Does God really work this way?

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Luke_K

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Mary apparently said at Fatima:
“Pray, pray very much, make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to hell because there is no one to offer prayers and sacrifices for them.”
I cannot believe this. I abhor the idea that God withholds graces necessary for someone’s conversion if other people aren’t praying or offering penances for them; as if God values using prayers and penances more than the bottom line of saving souls. As if God was looking down at a poor sinner, saying “Wow, I’d really like to help this sinner so much and bring him back to my loving heart and save him from eternal hell, but Joe Smith didn’t pray or sacrifice for him, so I cannot! To hell he goes!”

Am I expected to believe God works out our salvation this way?
 
I think you’re missing the point? I don’t mean that confrontationally. But anyone who goes to hell ultimately “chooses” to go there. Maybe not directly but we are all held accountable for our individual actions. We can’t blame God because someone goes to hell just because someone else didn’t think to pray for them. If any of us go to hell its because we walked into the flames ourselves. THAT’S what we need to pray for sinners for. Especially for those who its not too late for! God doesn’t set anyone up to fail so I just don’t see it as you do. But this is just my opinion so please take it how you will. Peace be with you.
 
Mary apparently said at Fatima:
I cannot believe this. I abhor the idea that God withholds graces necessary for someone’s conversion if other people aren’t praying or offering penances for them;?
Jesus’ prayer to the Father for us was in today’s reading. Your vocation is to show forth the image of Christ. Pray for people. Sacrifice for them. How that works - we call it a mystery - accept or not, is up to you. We do it because God said so. We’ll understand it when we pass.
 
Hi Luke, my name is Arturo, but I go by Brother Art. To respond to your comment on this issue, I believe our Blessed Mother was speaking specifically about souls of those who have passed on. You see, Luke, we have every opportunity to work out our salvation while we’re alive. Once we die, that’s it; there’s nothing more we can do (for ourselves), BUT, if any of the living pray for us, even after we die, God hears THOSE prayers.
I hope this provides some consolation for you, and remember: our God is a loving God and His mercy endures forever!
Regards,
Brother Art
 
God doesn’t withhold necessary graces from anybody. We each, even when we are in the state of mortal sin, are able to receive all the graces necessary to save us from hell at any time. But God doesn’t force these graces upon us. He has already shed His blood for us, down to the last drop; He is under no obligation to give any special particular graces to those obstinate in their refusal of His invitation, who insult Him time and again and are often sure to drag others down along with them. His justice is tempered by His mercy, but it isn’t dead. So when some poor soul is obstinate in their sins He is right and just to punish them. He is not obligated to give them an infinite number of chances or to give them that much more than other, more worthy souls, have received in order to make certain their conversion. Or do you think God very cruel if He doesn’t walk up to some stubborn soul, slap him on the face, and give him a vision of his place in Hell if he continued to sin, if that action would ensure his conversion? No, He is under no obligation to give so much more than is ordinarily available to all souls, and besides, He is greatly tied down by our free will and the maliciousness of our sins.

How kind He is, then, to allow others, who have united themselves with His ultimate Sacrifice, to step in on others’ behalf, to stop the hand of His justice rightly falling upon them. How kind He is to allow us to do the penance they have refused to do, to comfort the Lord in His sorrow, so that they may receive some special grace or other intervention, or perhaps even just a little more time than had originally been allotted them, to come to repentance. None of this having been theirs by right, and God not having refused them the graces open to us all to convert, it is solely His mercy that takes into account the prayers of His just when treating of these cases.
 
There are times when it has clearly been the prayers and sacrifices of others do obtain the graces of conversion and repentance for others who otherwise would have been lost.
It was due to no merit of the murderer whose conversion the young St Therese obtained of God by her prayers and sacrifices. He chose hell by his terrible choice to take another’s life and his refusal to respond to every appeal for his repentance, however, at the last moment he seized and kissed the crucifix held before him. It was not due to his merit, he had chosen hell by his actions (see Matthew 25 verses 31-46) but the prayers and sacrifices of this child obtained free grace from God. Had she not prayed and done penance for him, his choice against love and God would have been eternal. The man’s awful choice is in no way God’s doing, but the child obtained for him a different end. We make our own choice for Love or for no-love. Hell is very much the absence of love, and we cannot bear the absence of love.
As St John teaches, “God is Love” “God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 Jn 4:16)

If you wish to read this encyclical by our Holy Father, DEUS CARITAS EST

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html
 
Hi Luke, my name is Arturo, but I go by Brother Art. To respond to your comment on this issue, I believe our Blessed Mother was speaking specifically about souls of those who have passed on. You see, Luke, we have every opportunity to work out our salvation while we’re alive. Once we die, that’s it; there’s nothing more we can do (for ourselves), BUT, if any of the living pray for us, even after we die, God hears THOSE prayers.
I hope this provides some consolation for you, and remember: our God is a loving God and His mercy endures forever!
Regards,
Brother Art
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A31-46&version=NIV

And perhaps you could find some comfort in that there are people all over the world who offer prayer and sacrifice for all the unknown and forgotten people as well as their own loved ones.
Jesus’ prayer to the Father for us was in today’s reading. Your vocation is to show forth the image of Christ. Pray for people. Sacrifice for them. How that works - we call it a mystery - accept or not, is up to you. We do it because God said so. We’ll understand it when we pass.
I think you’re missing the point? I don’t mean that confrontationally. But anyone who goes to hell ultimately “chooses” to go there. Maybe not directly but we are all held accountable for our individual actions. We can’t blame God because someone goes to hell just because someone else didn’t think to pray for them. If any of us go to hell its because we walked into the flames ourselves. THAT’S what we need to pray for sinners for. Especially for those who its not too late for! God doesn’t set anyone up to fail so I just don’t see it as you do. But this is just my opinion so please take it how you will. Peace be with you.
God doesn’t withhold necessary graces from anybody. We each, even when we are in the state of mortal sin, are able to receive all the graces necessary to save us from hell at any time. But God doesn’t force these graces upon us. He has already shed His blood for us, down to the last drop; He is under no obligation to give any special particular graces to those obstinate in their refusal of His invitation, who insult Him time and again and are often sure to drag others down along with them. His justice is tempered by His mercy, but it isn’t dead. So when some poor soul is obstinate in their sins He is right and just to punish them. He is not obligated to give them an infinite number of chances or to give them that much more than other, more worthy souls, have received in order to make certain their conversion. Or do you think God very cruel if He doesn’t walk up to some stubborn soul, slap him on the face, and give him a vision of his place in Hell if he continued to sin, if that action would ensure his conversion? No, He is under no obligation to give so much more than is ordinarily available to all souls, and besides, He is greatly tied down by our free will and the maliciousness of our sins.

How kind He is, then, to allow others, who have united themselves with His ultimate Sacrifice, to step in on others’ behalf, to stop the hand of His justice rightly falling upon them. How kind He is to allow us to do the penance they have refused to do, to comfort the Lord in His sorrow, so that they may receive some special grace or other intervention, or perhaps even just a little more time than had originally been allotted them, to come to repentance. None of this having been theirs by right, and God not having refused them the graces open to us all to convert, it is solely His mercy that takes into account the prayers of His just when treating of these cases.
There are times when it has clearly been the prayers and sacrifices of others do obtain the graces of conversion and repentance for others who otherwise would have been lost.
It was due to no merit of the murderer whose conversion the young St Therese obtained of God by her prayers and sacrifices. He chose hell by his terrible choice to take another’s life and his refusal to respond to every appeal for his repentance, however, at the last moment he seized and kissed the crucifix held before him. It was not due to his merit, he had chosen hell by his actions (see Matthew 25 verses 31-46) but the prayers and sacrifices of this child obtained free grace from God. Had she not prayed and done penance for him, his choice against love and God would have been eternal. The man’s awful choice is in no way God’s doing, but the child obtained for him a different end. We make our own choice for Love or for no-love. Hell is very much the absence of love, and we cannot bear the absence of love.
As St John teaches, “God is Love” “God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 Jn 4:16)

If you wish to read this encyclical by our Holy Father, DEUS CARITAS EST

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html
Brothers sisters are right. I thought that it was necessary to explain the matter.

**Psalm 84
5 Happy are those whose strength is in you,
in whose heart are the highways to Zion.
6 As they go through the valley of Baca
they make it a place of springs;
the early rain also covers it with pools.
7 They go from strength to strength;
the God of gods will be seen in Zion. **
 
Mary apparently said at Fatima:
I cannot believe this. I abhor the idea that God withholds graces necessary for someone’s conversion if other people aren’t praying or offering penances for them; as if God values using prayers and penances more than the bottom line of saving souls. As if God was looking down at a poor sinner, saying “Wow, I’d really like to help this sinner so much and bring him back to my loving heart and save him from eternal hell, but Joe Smith didn’t pray or sacrifice for him, so I cannot! To hell he goes!”

Am I expected to believe God works out our salvation this way?
I feel your pain. I never quite understood this area of Catholicism. I’ve read the others’ generous responses and still it just doesn’t make a lot of sense to my mortal mind. 🤷

Alan
 
I feel your pain. I never quite understood this area of Catholicism. I’ve read the others’ generous responses and still it just doesn’t make a lot of sense to my mortal mind. 🤷

Alan
Yes, Alan!

We mortal minds can not see the whole pictures now, we can understand part now, but we must confindence in the infinite goodness of the Father.

look at in here, we love this Forum as a home, but when I saw posters, under the name said : banned, I felt so uneasy and so pity them, I do not know why they been banned, but I believe there must be a reason, I trust our Forum leaders can see the whole pictures, but we can not see it, and what they do is for the best!

I trust and love in God infinite goodness and I trust and love our Catholicism and leaders the infinite goodness!
 
I trust and love in God infinite goodness and I trust and love our Catholicism and leaders the infinite goodness!
Thank you for your nice answer. Does the Church infallibly teach that whether we go to hell, and/or how much time we spend in purgatory, is determined at least in part by whether other living people on earth say prayers for us? Or is that just a popular notion? If other people I may or may not even know can pray me out of hell or purgatory, then can they just as well pray me into hell or into a longer stay in purgatory?

Alan
 
I think the reason we need to pray and make sacrifices for sinners, is not because God doesn’t want to show them mercy, but because He wants to help sinners with us taking part in His work. He is the one who inspires the faithful to pray for sinners - so that through their prayers, they can come to Him. This is how His love is demonstrated in the world, when we pray for one another.

In many private revelations, Jesus talks about how He really longs to show people His mercy, but also says that we need to make sacrifices for them. So it’s not because He doesn’t want to but for another reason.

God bless
 
Thank you for your nice answer. Does the Church infallibly teach that whether we go to hell, and/or how much time we spend in purgatory, is determined at least in part by whether other living people on earth say prayers for us? Or is that just a popular notion? If other people I may or may not even know can pray me out of hell or purgatory, then can they just as well pray me into hell or into a longer stay in purgatory?

Alan
I do not know,

Alan, I read that -“so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.” -Hebrews 9:28

Bless God! Praise the Lord!
Gracious Lord!:angel1:
 
Thank you for your nice answer. Does the Church infallibly teach that whether we go to hell, and/or how much time we spend in purgatory, is determined at least in part by whether other living people on earth say prayers for us? Or is that just a popular notion? If other people I may or may not even know can pray me out of hell or purgatory, then can they just as well pray me into hell or into a longer stay in purgatory?

Alan
No, you are inferring too much. We merit hell or purgatory solely due to our own sins. The Church has always strongly encouraged us to pray for the deceased precisely because we can assist those already in purgatory with our prayers. We’re just dipping into the Church’s spiritual treasury on behalf of the holy souls in purgatory or poor sinners on earth.
 
God is fake. God is fake!
God is not real
the devil is the way to be
go to hell you lovely people whom i have just insulted amazingly well!!!
 
Satan gave me a notebook of amazing power.
And Owl City.

Peace out
 
No, you are inferring too much. We merit hell or purgatory solely due to our own sins. The Church has always strongly encouraged us to pray for the deceased precisely because we can assist those already in purgatory with our prayers. We’re just dipping into the Church’s spiritual treasury on behalf of the holy souls in purgatory or poor sinners on earth.
OK. I guess we just have to be satisfied with whatever notion we have of what “assist” means. 🙂

Alan
 
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