Does God Micromanage

[lovesMary]

I think people on this thread are defining the word “micromanage” differently from one another.

I agree, in the course of human events, free will plays a huge role. We not only exeersise our own free will, but we are negatively or positively affected by how others exersise theirs. We are also affected by natural events such as weather, earthquakes, etc, that are things that happen because of the way the world is set up.

I’m reminded of the story of people who prayed that a tornado would not hit their town. The tornado diverted its path and the people rejoiced, proclaiming that God answered their prayers. Meanwhile, the tornado totally devastated another town, killing many people.

Did God divert the tornado in answer to their prayers, allowing it to kill people in another town? I don’t think you can conclude that cause and effect at all. I think it’s human egotism to believe that God personally intervened on your behalf, as the expense on another family’s lives and homes.

Yet, as someone mentioned, God is aware of everything, even when a sparrow falls. God created the whole world, even though humanity is fallen and the world is now tainted with sin. God does not, however, protect us from the effects of living in this fallen world. Good people who pray still meet with worldly disasters. The rain falls on the good and the wicked.

 

[CradleCath]

No, God does not micromanage our lives. That’s what free will is all about. However, there are a number of people who post on this forum who seem to think that the church ought to micromanage our lives on God’s behalf.

I believe that what I call micromanaging & free will can co-exist. The fact that God is in the details of our lives, when we permit & ask Him to be, doesn’t negate free will.

Free will allows us to turn to Him (or to not turn to Him) for help & answers & grace. When we do turn to Him, I think He’s there, waiting & ready to do what is best for us.

I can’t tell you how many times, I’ve prayed, “Just put the right words in my mouth, Dear Lord”…when my children come to me with some problem, seeking advice. It seems to have worked!!
Or (& this actually was the case 3 yrs. ago)…“I have no clue whether buying this property will take us where You want us to be, Father. Please show us the way”. Small daily decisions, I believe that He cares about them & will guide us, IF ASKED!

As for the Church & micromanaging?..the Church helps to intrepret God’s Word, it helps us to know the difference between right & wrong & the “WHY” of these issues of morality. For instance, I remember when Pope Paul issued Humana Vitae. I was against the encyclical, until I learned more about the story of Onan & the fears that our Holy Father had about the results that the use of wholesale artificial contraception would bring about. I learned the reasons & the arguments against same through the holy, Catholic Church. As, 40 yrs. later, I view what ABC has brought about, I know the Pope was right.

Again, it’s our choice whether to follow the teachings or not.

 

[Telemachus]

Hey, interesting topic. This is something I’ve been wondering about for a while now.

The problem I have with understanding the explicit role that God takes in the daily workings of the world is the following: God has a plan and his Will is correctly guiding the world no matter what. If this is the case, why is it appropriate for me to pray for an exception to God’s own plan? If it is right that something happen, will it not simply happen because of God’s plan? What is the idea of the prayer? Don’t get me wrong: I pray for interventions just like anyone else because I am told by Church teaching to trust in that. Yet, I still have a lot of difficulties with working out the understanding of all this.

If it is just and right that something happens, it will happen because it was part of God’s eternal plan. What role does my prayer play in this? Why should I be “lobbying” (for lack of a better word) for something that may not be a part of His plan? What am I not understanding here?

The only way I can get around this is to clarify what it means for God to have “a plan.” If we visualize the idea of “God’s plan” as an unbroken line, then yes, I don’t think there is any point in praying for things except for God to frustrate us when he said quite simply “ask, and you shall receive.” If we relate this plan not to a line, but rather a tree, we can say that “Yes, there is a tree, and it is growing in that direction, but the final form of that tree is dependent upon the individual actions / prayers of every single human being that has existed / is existing / will exist.” That said, our actions are our own for better or for worse, but our prayers are desires for branches that we would really like to see appear in the Grand Scheme. It is up to God to decide whether these branches are legit or not; if not, they are not “granted,” if so, then they are “granted,” in whatever form.

This idea really appeals to me, because it is common within Catholic thought to assign the role of “creative” to human endeavours. In our thoughts, actions, and prayers, we are taking part in the Creation. Our thoughts are relatively unpowerful, our actions are direct and human, and our prayers are Godly, indirect, and mysterious.

The only thing I don’t like about this idea of mine is that it still doesn’t account for the role Time plays in everything. The prayer of an individual human being is a temporal thing (right?). As God is not bounded by Time, could it be that a future prayer may be affecting us now? Are the prayers of past humans still coming to fruition in the future? Freaky stuff!

God strikes me as a very nuanced fellow.

 

[lovesMary]

Telemachus,
Your post illustrates the philosophical contradiction between free will and predestination.Also, you point out that we live within time. Does God’s perfect will exist within the limitation of time? Perhaps a better theologian or philosopher can speak.

 

[EasterJoy]

Telemachus,
Your post illustrates the philosophical contradiction between free will and predestination.Also, you point out that we live within time. Does God’s perfect will exist within the limitation of time? Perhaps a better theologian or philosopher can speak.

The best answer I have heard to this problem is this: unlike us, God is eternal. While the past is lost to us and the future does not exist, it is different with God. To God, all times are fully present, fully known, and fully accessible.

As CS Lewis pointed out, this is how free will and so-called pre-destination are compatible, for to see someone do something is not the same as to have made them do it. That God fully knows your every move from now until the end of time does not mean that God forced you to do anything. God just sees what you do not see.

This is why CS Lewis thought we should attend as much as possible to the present, for it is to us the closest contact we have to eternity, that place where all life exists.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

The best answer I have heard to this problem is this: unlike us, God is eternal. While the past is lost to us and the future does not exist, it is different with God. To God, all times are fully present, fully known, and fully accessible.

That God fully knows your every move from now until the end of time does not mean that God forced you to do anything. God just sees what you do not see.
.

Excellent response. This is why theologians explain the existence of God as living in the eternal NOW. Thus his name,** I AM. **
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Plain_Catholic]

Allow me to add something that occurs to me: God gave us Free Will. Quite simply, that means God becomes involved only upon our own invitation to Him be it a simple prayer or a solemn vow of commitment.

That to me, is the antithesis of micromanagement.

 

[LilyM]

Allow me to add something that occurs to me: God gave us Free Will. Quite simply, that means God becomes involved only upon our own invitation to Him be it a simple prayer or a solemn vow of commitment.

That to me, is the antithesis of micromanagement.

Boy do you got it wrong. God gives us life without us asking Him for it - He keeps our lungs breathing and our hearts beating without us asking Him to do so.

He usually doesn’t stop supporting our lives or giving us other good things when we withdraw of committment - even when people tell Him in so many words that they no longer wish to live, or attempt to kill themslves.

 

[Telemachus]

Thanks to everybody for the responses. Yeah, harmonizing Predestination with Free Will is one of the things I have trouble with. I’ll grapple with that until I’m dead, I’m sure, but until then, the explanations given are quite good: we act, God knows.

So what about prayer then? Was my tree analogy a good one or not (previous post)? How does one think about “God’s Plan” and the role that prayer plays in it?

As a review, linear answer: if it’s right that something be done, then it will happen with or without our prayers. Non-linear answer: the general “plan” is underway, just as the vine grows; we determine the final shape of the vine through our thoughts and actions, and we appeal to God to shape the vine in ways we cannot.

 

[holdencaulfield]

It does seem vaguely heretical. Of course God is in control of what happens in the world. He could intercede to change things if He wanted, however He doesn’t always.

 

[Plain_Catholic]

Boy do you got it wrong. God gives us life without us asking Him for it - He keeps our lungs breathing and our hearts beating without us asking Him to do so.

He usually doesn’t stop supporting our lives or giving us other good things when we withdraw of committment - even when people tell Him in so many words that they no longer wish to live, or attempt to kill themslves.

For Lily: Do be careful as you are also saying that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is wrong. Here tis an excerpt from the Vatican’s online CCC.

Article 3 vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P5M.HTM

MAN’S FREEDOM

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27

26 GS 17; ⇒ Sir 15:14.

27 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 4, 4, 3: PG 7/1, 983.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P5N.HTM
I. Freedom and Responsibility

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. the choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."28

1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. Progress in virtue, knowledge of the good, and ascesis enhance the mastery of the will over its acts.

1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.

1736 Every act directly willed is imputable to its author:

Thus the Lord asked Eve after the sin in the garden: "What is this that you have done?"29 He asked Cain the same question.30 The prophet Nathan questioned David in the same way after he committed adultery with the wife of Uriah and had him murdered.31
An action can be indirectly voluntary when it results from negligence regarding something one should have known or done: for example, an accident arising from ignorance of traffic laws.

1737 An effect can be tolerated without being willed by its agent; for instance, a mother’s exhaustion from tending her sick child. A bad effect is not imputable if it was not willed either as an end or as a means of an action, e.g., a death a person incurs in aiding someone in danger. For a bad effect to be imputable it must be foreseeable and the agent must have the possibility of avoiding it, as in the case of manslaughter caused by a drunken driver.

1738 Freedom is exercised in relationships between human beings. Every human person, created in the image of God, has the natural right to be recognized as a free and responsible being. All owe to each other this duty of respect. the right to the exercise of freedom, especially in moral and religious matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of the human person. This right must be recognized and protected by civil authority within the limits of the common good and public order.32

28 Cf. ⇒ Rom 6:17.

29 ⇒ Gen 3:13.

30 Cf. ⇒ Gen 4:10.

31 Cf. ⇒ 2 Sam 12:7-15.

32 Cf. DH 2 # 7.

 

[Plain_Catholic]

For Telemachus: Your queries are quite insightful. May I suggest that you search the Catechism of the Catholic Church for these answers? Tis there, easy to read for all. If there is an obscurity that presents a difficulty, your local Canon Lawyer can help with it. I daresay that unless we have a Catechism scholar and Scripture scholar present in this thread, you are not likely to get a truly informed and authoritative answer to your queries; I believe your queries are of such as to merit a truly authoritative and definitive answer from someone who has been licensed by the Vatican to teach on the topic.

Thanks to everybody for the responses. Yeah, harmonizing Predestination with Free Will is one of the things I have trouble with. I’ll grapple with that until I’m dead, I’m sure, but until then, the explanations given are quite good: we act, God knows.

So what about prayer then? Was my tree analogy a good one or not (previous post)? How does one think about “God’s Plan” and the role that prayer plays in it?

As a review, linear answer: if it’s right that something be done, then it will happen with or without our prayers. Non-linear answer: the general “plan” is underway, just as the vine grows; we determine the final shape of the vine through our thoughts and actions, and we appeal to God to shape the vine in ways we cannot.

 

[Telemachus]

For Telemachus: Your queries are quite insightful. May I suggest that you search the Catechism of the Catholic Church for these answers? Tis there, easy to read for all. If there is an obscurity that presents a difficulty, your local Canon Lawyer can help with it. I daresay that unless we have a Catechism scholar and Scripture scholar present in this thread, you are not likely to get a truly informed and authoritative answer to your queries; I believe your queries are of such as to merit a truly authoritative and definitive answer from someone who has been licensed by the Vatican to teach on the topic.

Well, I’m on page 236 right now. I’m gradually taking it all in during my night readings. I’m just interested in the idea of prayer and why it is necessary. Maybe I’ll jump ahead!

For holdencaulfield: What have I said that is heretical in the least?

 

[EasterJoy]

I’m just interested in the idea of prayer and why it is necessary.

Intimate relationships require communication. You can’t do without prayer any more than a married couple could say on the first day “I love you, now you do these tasks, I’ll do those, and we’ll live happily ever after” and never communicate again. It is not the way we are made.

 

[Telemachus]

Intimate relationships require communication. You can’t do without prayer any more than a married couple could say on the first day “I love you, now you do these tasks, I’ll do those, and we’ll live happily ever after” and never communicate again. It is not the way we are made.

Then prayer is a way of communicating with God. I completely agree with and understand what you’re saying, and I like the way you phrase things.

What is the purpose of asking for things from God, of making appeals to Him? This puzzles me especially because of the idea of “God’s Plan,” which is what I wrote about above (I think this is where holdencaulfield thought I was being heretical). Combining the idea of “a plan” and appeals to God for interventions implies to me that either of two things is true (I repeat my previous statements):

• the Plan changes, or
• the Plan is fixed in terms of beginning and end (Alpha and Omega ), but the fleshing out of the Plan (the development) comes about through intra-material interactions (Humans and Nature) and extra-material interations (between God and His Creation, e.g. Humans).

The first alternative can, I think, be immediately thrown away. For God to change His Plan could also be construed as God changing his Mind, which would imply God Himself changes, which is definitely heretical. But the second alternative seems plausible, simply because it encompasses what the Church already believes (and correct me if I’m wrong): God created Man with the full intention of bringing him back to Him eventually, but only through the unfolding of a Plan in the “fullness of time” (love that phrase).

Thoughts?

 

[CradleCath]

Allow me to add something that occurs to me: God gave us Free Will. Quite simply, that means God becomes involved only upon our own invitation to Him be it a simple prayer or a solemn vow of commitment.

That to me, is the antithesis of micromanagement.

“Micromanagement” was the word used by some very liberal Catholics in reference to my own “God is present in the details” type of philosophy. It’s probably not the word to use, as I know it has a negative connotation.

Perhaps I need to provide an example. About 2 months ago, my Granddaughter…6 yrs. old was life-flighted to a prominent children’s hospital with a rare & horrible condition called Scalded
Skin Syndrome. She was placed in the burn unit, given morphine & her condition was “iffy” for a couple of days. She’s healing now & will be fine (could be some scarring), but my first reaction was to hit my knees…even before I grabbed my purse & my husband & I began the 2 hour drive to the hospital. (According to the people who coined the word ‘micromangement’ God’s course was set & prayers were pretty much meaningless).

Mine were those panicky prayers, you know the kind:
“Please, PLEASE Lord…don’t let anything happen to Caroline. Be with her & hold her hand as she is in great pain. Please be in that hospital room with my son & daughter-in-law. Give them strength & courage & the doctors, Father…give them wisdom”. & it went on & on until I ended it, as always, with “Not my will, but Thine be done & if our two wills differ, give us Your strength & Your peace.”

I DO believe that God listened & I think He cared about us all & hated that we were hurting & consumed with fear. I do believe that he was involved in my granddaughters healing…not with an obvious miracle, but by giving the doctors in a small town in Kansas the immediate knowledge that what they were seeing was beyond their capabilites & to send my Granddaughter to somplace that could help her. (They had her in the airplane within an hour of her admittance). He answered by enabling the doctors at the children’s hospital to know the danger & the pain. He answered my prayers by giving us nurses who were constantly vigilant concerning the complications…meningitis & encephalitis.

Would the outcome have been the same had I (& the whole family of aunts, uncles & children…the small town where she went to school…her parish)…not prayed? Perhaps…myself, I don’t intend to ever test that.

My whole family grew so in their relationships with God partly because of this horrible incident & the prayers they sent on behalf of Caroline. What about her sisters & cousins…from 3 yrs. of age to 14…they all prayed, sent homemade cards & talked to her by phone when she became better. I know that I am much more aware of & grateful for the gifts He has given me.

TO GOD BE THE GLORY!!

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Perhaps the following illustration will help at least some of you understand the difference in God knowing everything and yet not causing everything. This can also help understand the fallacy of predestination.
Yes, God knows everything because to him all eternity is Now. for him there is no past or future, only the eternal now. We can understand this a bit with the following example given by one of my dogma professors back in the 1960’s .
You are on a high cliff looking down at a river that forks. One branch goes to the right, the other to the left. To the right is a smooth flow taking people to a pleasant valley. To the left, with steep rock cliffs holding the river in, the current speeds up, has no way of exit other than a water fall which falls for thousands of feet onto sharp rocks at the bottom. You see two rafts going down the river, one takes the fork to the right and one takes the one to the left. You know without a doubt what will happen to each. One will be safe, the others will die. You knew this. It is certain. DID YOU CAUSE THEIR DEATHS. obviously not. This also gives an understanding of free will, where we are effected by out choices.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Telemachus]

"CradleCath:

My whole family grew so in their relationships with God partly because of this horrible incident & the prayers they sent on behalf of Caroline. What about her sisters & cousins…from 3 yrs. of age to 14…they all prayed, sent homemade cards & talked to her by phone when she became better. I know that I am much more aware of & grateful for the gifts He has given me.

Now you’re talkin’, CradleCath! My priest has told me, and I’ve read in the Cathecism, that God doesn’t allow bad things to happen unless there will be a larger Good obtained because of the Bad. I think your story illustrates this perfectly. I’m sure Caroline will be alright, and your family was brought closer together because of the ordeal.

You are on a high cliff looking down at a river that forks. One branch goes to the right, the other to the left. To the right is a smooth flow taking people to a pleasant valley. To the left, with steep rock cliffs holding the river in, the current speeds up, has no way of exit other than a water fall which falls for thousands of feet onto sharp rocks at the bottom. You see two rafts going down the river, one takes the fork to the right and one takes the one to the left. You know without a doubt what will happen to each. One will be safe, the others will die. You knew this. It is certain. DID YOU CAUSE THEIR DEATHS. obviously not. This also gives an understanding of free will, where we are effected by out choices.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

I don’t want to quibble too much, especially because this species of explanation is the one that actually gels with me more than any other. The observer in your example could see plainly that the fate of the rafts were sealed upon choosing their respective paths. Yet the observer did not know which of the two paths the rafts would respectively take. God would have seen all, so the analogy is not completely correct.

The free-will / predestination issue is not really what I’m talking about though. However, I will use the rafting example given to rephrase my questions about what I am interested in: prayer. Let’s take our “observer” again, and let him see the rafts coming down the river. He knows the consequences of either fork, so he prays that God leads all rafters in the correct direction. God considers this, agrees, and intervenes to bias the rafters so that they take the correct path. Yet, through free-will, either of the rafts could still deliberately choose to go down the wrong fork despite their bias.

This is the only way I can understand interventions from God in a world of multiple possibilities. He helps if we ask, but He doesn’t help so much as to elliminate all other possibilities. If all other possibilities were completely removed, then free-will is restricted to the point of not really being free. Is this wrong? Honestly, I wish God would take away some of my free-will at times so as to make me not question things so much, but He must have a reason for letting me do this despite how personally painful it is at times.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Now you’re talkin’, CradleCath! My priest has told me, and I’ve read in the Cathecism, that God doesn’t allow bad things to happen unless there will be a larger Good obtained because of the Bad. I think your story illustrates this perfectly. I’m sure Caroline will be alright, and your family was brought closer together because of the ordeal.

I don’t want to quibble too much, especially because this species of explanation is the one that actually gels with me more than any other. The observer in your example could see plainly that the fate of the rafts were sealed upon choosing their respective paths. Yet the observer did not know which of the two paths the rafts would respectively take. God would have seen all, so the analogy is not completely correct.

The free-will / predestination issue is not really what I’m talking about though. However, I will use the rafting example given to rephrase my questions about what I am interested in: prayer. Let’s take our “observer” again, and let him see the rafts coming down the river. He knows the consequences of either fork, so he prays that God leads all rafters in the correct direction. God considers this, agrees, and intervenes to bias the rafters so that they take the correct path. Yet, through free-will, either of the rafts could still deliberately choose to go down the wrong fork despite their bias.

This is the only way I can understand interventions from God in a world of multiple possibilities. He helps if we ask, but He doesn’t help so much as to elliminate all other possibilities. If all other possibilities were completely removed, then free-will is restricted to the point of not really being free. Is this wrong? Honestly, I wish God would take away some of my free-will at times so as to make me not question things so much, but He must have a reason for letting me do this despite how personally painful it is at times.

You miss the point altogether. We are not talking about intervention in this example, but causality. The question is did God Cause one to go over the cliff… The answer is no.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B