the varying size of cups. Some people will have the size of a thimble, others the size of a tea cup, and still others the size of a 5 gallon jug and so forth. Each of us according to how we cooperate with God’s plan here and now determine the degree or capacity to how much of God’s love our soul will fully contain. I do not buy into the idea that we will all shine the exact same in heaven. Some people will shine brighter than others. Mary will shine the brightess next to her Son. Mother Teresa of Calcutta will shine very bright with God’s love and life. She already did here on earth. Clearly Teresa was a citizen of heaven here on earth (in my estimation). Other people will not shine as bright as her. All will be fully loved in heaven, but in that sense some will be MORE fully loved than others. God may love us infinitely, but how much of that infinite love we can receive and contain depends on how we live our life here and now and seek to love God and others … including these annoying and obnoxious athiests and agnostics on this web site … LOL

 

[tonyrey]

I think most of us think we are basically good people. When someone dies, no one talks about purgatory or hell. We say “they are in a better place” or “they are at peace now”.

A very important observation. We **are **basically good people but we tend to think we are better than we are because we have avoided serious sins - forgetting that probably our worst sins are sins of omission., e.g. ignoring the plight of those who are worse off than we are. Of course there is a limit to what we can do but I suspect most of us don’t reach that limit…

 

[Benadam]

The most adequate definition of freedom is the power of self-determination.

Tony, self determination is a part of our nature as rational beings. Freedom as the Church defines it is the ability to do what ought to be done. IOW true freedom is the ability to do what God wills.

 

[Areopagite]

You are the one who got me into this mode of thinking about how does God love us other than ontologically. I’m not going to let you off the hook just yet … LOL

Understandable.

And thanks again, Jkiernan, for your support. You have been most reasonable and encouraging.

Different amounts of infinite love … hmmmm … I’ll have to ponder that one.

If God “loves” us more the more we grow in holiness, that raises all kinds of questions. I do know some people in heaven will be MORE full of God’s love than others. All will be full, but some will be MORE full than others. I used the analogy of the varying size of cups. Some people will have the size of a thimble, others the size of a tea cup, and still others the size of a 5 gallon jug and so forth. Each of us according to how we cooperate with God’s plan here and now determine the degree or capacity to how much of God’s love our soul will fully contain. I do not buy into the idea that we will all shine the exact same in heaven. Some people will shine brighter than others. Mary will shine the brightess next to her Son. Mother Teresa of Calcutta will shine very bright with God’s love and life. She already did here on earth. Clearly Teresa was a citizen of heaven here on earth (in my estimation). Other people will not shine as bright as her. All will be fully loved in heaven, but in that sense some will be MORE fully loved than others. God may love us infinitely, but how much of that infinite love we can receive and contain depends on how we live our life here and now and seek to love God and others … including these annoying and obnoxious athiests and agnostics on this web site … LOL

Yes, I agree with that cup analogy completely. I’m also saying that perhaps it can be paradoxically reconciled with the idea that God loves everyone infinitely too. That is, we have varying amounts of infinite divine love. (because, once again, there are different sizes of infinity … as attested to by both philosophy and mathematics)

But perhaps to only go about this in a truly reasonable way would be to define what “infinite love” actually means. I, for one, have no idea.

 

[jkiernan56]

Understandable.

And thanks again, Jkiernan, for your support. You have been most reasonable and encouraging.

Yes, I agree with that cup analogy completely. I’m also saying that perhaps it can be paradoxically reconciled with the idea that God loves everyone infinitely too. That is, we have varying amounts of infinite divine love. (because, once again, there are different sizes of infinity … as attested to by both philosophy and mathematics)

But perhaps to only go about this in a truly reasonable way would be to define what “infinite love” actually means. I, for one, have no idea.

I concede to the idea that God loves each of us infinitely. How much of God’s love we are able to receive and shine to others will depend on our cooperation with God’s grace. I recalled the scripture where Jesus is quoted as saying “as the Father has loved me, so also have I loved you.” The Father loves the Son infinitely and thus the Son has loved us by His infinite act of love on the cross - LOVE FOR THE FATHER and FOR US. How much of that infinite love each of us will be able to receive is variable. Some will shine brighter in heaven than others. In that context, I am rephrasing what I said earlier that God loves some people more, the more they grow in holiness. For some, their is more goodness in them to love. There is more of the image of Christ shining through their soul. Mary shines the brightest because she of all women is the most blessed, full of grace, and it is she who most mirrors the holiness and image of her Son/son.

 

[Areopagite]

I concede to the idea that God loves each of us infinitely. How much of God’s love we are able to receive and shine to others will depend on our cooperation with God’s grace. I recalled the scripture where Jesus is quoted as saying “as the Father has loved me, so also have I loved you.” The Father loves the Son infinitely and thus the Son has loved us by His infinite act of love on the cross - LOVE FOR THE FATHER and FOR US. How much of that infinite love each of us will be able to receive is variable. Some will shine brighter in heaven than others. In that context, I am rephrasing what I said earlier that God loves some people more, the more they grow in holiness. For some, their is more goodness in them to love. There is more of the image of Christ shining through their soul. Mary shines the brightest because she of all women is the most blessed, full of grace, and it is she who most mirrors the holiness and image of her Son/son.

Yeah, I think I’m on board with you here. This sounds pretty good.

 

[jimcintosh]

Yeah, I think I’m on board with you here. This sounds pretty good.

This is great. A long discussion leading to one conclusion. Amazing! If this could only happen in, say, the U.S. Congress.

And what is our answer to the initial question? Does God love the Devil?

 

[jkiernan56]

This is great. A long discussion leading to one conclusion. Amazing! If this could only happen in, say, the U.S. Congress.

And what is our answer to the initial question? Does God love the Devil?

The answer as I’ve understood it is - Yes, God loves the Devil - but only ONTOLOGICALLY. There is nothing else to love or is “loveable” about the Devil.

 

[rinnie]

Okay lets do this. Lets give it the weekend, Pray on it, and Monday see what we come up with. What a easy question huh? So we thought in the beginning! I too have never been so confused. But I think I got it. But we will see. So lets pray and touch base Mon. Have a wonderful weekend!

I have thought about this all weekend and here is what I came up with. In the beginning God made Adam and Eve. And there was the tree. Eve ate from that tree and sinned. Pretty simple. But not really, by her sin she drew Adam into it. So they both separated themself from God by their sin.

Now God was angry with them, not only for sinning but because they would not repent.

Now does God hate Adam and Eve? No he does not. So was the devil at first like Adam? He was good in the beginning. But he chose to not repent so he chose death, death of the soul.

So no I do not think God hates anyone. But he will let us all choose. We can become good like God and choose heaven, or we can be evil like the devil and choose hell.

But in the beginning we are all Good, and God loves us all, but we can become evil. And while God does not hate us he hates the evil we do. And if we do not repent and change we also will be separated from God. God gave us free will and will not take that away from us, no one can.

The bottom line is rather we say we Love God or not does not matter. Its how we live and what we do to show God our love. So the devil wanted to be evil. So by making his choice he could not turn back. Just like us when we die. Even though God loves us, if we do evil we also will be separated from God. But he still loves us, but like I said before we choose to not love him.

The problem with the devil was he was also created out of goodness and made to do goodness but rejected it. So by becomming bad he was thrown out of the Garden of Eden and will never return. Because he will never repent. Just like God makes everything in this world for the good, man can make it bad and evil. And now God rejects the devil and anyone who wants anything to do with him.

 

[jkiernan56]

And now **God rejects the devil **and anyone who wants anything to do with him.

Please tell me what is there about the Devil that God still loves? What is “loveable” about the Devil? Just saying God loves the Devil doesn’t say anything. If God still loves the Devil, how does God still love the Devil? You say “God rejects the devil”. Isn’t that another way of saying “hates”?

In my current understanding, God “loves” the Devil in one way and “hates” the Devil in another. God “loves” the Devil ontologically by giving the Devil existence. But other than that there is nothing else “loveable” about the Devil. In that sense He “hates” the Devil - or as you said so well “rejects”. There is nothing “loveable” about the Devil other than his existence.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

I know I am going to catch hell for this, but here goes - LOL.

Your statement about God’s infinite love is both true and false depending on the context.
God’s love is infinite between the three Persons of the Trinity. I do not believe God’s love for mankind is infinite. Why? Because we are finite.

God the Father’s love for His eternal Son is infinite.
The Son’s love for the Father is infinite.
The love of the Father for the Son and the Son for the Father is infinite - WHO is the Holy Spirit.
In the Holy Trinity, God’s love is infinite. I totally agree.

[SIGN]Where I disagree is saying God’s love for man is infinite[/SIGN]. I can already loudly hear your objections. But before you write me off, please let me explain what I mean by this.

God does not love us infinitely because we are not infinite. We are finite. The love of Christ on the cross was an infinite act of love - but for whom? His Father. Christ saying YES to His Father and surrendering Himself to the Father to be crucified on a cross for our sins was an infinite act of love BY THE SON FOR THE FATHER… It was infinite because it was done by the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity who is infinite. It is efficacious for the sins of the world because it was an INFINITE ACT OF LOVE by the Son FOR THE FATHER. Only in that context is the cross of Christ an act of infinite love.

It could only be an infinite act of love for us IF WE WERE INFINITE. Does God love each of us infinitely? Does God does love everyone exactly same? I believe the answer is a clear - NO!!! He loves each of us as much of us there is to love. Some people in Heaven are loved MORE by God. The greater the goodness in each person, the more is in them for God to love.

The more they are loved, the more God’s life shines in and through their soul. Mary will shine the brightest in Heaven. She is the one who is most loved by God. If you think of your soul as a cup that is able to hold water, some souls are able to hold more water than others in heaven. Some have bigger containers. All will be full in heaven, but some in heaven will contain more of God’s love than others.

God does not love us infinitely, but only the amount to which He sees the image of His Son in each of us. His act of love on the cross was infinite - but only infinite by the Son (who is infinite) for the Father (who is infinite).

I can already hear the wolves howling … .LOL

I do disagree with you and so does eph. 3:17-19 Christ’s love surpasses knowledge.

When we are born we all have Grace from God. Because of his death on the Cross we were freed from Sin. Now we can keep free or sin. Its by the grace of God that we have the free will to do what we please not what pleases God.

If God did not love us we would not give us the grace to choose. We would have no reason for being. IT would all be done for us. But God loved the devil the same as us. The devil also was given Grace from God. But he choose to throw it away.

In Matt 5 IT tells you God gives his blessing to good and evil people. So it shows you he also loves evil people and gives them also the chance to change. If he didn’t love evil people why did he give them his Blessing?

 

[rinnie]

Please tell me what is there about the Devil that God still loves? What is “loveable” about the Devil? Just saying God loves the Devil doesn’t say anything. If God still loves the Devil, how does God still love the Devil? You say “God rejects the devil”. Isn’t that another way of saying “hates”?

In my current understanding, God “loves” the Devil in one way and “hates” the Devil in another. God “loves” the Devil ontologically by giving the Devil existence. But other than that there is nothing else “loveable” about the Devil. In that sense He “hates” the Devil - or as you said so well “rejects”. There is nothing “loveable” about the Devil other than his existence.

But here is the point does he hate the devil or does he hate the devils works?

Just like when a child is born. God loves that child, that child is inocent. It is that Childs works that send him to heaven or hell do you not agree?

God’s love for that Child is always the same unchanging. BUt the Childs love for God is what counts. If it was just Gods love that gets us into heaven would we not all get in? Do you see what I mean?

 

[rinnie]

Think what you are saying JK. Either God loves us or he does not? If its his love for us that gains us eternal life you are going back to OSAS way of thinking. And I know you reject that. God’s love either grows in us through grace or we toss it and reject it. But even evil people get a shot to change. And Gods grace can do that if we let it.

 

[jkiernan56]

But here is the point does he hate the devil or does he hate the devils works?

Just like when a child is born. God loves that child, that child is inocent. It is that Childs works that send him to heaven or hell do you not agree?

God’s love for that Child is always the same unchanging. BUt the Childs love for God is what counts. If it was just Gods love that gets us into heaven would we not all get in? Do you see what I mean?

You are avoiding answering the question. Please try to be specific. What is still “loveable” about the Devil? Please don’t use generalities.

Hint - when God “loves” us, what is it SPECIFICALLY about us that God “loves” or finds “loveable” about us?

 

[rinnie]

You are avoiding answering the question. Please try to be specific. What is still “loveable” about the Devil? Please don’t use generalities.

Hint - when God “loves” us, what is it SPECIFICALLY about us that God “loves” or finds “loveable” about us?

Okay let me try this. Remember in the beginning God made the devil right? And he was the best angel. He was Gods best one. Now God loved him. But then he rejected God.

God loves nothing about what the devil became.

But what God loves about the devil is who he was, a image God created, who could have been good, and wonderful.

Let me switch your thinking for a minute. Do you think that God hates you when you sin? Do you think he only loves you when you do good. When we sin do we turn our back on God or does he turn our back on us? Just hang with me here for a minute.

 

[rinnie]

Let me play my trump card before we even start the game/

God cannot hate the devil because to hate anyone is a sin. And God is perfect and God cannot sin.

God tells us to love our enemys. But does God tell us to sin, No he does not. He tells us to stay away from evil and evil people. But does he tell us to hate our enemy?

 

[rinnie]

Let me go a step further.

In our baptism are we told to hate the devil?

Or do we promise to reject satan and all his empty promises. Where does the church tell us to hate satan. Now I can show you a bible full of telling us to hate his works and empty promises. And we are also told to stay away from him. We are never told to hate him we are told to reject him are we not?