Does God only forgive the repentant?

[grannymh]

Shoot. Am I evading again? My answer: It is a very complex issue. I tend to lean away from the idea of the Church condemning anyone. I do not condemn anyone, and if I was Pope, I still wouldn’t, at least not on purpose.

Originally Posted by OneSheep in post 17
From OneSheep, post 17. Shoot. Am I evading again? My answer: It is a very complex issue. I tend to lean away from the idea of the Church condemning anyone. I do not condemn anyone, and if I was Pope, I still wouldn’t, at least not on purpose.

Speaking of tendencies…
In general, this cranky granny tends to lean away from misrepresentations of Catholicism.

 

[J_Peterson]

God as I know Him, the prodigal son’s father, waits with open arms. The forgiveness-from-the-heart has already happened. God allows us to choose rejection, though.

Even more important to me is the fact that the father ran towards the prodigal son, he didn’t simply wait until he got to the house and expressed his repentance. To me this says that God will meet us halfway. Of course it’s up to us to accept Him.

This is an interesting conversation, something I’ve been thinking about recently.

 

[OneSheep]

Even more important to me is the fact that the father ran towards the prodigal son, he didn’t simply wait until he got to the house and expressed his repentance. To me this says that God will meet us halfway. Of course it’s up to us to accept Him.

This is an interesting conversation, something I’ve been thinking about recently.

Did you read the quote from Cardinal Ratzinger? He shows the Father not waiting at all.

Joseph Ratzinger’s Introduction to Christianity criticizes the old theory about a vengeful God needing reparation: “Almost all religions centre round the problem of expiation; they arise out of man’s knowledge of his guilt before God and signify the attempt to remove this feeling of guilt, to surmount the guilt through conciliatory actions offered up to God”. He states that “God does not wait until the guilty come to be reconciled; he goes to meet them and reconciles them”, because “His righteousness is grace”, so the crucifixion “does not stand there as the work of expiation which mankind offers to the wrathful God, but as the expression of that foolish love of God’s which gives itself away to the point of humiliation in order thus to save man”.

 

[OneSheep]

No. You’re just not reading other peoples’ posts, which is why I stated am withdrawing from the thread. I explained very succinctly in this post and you clearly did not read it, especially the middle paragraph, showing that Jesus (and I) was not referring to the scripture you posted from Matthew, but the all important directive in John’s gospel. Big difference, if you care to read it. It is Church teaching.

Oh yes, the “sins you retain” verse.

Do you retain anyone’s sins Sirach?

 

[Sirach2]

Oh yes, the “sins you retain” verse.

Do you retain anyone’s sins Sirach?

I was not invested with that sacred ministry that is bestowed in ordination. The priest is commissioned to bind or loose in the sacrament of penance. Have you read the Church’s teaching - straight from the Catechism?

Your question is inappropriate, and another deflection tactic.

 

[Sirach2]

Did you read the quote from Cardinal Ratzinger? He shows the Father not waiting at all.

Joseph Ratzinger’s Introduction to Christianity criticizes the old theory about a vengeful God needing reparation: “Almost all religions centre round the problem of expiation; they arise out of man’s knowledge of his guilt before God and signify the attempt to remove this feeling of guilt, to surmount the guilt through conciliatory actions offered up to God”. He states that “God does not wait until the guilty come to be reconciled; he goes to meet them and reconciles them”, because “His righteousness is grace”, so the crucifixion “does not stand there as the work of expiation which mankind offers to the wrathful God, but as the expression of that foolish love of God’s which gives itself away to the point of humiliation in order thus to save man”.

Once again, you search for quotes to substantiate your erroneous beliefs.

First, it is absolutely critical to note that the mind of the Church or even of the Pope himself cannot be determined by looking at the writings of a future pope before he became pope.** A cardinal’s election as pope does not in any way validate his earlier remarks, none of which were protected in the least by the grace of his later office**. His opinion is simply his opinion, no different than yours in meditating on the meaning of that parable.

Second, you err with respect to the Father. He allowed the son to fully experience the consequences of his wrong action. Until that occurs, a person cannot fully repent. He did not search him out in his travels spending the inheritance. Only when the son was on his return home, did the Father reach out to meet him.

You again spin your view of the scriptures to make them fit your point of view. Private interpretation (sola scripture) is always subject to the teaching of the Church, which you have disregarded in the post I gave you about the sacrament of Penance.

 

[ffg]

Interesting thread.

In general, I would say that forgiveness is not only for the repentant. I am working on forgiving folks right now in my life who have no idea of the wrong. As we are called to forgive, forgive, forgive, surely it’s a calling that the most perfect Person (God) does well and often for us to emulate.

However, as everyone relates things differently, if we are talking about the process of getting to heaven. It would seem logical that all humans in heaven are repentant of their sins.

Regardless of God’s forgiveness capability, He cannot force love from His creation. Thus He cannot force a relationship with His creation.

Then in order to carry out the act of ultimate forgiveness and welcome someone home, creation must first repent, no?

So what we have are two different concepts, though too close for comfort. ‘in general’ and ‘a specific outcome’.

So to get to a ‘correct’ the question may need to be narrowed.

 

[grannymh]

Even more important to me is the fact that the father ran towards the prodigal son, he didn’t simply wait until he got to the house and expressed his repentance. To me this says that God will meet us halfway. Of course it’s up to us to accept Him.

This is an interesting conversation, something I’ve been thinking about recently.

Luke 15: 17. Recognition of the difference between the State of Sanctifying Grace and the State of Mortal sin. (Information source. CCC, Glossary, Mortal Sin, page 889; CCC, Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898; CCC, 1999-2000; 2 Corinthians 5: 16-18)

Luke 15:18. Recognition of his own State of Mortal Sin.

Luke 15: 19. Recognition that his freely committed Moral Sin has destroyed his union with God , turning him away from God, and consequently destroying the Divine life in him, that is, destroying the State of Sanctifying Grace.

Luke 15: 20a. Physically going to the Catholic Church.

Luke: 15: 20b. Priest going to the confessional place for the Catholic Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation. Because of the Catholic Sacrament of Holy Orders, the ordained Priest welcomes the lost “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” (Information source. CCC, 1420-1424; CCC, 1461)

Luke: 15: 21. Confession of Mortal Sin and recognition that he is no longer in the State of Sanctifying Grace. Sincere contrition, that is, repentance.

Luke 15: 22-23. God accepts true confession and repentance, that is, contrition. There is absolution, an essential element of the Sacrament of Penance in which the Priest, by the power entrusted to the Catholic Church by Christ, pardons the sin(s) of the penitent. (CCC, Glossary, Absolution, page 864; CCC, 1441-1445, CCC, 1449)

Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[JM3]

Denzinger (43rd edition)

621-624: Synod of Quiercy, May 853

624: Chap. 4. Just as there is not, nor has been, nor will be any man whose nature has not been assumed by Christ Jesus our Lord, so also there is not, nor has been, nor will be any man for whom He has not suffered; even if not all are redeemed by the mystery of His passion. That not all, however, are redeemed by the mystery of His passion concerns neither the greatness nor the fullness of the price, but, rather, the part of those who are unfaithful and those who do not believe with that faith “which works through love” [Gal 5:6]; for the cup of human salvation, which was forged by our infirmity and by divine strength, contains within itself what is beneficial for all; but if one does not drink from it, he is not healed.

Council of Trent

1520-1583: Session 6, January 13, 1547: Decree on Justification

Chapter 5, The necessity for adults to prepare themselves for justification and the origin of this justification

1525: The council, morover, declares that in adults the beginning of justification must be attributed to God’s prevenient grace through Jesus Christ [can. 3]. that is, to His call addressed to them without any previous merits of theirs. Thus, those who through their sins were turned away from God, awakened and assisted by His grace, are disposed to turn to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace [cann. 4 and 5]. In this way, God touches the heart of man with the illumination of the Holy Spirit, but man himself is not entirely inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he can reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move toward justice in God’s sight [can. 3]. Hence, when it is said in Sacred Scripture: “Return to me and I will return to you” [Zach 1:3], we are reminded of our freedom; but when we reply: “Restore us to yourself, O Lord, that we may be retored” [Lam 5:21], we acknowledge that God’s grace precedes us.

Second Vatican Council: Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium

4140: …Nor does divine providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life…

It is my uneducated opinion that God has forgiven all, through the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ. This, however, is not a one way street. Each must accept this forgiveness. That some will not, does not mean that they are not forgiven. Only that they refuse to accept the forgiveness offered.

 

[Sirach2]

Thus, those who through their sins were turned away from God, awakened and assisted by His grace, are disposed to turn to their own justification by **freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace. **

It is my uneducated opinion that God has forgiven all, through the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ. This, however, is not a one way street. Each must accept this forgiveness. That some will not, does not mean that they are not forgiven. Only that they refuse to accept the forgiveness offered.

It sounds like Protestant theology, once saved, always saved … all we have to do is j just accept it. I hope you understand Trent’s teaching in the light of repentance? We must read ALL of Trent’s teachings. Here is a portion from the Catechism of Trent.
Nor is the exercise of this power restricted to particular sins. No crime, however heinous, can be committed or even conceived which the Church has not power to forgive, just as there is no sinner, however abandoned, however depraved, who should not confidently hope for pardon, **provided he sincerely repent of his past transgressions. **

But if we look to its ministers, or to the manner in which it is to be exercised, the extent of this divine power will not appear so great; for our Lord gave not the power of so sacred a ministry to all, but to Bishops and priests only. The same must be said regarding the manner in which this power is to be exercised; for sins can be forgiven only through the Sacraments, when duly administered. The Church has received no power otherwise to remit sin. Hence it follows that in the forgiveness of sins both priests and Sacraments are, so to speak, the instruments which Christ our Lord, the author and giver of salvation, makes use of, to accomplish in us the pardon of sin and the grace of justification.

But here the faithful are to be admonished to guard against the danger of becoming more prone to sin, or slow to repentance, from a presumption that they can have recourse to this power of forgiving sins which is so complete and, as we saw, unrestricted as to time. For, as such a propensity to sin would manifestly convict them of acting injuriously and contumaciously to this divine power, and would therefore render them unworthy of the divine mercy; so this slowness to repentance gives great reason to fear that, overtaken by death, they may in vain confess their belief in the remission of sins, which by their tardiness and procrastination they deservedly forfeited.
I think the word presumption is what separates OneSheep’s beliefs that God simply forgives everybody, whether or not they repent. Maybe I’m misunderstanding him, but certainly appears to be presumption, a sin against the First Commandment.

 

[grannymh]

The Parable of the Prodigal Son

Luke 15: 17. Recognition of the difference between the State of Sanctifying Grace and the State of Mortal sin. (Information source. CCC, Glossary, Mortal Sin, page 889; CCC, Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898; CCC, 1999-2000; 2 Corinthians 5: 16-18)

Luke 15:18. Recognition of his own State of Mortal Sin.

Luke 15: 19. Recognition that his freely committed Moral Sin has destroyed his union with God , turning him away from God, and consequently destroying the Divine life in him, that is, destroying the State of Sanctifying Grace.

Luke 15: 20a. Physically going to the Catholic Church.

Luke: 15: 20b. Priest going to the confessional place for the Catholic Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation. Because of the Catholic Sacrament of Holy Orders, the ordained Priest welcomes the lost “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” (Information source. CCC, 1420-1424; CCC, 1461)

Luke: 15: 21. Confession of Mortal Sin and recognition that he is no longer in the State of Sanctifying Grace. Sincere contrition, that is, repentance.

Luke 15: 22-23. God accepts true confession and repentance, that is, contrition. There is absolution, an essential element of the Sacrament of Penance in which the Priest, by the power entrusted to the Catholic Church by Christ, pardons the sin(s) of the penitent. (CCC, Glossary, Absolution, page 864; CCC, 1441-1445, CCC, 1449)

*****Important information added to Luke 15: 22-23.

God’s forgiveness of Mortal Sin is uniquely expressed in the reinstatement of the State of Sanctifying Grace.

This is why God’s forgiveness is tons better than granny’s forgiveness.

Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[simpleas]

It sounds like Protestant theology, once saved, always saved … all we have to do is j just accept it. I hope you understand Trent’s teaching in the light of repentance? We must read ALL of Trent’s teachings. Here is a portion from the Catechism of Trent.
Nor is the exercise of this power restricted to particular sins. No crime, however heinous, can be committed or even conceived which the Church has not power to forgive, just as there is no sinner, however abandoned, however depraved, who should not confidently hope for pardon, **provided he sincerely repent of his past transgressions. **

But if we look to its ministers, or to the manner in which it is to be exercised, the extent of this divine power will not appear so great; for our Lord gave not the power of so sacred a ministry to all, but to Bishops and priests only. The same must be said regarding the manner in which this power is to be exercised; for sins can be forgiven only through the Sacraments, when duly administered. The Church has received no power otherwise to remit sin. Hence it follows that in the forgiveness of sins both priests and Sacraments are, so to speak, the instruments which Christ our Lord, the author and giver of salvation, makes use of, to accomplish in us the pardon of sin and the grace of justification.

But here the faithful are to be admonished to guard against the danger of becoming more prone to sin, or slow to repentance, from a presumption that they can have recourse to this power of forgiving sins which is so complete and, as we saw, unrestricted as to time. For, as such a propensity to sin would manifestly convict them of acting injuriously and contumaciously to this divine power, and would therefore render them unworthy of the divine mercy; so this slowness to repentance gives great reason to fear that, overtaken by death, they may in vain confess their belief in the remission of sins, which by their tardiness and procrastination they deservedly forfeited.
I think the word presumption is what separates OneSheep’s beliefs that God simply forgives everybody, whether or not they repent. Maybe I’m misunderstanding him, but certainly appears to be presumption, a sin against the First Commandment.

Aren’t we in a way “once saved, always saved” since we are baptised into Christ, whether we like it or not? People who leave the faith behind, but were baptised as a child, I think they are always in Christ even if they no longer attend the sacraments, because they once did.

 

[simpleas]

When we are baptised we are baptised into Christ, at first communion we receive the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ, at confirmation we receive the Holy spirit. We grow in love of God and neighbour. We have a personal relationship with Christ that we can share with others, but not really express that personal relationship as no one can ever have a deep down inside the soul experience of God and explain that to someone else.
After growing and still growing, we need to have a priest, one who acts in the person of Christ, tell us our sins are forgiven in the name of Christ, or maybe not as absolution can be with held in certain circumstances.

Do or can we grow in spiritual maturity, that is having the holy spirit dwelling inside of us, to be able to not worry that we need to seek confession with a priest, that we can speak to God ourselves, saying an act of contrition.

I ask because, if death came to call and I was aware of it, I wouldn’t want to think I could not by myself seek Gods grace if there were not a priest to give the last rites. My last moments I would want to feel free from fear, loving God and knowing he loved and forgive me without someone else to tell me this…

 

[JM3]

It sounds like Protestant theology,

If you think that the Council of Trent is protestant theology, then, maybe, it is your glasses that need cleaning, so to speak.

1525:…Thus, those who through their sins were turned away from God, awakened and assisted by His grace, are disposed to turn to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace [cann. 4 and 5]. In this way, God touches the heart of man with the illumination of the Holy Spirit, but man himself is not entirely inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he can reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move toward justice in God’s sight [can. 3]. Hence, when it is said in Sacred Scripture: “Return to me and I will return to you” [Zach 1:3], we are reminded of our freedom; but when we reply: “Restore us to yourself, O Lord, that we may be retored” [Lam 5:21], we acknowledge that God’s grace precedes us.

We cannot repent unless God has already forgiven us and gives us the grace to repent.

If the unrepentant are not forgiven, then what fault is it of theirs? How can you reject something not given?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

If you think that the Council of Trent is protestant theology, then, maybe, it is your glasses that need cleaning, so to speak.

We cannot repent unless God has already forgiven us and gives us the grace to repent.

If the unrepentant are not forgiven, then what fault is it of theirs? How can you reject something not given?

wow - great answer:thumbsup:

 

[JM3]

Aren’t we in a way “once saved, always saved” since we are baptised into Christ,

No. Just as a healthy cell can become cancerous and must be removed to save the body, so a member of the body of Christ can remove themselves by unrepentant mortal sin.

 

[Sirach2]

If you think that the Council of Trent is protestant theology, then, maybe, it is your glasses that need cleaning, so to speak.

We cannot repent unless God has already forgiven us and gives us the grace to repent.

If the unrepentant are not forgiven, then what fault is it of theirs? How can you reject something not given?

Why do folks like to put words into another’s mouth that they have never written? Maybe it makes you feel superior or something to put someone down by spinning their words. What I expressed is that your “uneducated opinion” sounds like Protestant theology, and I think you know my intent.

It is true that God always gives His actual graces to repent and be restored to His friendship through reception of the sacrament of Penance, which bestows** sanctifying** grace. Without that, as long as the soul remains entrenched in its sin, there is little chance of being admitted to heaven, unless there would take place a Perfect Contrition at one’s death, which is presumption to rely upon that grace.

I think you know that, too, but for some reason, you enjoy countering my posts in a light opposite my actual words. How about responding to the Council of Trent’s teaching on Penance that I offered to you? Too true to find something to argue about?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

If the unrepentant are not forgiven, then what fault is it of theirs? How can you reject something not given?

You know the more I read this, the more this sounds like a catch-22! If the unrepentent are forgiven what good is it to them? They don’t think they need forgiveness, so they will never feel bad about their sins. In fact, they won’t even think they had sinned!

Forgiveness is only good for the repentant. Only the contrite know how good forgiveness feels.

 

[JM3]

Why do folks like to put words into another’s mouth that they have never written? Maybe it makes you feel superior or something to put someone down by spinning their words. What I expressed is that your “uneducated opinion” sounds like Protestant theology, and I think you know my intent.

It is true that God always gives His actual graces to repent and be restored to His friendship through reception of the sacrament of Penance, which bestows** sanctifying** grace. Without that, as long as the soul remains entrenched in its sin, there is little chance of being admitted to heaven, unless there would take place a Perfect Contrition at one’s death, which is presumption to rely upon that grace.

I think you know that, too, but for some reason, you enjoy countering my posts in a light opposite my actual words. How about responding to the Council of Trent’s teaching on Penance that I offered to you? To true to argue?

I apologize for putting words into your mouth that you didn’t write. What I saw was a quote from the Council of Trent with a bolded section. I assumed that this is what you were referring to, since you made no mention of my opinion being protestant and only referring to it as ‘it’.

Nor is the exercise of this power restricted to particular sins. No crime, however heinous, can be committed or even conceived which the Church has not power to forgive, just as there is no sinner, however abandoned, however depraved, who should not confidently hope for pardon, provided he sincerely repent of his past transgressions.

 

[Sirach2]

I apologize for putting words into your mouth that you didn’t write. What I saw was a quote from the Council of Trent with a bolded section. I assumed that this is what you were referring to, since you made no mention of my opinion being protestant and only referring to it as ‘it’.

Here it is, JM3 … the blue section is your last words which I replied to, and added more information from the Council of Trent, since you had relied on only part of this Council’s teaching…

Sirach2:

JM3:

*Thus, those who through their sins were turned away from God, awakened and assisted by His grace, are disposed to turn to their own justification by **freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace. ***

It is my uneducated opinion that God has forgiven all, through the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ. This, however, is not a one way street. Each must accept this forgiveness. That some will not, does not mean that they are not forgiven. Only that they refuse to accept the forgiveness offered.
It your opinion] sounds like Protestant theology, once saved, always saved … all we have to do is j just accept it. I hope you understand Trent’s teaching in the light of repentance? We must read ALL of Trent’s teachings. Here is a portion from the Catechism of Trent.

Thank you for understanding. It is lent, and I sure don’t relish being at odds with anyone. In fact, I’m going to mass tonight and will pray for both of us, thanking God for a meeting of the mind between us.