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Chesster
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Works don’t flow from faith automatically. James 2:22 “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works” - works cooperate with and complete faith, they are not automatic.
Does God punish people with hell? And does faith make you do good works automatically?
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clem456
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There are no guarantees of salvation other than knowing Christ.
Ardent and eloquent expressions of faith are not enough.
Great works are not enough.
Salvation is not a quantity, it is a relationship with the living God. It can’t be measured or locked up in a box. Sinful human beings stumble and fall all the time. Peter is prime example.
Through the gift of faith we carry on through our imperfections, and do the works that Christ gives us the grace to do.
Ardent and eloquent expressions of faith are not enough.
Great works are not enough.
Salvation is not a quantity, it is a relationship with the living God. It can’t be measured or locked up in a box. Sinful human beings stumble and fall all the time. Peter is prime example.
Through the gift of faith we carry on through our imperfections, and do the works that Christ gives us the grace to do.
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souldiver
Guest
Some of you implies that people chose hell if they go there. But example, you lived as a bad person, you died, you have no interest of going to hell but you get there anyways, somebody is putting people in hell, most likely it’s under God I think.
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mikekle
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What kind of consequences should there be for someone who treats everyone he meets with kindness and respect, helps others whenever is asked, donates times, money. has no hatred for anyone? Just because they choose not to literally worship the creator…that is enough for an ETERNITY of suffering and pain (no matter in what sense it may be)?
Im not describing myself above, I do pray, and worship God, although NOT ONCE in my life, have I ever felt God, or received any kind of direction from my prayers…yet I continue to pray.
I was raised catholic and still am, I still attend mass at my parish, but there a few things I disagree on with the CC, as a whole, although I still consider myself a catholic.
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mikekle
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So, whose to say those people would actually suffer in hell? if they lived their earthly lives without God, then logically ‘hell’ would just be an extension of that…right? Why would torture, pain and suffering come into it?Stephen Fry is on record as saying that he wouldn’t want to go to heaven if offered the chance. He describes God as an evil maniacal monster who allows children to suffer. Other famous atheists (Hitchens and Dawkins for 2) have expressed their unwillingness to spend eternity with God as they imagine him to be. I imagine lots of other not famous atheists feel the same way. They not only lack a belief in God, they hold him in utter contempt (so in a way they actually believe in him?) My point is that some people do actually put themselves in hell because they have turned so far away from God they can’t even conceive of being with him for eternity. Hell is our final rejection of God, and yes we put ourselves there.
Also, the comment about God not wanting millions of little YES robots, they say he doesnt want this, but in a way, he does, difference is, he wants all us to make that choice, being there is a ‘punishment’ for NOT doing this, means anything less is the wrong choice. TRUE free will, there would be no right or wrong choices, as long as you did not infringe on anyone elses free will, anything would be neutral.
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ericc
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Well, God made this world. He told us in advance that in this world he created, there is a hell for Satan and his angels, evil spirits and evildoers where they will go and be punished for doing bad things. He also tell us that after physical death, judgement is immediate. There is no need to wish for a different type of world or tell him how he should made his world. He is the Creator, not us. So there is no need to wish for second chances after physical death, so don’t blow it. He gave us sufficient time to exercise our choices. There is no need for evil men to extend their reign of terror and destruction unnecessarily.
We are free to ignore and disobey what he taught us. There is no MUST. He didn’t force us to worship him. He could if he wish to, bu the didn’t. But there are consequences. The consequences are transparent. There are no hidden charges. So, it is your choice. Free does not mean no consequences. I don’t understand why you think “free” should not have any punishments. If you plan to murder your neighbor, and you source for a gun and killed him because you lust after his wife, why do you think your actions should not entail any punishment and yet you think you should have the unlimited freedom to punish your neighbor? What do you know about “true” free will? What is it you have in mind? Action without responsibility/consequences? You don’t want them to have true unencumbered freedom to kill/rape your women folks do you or rob you of your property? And if they do, you also wish that they are punished don’t you? And if they weren’t caught, you also wish that God is fair and will punish them in their after life? If so, then how would your concept of free will without punishment reconcile with your own sense of justice?
If one were to decide that God is not worthy of your worship or obedience, then it is naturally fair that you are not a member of his family. And it is natural that we stay with our own families, so-call under one roof. Guess what, those not under God’s roof has another place to go to. They have chosen membership elsewhere and that is their natural home/roof.
You see a piece of tempting piece of meat/pastry/anything on the table which you know or ought to know is a drug/bad/toxic. But you disregard all the warnings and ate it and got food poisoning and died or got seriously damaged. Whose fault is that? You see a road sign that says “One-Way Street” , you would not, if you are not insane, drive against that arrow, would you? That is what mortal sin is, an insane conscious deliberate act to go against God knowing full well there are grave consequences. Since we put ourselves in the correct compartment, it is true that where we end up is of our choosing. If you drive against that One Way Street and ended up in hospital (and causing other casualties as well), do you blame the authorities that the road you took “should” be a 2 way street and that you should be free to drive any direction you so wish without consequences?
Most intelligent persons do not do prohibited acts and most know there are consequences if they do that. They obey traffic lights, they obey commandments not to kill, cheat, steal, lie etc. Basically commandments that you don’t wish others to do to you as well.
So what exactly is the God that you know sound like? Are you an expert in that field?
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ericc
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It is Satan. He is going there and he is going to bring as many as he can with him. Sin destroys the soul. Be afraid of the one who can tempt you to sin. God can not tempt you to sin. It is not his nature. But he prepares a place for those who wants to.
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PulvisEtCinis
Guest
I would sum up my understanding of it in this way (whatever that is worth):
People go to Hell because they choose to make their ‘final end’ a creature thereby rejecting God. It is not as if they should wish to be punished after their death (since Hell is God’s punishment of the wicked), but this is their destination because of their rebellion against God (choosing to do what they know is evil rather than to serve God); so, in this sense they ‘choose Hell’ by their choosing evil over good and not because they want to be punished. One who dies in Mortal sin is in a state of enmity with God (the sinner’s will is perverted and is evil on account of him choosing to commit a gravely evil act) and through his action he has turned away from God as his final end; death seals this disposition in man (so such a one will forever hate God). Such a one is rightfully subject to God’s justice and the punishment deserved for his actions. As to how the soul actually is ‘transported’ there, whether God puts them there Himself, or His angels carry them there or the soul automatically goes to its proper destination by itself without further ado, I think matters very little; their state is one of fully justified punishment, so why is it important precisely how they get there?
The Catechism of the Catholic Church on Hell:
"*IV. HELL
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”
1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621
Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.622*"
The important thing, I think, it to not end up there.
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PulvisEtCinis
Guest
But, rejection of God is the worst sin that one can commit; all of the rest of it is insignificant in comparison.
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
Thank you for concisely stating the Liberal Doctrine of free will.
However, this doctrine is based on a lie. Why? Because it is impossible to fully exercise one’s free will without necessarily infringing on the free will of others.
Your other contention is that God wants little robots that jump when he snaps his fingers. That’s because this is not really free will (in your view.) God should just let us do whatever we want and there should be no punishment for wrong choices.
You are not really thinking this through. If you did, you would realize that wrong choices already come with built in punishments. This is the natural law. It applies to all animate creation. If a bird is careless about his surroundings boom he gets eaten by a hawk.
What you really want (in effect) by your wish to be able to do whatever you want without any consequences, is something Satan has been tempting man with ever since the apple in the Garden of Eden. IOW, you want to be like GOD and God is holding you back.
That view is something like how teenagers view their parents. It is just about as mature as well.
You apparently think being created gives you the right to be like God, and to be his enemy. OK, God permits that. That is free will. But the consequences are a warning. Just like the parents of the teen. Of course the immature teen just sees his freedom being stomped on. The fact that his/her parents do what they do out of love is irrelevant to the teen. The teen just wants whatever he/she wants.
That is why in the end, hell is a choice. Being God’s enemy is really being an enemy to ourselves.
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truetofaith
Guest
If hell is just an extension of those people living without God…how would that be punishment
They would be happy committing sin, with no consequences.Didn’t you think of that?
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seagal
Guest
Except for the final judgement when we all actually come into God’s presence. Then they will know how wrong they were. Some theologians think this is what hell is: experiencing God’s presence and then the torment of being shut out for eternity.If hell is just an extension of those people living without God…how would that be punishment
Didn’t you think of that?
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seagal
Guest
None of us can know for sure who will spend eternity in hell. The church acknowledges that it is possible that someone who is invincibly ignorant can still be saved I don’t think that could be said of someone who has heard about God and stubbornly refuses to believe.
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truetofaith
Guest
it appears that the torment of hell is real fire.
In Luke 16: 24 the rich man is asking Abraham to send Lazarus to “dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.”
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seagal
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That doesn’t contradict the other version of hell. But that’s a different topic.
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mikekle
Guest
That could very easily be a metaphor, the ‘water’ to cool his tongue, is actually Gods love/ Gods word/ grace/forgiveness, and the ‘fire’ is the pain of separation…like other verses are sometimes explained, metaphors were commonly used to explain all sorts of things, could be no different with this one.
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mikekle
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Since the bible is very complex, as in determining whether something is literal or not, hidden meanings, etc., is it possible God takes this into consideration, I mean, there are many people who are not that intelligent out there, they were made this way, they just are not as smart as others, they have no control over this.
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chimo
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Not exactly. God does not put anyone into Hell. At death God only continues what your state of being is. You have to be in a state of hell before death if you continue it into the next life. Like I said earlier God only continues what is there at death. This does not mean that all people who are in a state of hell before death will continue it into the next life. Since God is All-Merciful, He will grant to the soul who is in a state of Hell His Life Saving Grace before they die if this Grace will work on their souls. It is certain if God can save them why would He refuse this Grace if it will work on their souls. The only souls it seems to me that are condemned are those souls who will condemn God for His Grace. This means that even if God had given all the final Graces to save this soul, this soul will just reject outright. This type of soul is in a condition of hell that does not want to be saved or more correctly it is impossible to save even when God will send His Graces in the greatest abundance. No matter what God does, the soul does not improve. This is the hell which God warns about. It is the hell which the devil has. So in truth there is a hell that can be saved and there is a hell that cannot be saved. In the Diary of St. Maria Faustina there is these talks about the five conditions which a soul might be in. In one of those conditions we see a soul struggling. God however gives the soul Grace and there is no change. Again God gives Grace and there is no change. Finally God gives His final Grace which He commented if the soul rejects this Grace than God will have to leave the soul into its misery for eternity. This is the hell which God warns about. It is committed by your own life of sins which ultimately drags you into a potential hell that cannot be reached by God. It is not that God destroys both body and soul. It has already been destroyed without God. It is precisely God cannot redeem it anymore. That is what it means in the Matthew verses. Since you are in a permanent state of hell before you die God decides that it is not good to put these souls into heaven after they die because they will only be cursing and so on because who will want people in heaven cursing so He leaves them into a place where this hell just continues on.
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souldiver
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The way I understand your post is that, the damned, starts from state of hell and remains in the state of hell after death, right?
The following are hypothetical:
If it’s from normal earth to hell with literal fire, why not save the damned even if they’re being sent to hell? They don’t want to believe or repent but don’t to want go to hell and have eternal torment. So why blame the damned for going to hell? There’s a force that could be God that sends them to hell. Even if it’s all natural, God should able to stop it being all merciful, omnipotent and all.
We could think satan is the “him” bringing people to hell with him in the verse I have shown but it says fear “him”, and all people should only fear God and no one else, right? So it could be God.
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chimo
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It is not God or the devil which creates this hell in you but it is you that creates it. The devil for instance created his own hell. Sin is not agreeable to the soul and the soul reacts to sin in the same way you react to hurts but are unable to let it go. God had never intended for humans to discover this hell unless these humans ventured out against their natural order. Since the devil created his own hell by ignoring his own vocation so in humans this type of hell can exist if we persist to go against the natural order which God has intended for us to become. In truth God does not give us true freedom because we cannot go against the natural order which we were intended for. Our true freedom only gives us what God has intended for us if we choose what is right. Therefore the freedom which God gives to us must serve us if we choose what is right. So in effect God has given us certain parameters to follow. If we choose what is right we enter into those parameters without any change to our state of being. If we choose to go outside those parameters we have the potential to change our state of being into one that could lead to hell.
To fear God means to respect the freedom which He has given to you. God in fact took a risk in creating us. The risk though is really our risk because in this freedom which God has given to us there is this potential for heaven and there is this potential for hell. The fact is no one can live in an eternal heaven without God. It is impossible. God though has given to us incredible teachings even warnings if one can say to know how to avoid that hell. We were never created to exist without God. Since God created these parameters which He has placed into us even into Angels there must be sufficient knowledge for instance to an Angel to choose what is right and for man to choose as well. The problem with man though is not sufficient knowledge as it was in the case for the Angels but insufficient knowledge. God decided to send His Son Jesus to us in order for this knowledge to be sufficient. Therefore there is really no excuse now for humans if they reject their vocation.
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