F
- Status
M
mrs_abbott
Guest
I, too, don’t think all non-Christians are doomed. God is merciful and will judge them according to how they lived their lives based on what they knew to be right/wrong and true/false.
There is only one God so even though the Hindus and Muslims think they’re worshipping Allah or whoever, it is in fact the same God that Christians worship. They just give God a different name. Granted, that doesn’t make it ok but that’s just what they’ve been taught. They don’t know any better.
K
KarenNC
Guest
True, from a Christian viewpoint
. However, from the viewpoint and experience of millions, the Christian God is not the only, or even the highest, God (though most polytheists would likely allow that the Christian God may well exist but that His or His followers’ claims that He is the only God are incorrect). Based on the belief and real spiritual experiences of these people (which are just as real as those of Christians when compared by the same criteria), there are a multitude of Gods.
K
KarenNC
Guest
Thre are many Gods, so even though the Christians and the Muslims and the Jews think they are worshipping the only God, they really are only worshipping one of the many Gods, even if their God claims to be the only one. They just don’t think that the other Gods exist. Granted they are mistaken, but that’s just what they’ve been taught. They don’t know any better.
M
mrs_abbott
Guest
How do you figure there are many Gods?
K
KarenNC
Guest
Personal experience. The experience of millions of people over millenia of deities that are by any reasonable measure not identical.
How do you figure there is only One?
M
mrs_abbott
Guest
Maybe I just have a “mono” state of mind but I think it’d be easier to believe in just One God, as opposed to many. If you have many gods, who is the greatest and most powerful? Who is supreme?
Plus, as a bible-believing Catholic-Christian, how can I deny the obvious fact that there is only one God?
K
KarenNC
Guest
Maybe I just have a “mono” state of mind but I think it’d be easier to believe in just One God, as opposed to many. If you have many gods, who is the greatest and most powerful? Who is supreme?
And I find that I have to perform all kinds of mental and logical gymnastics to make any kind of a case for there being only one God, much less a trinitarian one.
As to my Gods, there isn’t one who is supreme in the sense of being all powerful, all knowing, different in substance from any ofther and who stands as the only God for the entire world. The Gods are not omniscient, omnipotent, etc. Zeus is the head of my pantheon, but it is more in the “highest in rank or authority” sense, not the “highest in quality” one. For instance, I don’t believe He is “more” of a God than the other Gods any more than that the President of the United States is qualitatively “more” of a human or different in substance from other humans, although the President certainly has a different role than other humans within our American society. Likewise, I don’t believe that Zeus is the only God for all humanity any more than I believe that Bush is the only leader for all people in the world or that the laws he and the US government set up are binding on all peoples of the world.
There may be some sort of unified “ground of being” from which both all humans and all the Gods sprang, I don’t know. If so, it is so far removed from humanity’s ability to perceive or interact with it that I simply don’t see it as relevant to my life in any meaningful way anymore than the Horesehead Nebula is relevant to an ant. Whether the Gods are capable of having a relationship with that “ground of being” (presuming it exists), only They know.
Plus, as a bible-believing Catholic-Christian, how can I deny the obvious fact that there is only one God?
Didn’t expect you to, but as a polytheistic Hellenic Neopagan, I can no more deny the obvious fact that there are many Gods.
And I find that I have to perform all kinds of mental and logical gymnastics to make any kind of a case for there being only one God, much less a trinitarian one.
As to my Gods, there isn’t one who is supreme in the sense of being all powerful, all knowing, different in substance from any ofther and who stands as the only God for the entire world. The Gods are not omniscient, omnipotent, etc. Zeus is the head of my pantheon, but it is more in the “highest in rank or authority” sense, not the “highest in quality” one. For instance, I don’t believe He is “more” of a God than the other Gods any more than that the President of the United States is qualitatively “more” of a human or different in substance from other humans, although the President certainly has a different role than other humans within our American society. Likewise, I don’t believe that Zeus is the only God for all humanity any more than I believe that Bush is the only leader for all people in the world or that the laws he and the US government set up are binding on all peoples of the world.
There may be some sort of unified “ground of being” from which both all humans and all the Gods sprang, I don’t know. If so, it is so far removed from humanity’s ability to perceive or interact with it that I simply don’t see it as relevant to my life in any meaningful way anymore than the Horesehead Nebula is relevant to an ant. Whether the Gods are capable of having a relationship with that “ground of being” (presuming it exists), only They know.
Plus, as a bible-believing Catholic-Christian, how can I deny the obvious fact that there is only one God?
Didn’t expect you to
, but as a polytheistic Hellenic Neopagan, I can no more deny the obvious fact that there are many Gods.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Zeus, as in the Greek god? And you believe in him because of personal experience or because of the testimony of others?
I don’t ‘claim’ the Christian God–He claims, as He created, me. And I base this on personal experience and the testimony of others. Zeus has never claimed to be the ‘one-and-only’, so with that kind of rationalization, neo-followers (yes, neo, there is no unbroken succession of Zeus worshippers from ancient Greece to today) can look oh-so-tolerant “accepting” other ‘gods’ in a pantheistic, panglossian pseudocultural festival of ‘you do it your way, I’ll do it mine, I’m OK-you’re OK’ gobbledy gook.
Not to be offensive, I hope, but quite frankly, this indifferentism/relativism bogus ‘neopaganism’ along with other false cults, religious and secular alike, isn’t even logical from the get-go.
If everything goes, even the stuff that frankly contradicts itself, then the world itself is chaos and there is no real ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, only one’s own finite little self and its sensual experiences (in the idea of 5 senses). In fact, there is no way to even discern that something could be ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. How could there be? There is only ‘experience’ of the senses and what “i” want or desire to be.
But if there is one ‘real right’, then other things, to various degrees, are ‘less right’ to flat out wrong. The world is rational and balanced (in the philosophical Aristotelian sense), and the mere fact that we can reason proves the above.
For if there is no ‘reality’, there is no reason. How can we even think, if there is no ‘reason’ that we could think? How do we even pick up one stick and another and know that we have two sticks, if there is no reason? We might as well think that we have sung a stick, or created the sticks, or call them jellybeans. . .if there is no order, no reality, we cannot even make the leap from “this is A”, “this is not A”!! let alone any further logical premises. We reason. . .therefore, there is reality. Therefore, we must explore and interpret based on the proven hypothesis that there is ‘one’ right.
K
KarenNC
Guest
Zeus, as in the Greek god? And you believe in him because of personal experience or because of the testimony of others?
Actually, I have personal experience of Athena, Hestia, Persephone, Demeter and Hermes, the others in the pantheon more indirectly. I see no reason, given that I have experienced multiple deities, to doubt that others who say they have done so, have as well.
**I don’t ‘claim’ the Christian God–He claims, as He created, me. And I base this on personal experience and the testimony of others. **
Fair enough. I don’t believe that I ever used the word “claimed” in relation to my understanding of the Gods, rather that said that I base my faith on exactly the same things you do.
Zeus has never claimed to be the ‘one-and-only’,
Nope. Would be kind of ridiculous if He had.
** so with that kind of rationalization, neo-followers (yes, neo, there is no unbroken succession of Zeus worshippers from ancient Greece to today) **
You will see that I quite deliberately include the “neo-.” I have never said there was an unbroken succession. Is that a requirement for the existence of a God? If for some reason there were suddenly no people currently alive who worship the Christian God, would He then cease to exist? Is His existence and power dependent on the number of worshippers? Did Christ not exist until Bethlehem? Or did He only become God later after x number of people believed He was so?
can look oh-so-tolerant “accepting” other ‘gods’ in a pantheistic, panglossian pseudocultural festival of ‘you do it your way, I’ll do it mine, I’m OK-you’re OK’ gobbledy gook.
You have misunderstood. I quite patently think and have explicitly stated that I fully believe monotheists, including Christians, are wrong. If I did not believe that my religion was the best way to describe my experience of divinity and spiritual reality, I would have to be pretty hypocritical to follow it.
**Not to be offensive, I hope, but quite frankly, this indifferentism/relativism bogus ‘neopaganism’ along with other false cults, religious and secular alike, isn’t even logical from the get-go. **
Well, I will let those who follow such defend them.
**If everything goes, even the stuff that frankly contradicts itself **
You are going to have to be more specific here.
cont.
Actually, I have personal experience of Athena, Hestia, Persephone, Demeter and Hermes, the others in the pantheon more indirectly. I see no reason, given that I have experienced multiple deities, to doubt that others who say they have done so, have as well.
**I don’t ‘claim’ the Christian God–He claims, as He created, me. And I base this on personal experience and the testimony of others. **
Fair enough. I don’t believe that I ever used the word “claimed” in relation to my understanding of the Gods, rather that said that I base my faith on exactly the same things you do.
Zeus has never claimed to be the ‘one-and-only’,
Nope. Would be kind of ridiculous if He had.
** so with that kind of rationalization, neo-followers (yes, neo, there is no unbroken succession of Zeus worshippers from ancient Greece to today) **
You will see that I quite deliberately include the “neo-.” I have never said there was an unbroken succession. Is that a requirement for the existence of a God? If for some reason there were suddenly no people currently alive who worship the Christian God, would He then cease to exist? Is His existence and power dependent on the number of worshippers? Did Christ not exist until Bethlehem? Or did He only become God later after x number of people believed He was so?
can look oh-so-tolerant “accepting” other ‘gods’ in a pantheistic, panglossian pseudocultural festival of ‘you do it your way, I’ll do it mine, I’m OK-you’re OK’ gobbledy gook.
You have misunderstood. I quite patently think and have explicitly stated that I fully believe monotheists, including Christians, are wrong. If I did not believe that my religion was the best way to describe my experience of divinity and spiritual reality, I would have to be pretty hypocritical to follow it.
**Not to be offensive, I hope, but quite frankly, this indifferentism/relativism bogus ‘neopaganism’ along with other false cults, religious and secular alike, isn’t even logical from the get-go. **
Well, I will let those who follow such defend them.
**If everything goes, even the stuff that frankly contradicts itself **
You are going to have to be more specific here.
cont.
K
KarenNC
Guest
, then the world itself is chaos and there is no real ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, only one’s own finite little self and its sensual experiences (in the idea of 5 senses). In fact, there is no way to even discern that something could be ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. How could there be? There is only ‘experience’ of the senses and what “i” want or desire to be.
So the rest of your argument rests on the idea that Christians are the only ones who have ever been able to reason? Who have ever had a moral or ethical code? Who have ever had laws governing their societies? Do you have the slightest idea how much of Christianity owes itself to Hellenic culture?
theologytoday.ptsem.edu/oct1987/v44-3-symposium2.htm
From an article by Diogenes Allen, Stuart Professor of Philosophy at Princeton Theological Seminary
"Christian theology is inherently Hellenic. I use the word “Hellenic” instead of “Greek” to refer to the spread of Greek culture and ways of thinking to non-Greek peoples, an influence which received powerful impetus from the conquests of Alexander the Great and Rome. Christian theology is inherently Hellenic because theology could not exist as a discipline without the kind of intellectual curiosity which was unique to ancient Greece.
The ancient Egyptians said that the Greeks were like children because they were always asking “Why?” It is not that other ancient peoples, including the Israetities, did not ask for the whys and wherefores of many things. It is rather that in ancient Greece the practice became a matter of principle. The Greeks did not think of every significant question that has ever been raised, but they asked questions persistently and systematically as a deliberate program until they developed the very
idea of disciplines-areas of theoretical knowledge defined by principles and investigated by appropriate methods of inquiry. A practical question, such as the need to determine the boundaries of a piece of property, may start an investigation. But the various rules of thumb concerning the relation of lines to angles were not allowed to remain just rules of thumb, even though they were perfectly satisfactory for all practical purposes. The Greeks pushed until they created the theoretical science of geometry, a discipline that continues to yield new knowledge today. This particular attitude led to the very notion of a “discipline.” In carrying out their inquiries, the ancient Greeks became the founders of many of our traditional disciplines, including theology itself."
The systematic search for reasons, or for the logos for anything and everything, is something we today take for granted. It is part of our mental make-up. We do it automatically. We share with the ancient Greeks a desire to push back the domain of the unknown and to unveil all mysteries. We also share with them the concept of disciplines which have their distinctive principles and methods of inquiry. Likewise, this was part of the mental make-up of the early Church Fathers who fashioned Christian doctrines in a decisive way in the first centuries.
The early Church Fathers sought to retain a proper sense of mystery. They recognized that however much we may want to achieve complete comprehension, God’s ontological status is such that it exceeds our comprehension. Thus, God, even in self-revelation, remains hidden in that very revelation. Nonetheless, they were persistent in asking of the revealed truth, “How is that so”? Their minds were Hellenic to that extent, to the extent that they created the discipline of theology. Thus, the Hellenic influence on Christianity is much more than the use of particular Greek philosophical concepts, which may or may not have outlived their usefulness. An essential part is an attitude of mind that prizes coherence, that presses as a matter of principle the questions “Why and how is that so?”, that searches for principles to organize diverse things, and that seeks to discover the basis or ground for every claim that is made. There would have been no such discipline as Christian theology without the Bible and without a believing community. But likewise we would not have the discipline of theology without the Hellenic attitude in Christians that leads them to press questions about the Bible and the relation of the Bible to other knowledge. When people call for the purging of Greek philosophy from Christian theology, then, unless they are referring only to specific ideas or concepts, they are really calling for an end to the discipline of theology itself. "
So the rest of your argument rests on the idea that Christians are the only ones who have ever been able to reason? Who have ever had a moral or ethical code? Who have ever had laws governing their societies? Do you have the slightest idea how much of Christianity owes itself to Hellenic culture?
theologytoday.ptsem.edu/oct1987/v44-3-symposium2.htm
From an article by Diogenes Allen, Stuart Professor of Philosophy at Princeton Theological Seminary
"Christian theology is inherently Hellenic. I use the word “Hellenic” instead of “Greek” to refer to the spread of Greek culture and ways of thinking to non-Greek peoples, an influence which received powerful impetus from the conquests of Alexander the Great and Rome. Christian theology is inherently Hellenic because theology could not exist as a discipline without the kind of intellectual curiosity which was unique to ancient Greece.
The ancient Egyptians said that the Greeks were like children because they were always asking “Why?” It is not that other ancient peoples, including the Israetities, did not ask for the whys and wherefores of many things. It is rather that in ancient Greece the practice became a matter of principle. The Greeks did not think of every significant question that has ever been raised, but they asked questions persistently and systematically as a deliberate program until they developed the very
idea of disciplines-areas of theoretical knowledge defined by principles and investigated by appropriate methods of inquiry. A practical question, such as the need to determine the boundaries of a piece of property, may start an investigation. But the various rules of thumb concerning the relation of lines to angles were not allowed to remain just rules of thumb, even though they were perfectly satisfactory for all practical purposes. The Greeks pushed until they created the theoretical science of geometry, a discipline that continues to yield new knowledge today. This particular attitude led to the very notion of a “discipline.” In carrying out their inquiries, the ancient Greeks became the founders of many of our traditional disciplines, including theology itself."
The systematic search for reasons, or for the logos for anything and everything, is something we today take for granted. It is part of our mental make-up. We do it automatically. We share with the ancient Greeks a desire to push back the domain of the unknown and to unveil all mysteries. We also share with them the concept of disciplines which have their distinctive principles and methods of inquiry. Likewise, this was part of the mental make-up of the early Church Fathers who fashioned Christian doctrines in a decisive way in the first centuries.
The early Church Fathers sought to retain a proper sense of mystery. They recognized that however much we may want to achieve complete comprehension, God’s ontological status is such that it exceeds our comprehension. Thus, God, even in self-revelation, remains hidden in that very revelation. Nonetheless, they were persistent in asking of the revealed truth, “How is that so”? Their minds were Hellenic to that extent, to the extent that they created the discipline of theology. Thus, the Hellenic influence on Christianity is much more than the use of particular Greek philosophical concepts, which may or may not have outlived their usefulness. An essential part is an attitude of mind that prizes coherence, that presses as a matter of principle the questions “Why and how is that so?”, that searches for principles to organize diverse things, and that seeks to discover the basis or ground for every claim that is made. There would have been no such discipline as Christian theology without the Bible and without a believing community. But likewise we would not have the discipline of theology without the Hellenic attitude in Christians that leads them to press questions about the Bible and the relation of the Bible to other knowledge. When people call for the purging of Greek philosophy from Christian theology, then, unless they are referring only to specific ideas or concepts, they are really calling for an end to the discipline of theology itself. "
V
Valke2
Guest
As I non-Christian, I’d have to say that yes, my faith provides me with access to and a relationship with God.
M
mrs_abbott
Guest
The Greek gods concept makes sense too, I’ll give you that. I just know too much about the Christian God to dive into that.Plus, as a bible-believing Catholic-Christian, how can I deny the obvious fact that there is only one God?
Didn’t expect you to
Thanks for your perspective, though. I think you’re the first person I’ve met who believes in multiple gods.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Actually, that wasn’t my argument at all. Aristotle was not Christian–in fact, he was part of Hellenic culture. I don’t know where you got the idea that I was implying that only Christians can reason. Everybody ‘can’ reason–that’s the point. But ‘only’ reason can ‘only’ go so far. Without a basis for ‘reason’ there is nothing but chaos. Without an ultimate focus for reason, it becomes stagnant and static.
K
KarenNC
Guest
Sorry, might have been after you referred to my religous beliefs as
“a pantheistic, panglossian pseudocultural festival of ‘you do it your way, I’ll do it mine, I’m OK-you’re OK’ gobbledy gook,” and "indifferentism/ relativism bogus ‘neopaganism’ " that “isn’t even logical from the get-go.” BTW, I am really curious as to how you could construe those statements as anything other than not only offensive, but aggressively so.
I may have been mistaken in presuming that when you mention “only one real ‘right’” that you were referring to Christianity and that the “mere fact that we can reason” proves it.
Why do you presume there is no ultimate focus for reason in other religions and that they are therefore totally chaotic? That they have no basis? That they are “only” reason?
T
TOP
Guest
He said gobbledy gook. 
F
FCEGM
Guest
The topic, however, as set up but Mike, is not whether there is One God or many, but whether the One God as believed in and worshipped by Christians relates in a different manner (and saves in a different manner) to those who believe elsewise (such as Buddhists, Hindus, etc.) than He does to those who by divine grace believe in Him precisely as the One God and in Christ as God Incarnate through Whom all mankind is redeemed.True, from a Christian viewpoint
K
KarenNC
Guest
And you don’t think taking into account how millions of those very people perceive divinity (as multiple distinct individuals rather than singular) is relevant to the question that the OP put out:
“What if God purposely relates (relate may be the wrong word to use) to different cultures and people in different ways?..However, is the Christian God actually maybe the same as the Hindu one, the Muslim one, etc.?”
F
FCEGM
Guest
It would only be relevant in the negative as a response to the above question (illustrating how untenable his question becomes when faced with polytheism), or if the OP were to rephrase the question into something like “is the Christian God the same as the Hindu oneS.”
F
fin
Guest
Of course Jesus is the only way to heaven, whether you’re Christian or not. He is the only one who can save you.
I do understand what the OP meant. i often read here on this forums about not the have anything to do with the occult, paganism, etc.
i do agree with that, definitely. but there are also things(which many have said is being evil) which i think is not evil(and i would not mention). for we are we to say that God, in all His greatness, cannot do? Remember guys, there IS natural law. We do not totally understand how this world works, scientifically. Yet many here say that practicing this particular thing is bad, yet being totally uninformed of the art. How do you know it’s not part of the wonder? so i think we should not as if we know everything about science and natural law. God works in mysterious ways.
I do understand what the OP meant. i often read here on this forums about not the have anything to do with the occult, paganism, etc.
i do agree with that, definitely. but there are also things(which many have said is being evil) which i think is not evil(and i would not mention). for we are we to say that God, in all His greatness, cannot do? Remember guys, there IS natural law. We do not totally understand how this world works, scientifically. Yet many here say that practicing this particular thing is bad, yet being totally uninformed of the art. How do you know it’s not part of the wonder? so i think we should not as if we know everything about science and natural law. God works in mysterious ways.
- Status